What goes around...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Guvnor. Show Guvnor's posts

    What goes around...

    Lets be honest, the owners and management of the sox have the team they deserve....for the way september 2011 was handled, the disgraceful hatchet job on francona, the fact that the team owner didnt even call the manager he was firing until 5 months later....this is not the way to treat people, regardless of how it ended at baltimore.

    As mazz, shaugnessy have observed, this is a team full of holes, a desperate bull pen, fading veterans (papi, youk, beckett) and mediocre journeymen (aviles, sweeney, ross, dmac, salty, shopp) that play with little heart (and over paid crawford the worst signing in the clubs history for the dollar), assembled this winter to cut costs as well as corners. Pedroia is the sole exception, even Ells is playing like he wants no part of it, gonzo will hit but he cant even be bothered to work on his speed over the winter.

    We have 1 starting pitcher that would get into the rays rotation, maybe 2 in the yanks, whilst jays and Os are improving.

    Sox didnt make post season last year, and this season there is no doubt the team is weaker.

    could be a 500 season, hope bobby v has plenty of 1 liners to go, for his sake.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from drpjn. Show drpjn's posts

    Re: What goes around...


    This whole experience lends credence to the fact that baseball games are won on the field while team synergy and chemistry certainly contribute to team success.

    Seems like yesterday Beckett was predicting a 100 win season (spring 2011) and the excitement about that lineup was in the air, everywhere.

    At this time, the focus is on gross underachievement, bad contracts, finger pointing, and the need to identify the clubhouse mole.

    Welcome to Snitchgate!
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: What goes around...

    No chemistry...at all..If you dont believe chemistry has a lot to do with a team success, just look at the 04 Sox AFTER Nomar left...
    JH has proved, at least to me, to be a snake in the grass owner who will throw ANYONE under the bus just as long as it makes him look good in his eyes...The way they treated Tito.. And just let me add that I was in favor of Francona leaving, it HAD to be done the way the season ended, just not the way he was kicked in the azz on the way out..The way Henry TRIED to take himself out of the CC signing, claiming he wasnt for it yet signed off on it..
    I still believe in this team, but I truly believe that some personel changes are needed...In Detroit after Beckett coverd 1st on a GB to Gonzo, it looked like the 2 wanted nothing to do with eachother...
    From where I sit, it just doesnt look like a lot of these guys like eachother or have eachothers back..But hey, thats just one mans opinion..I will continue to cheer my team on and hope that I am wrong...
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: What goes around...

    Hey Guv,
    To start with Francona is as much to blame for how his tenure ended as is the owner and lets not forget our dearly departed GM. All of whom played a role in the demise of the team last year and each played a role in the construction of the roster. All of whom are big boys, and if any of them feel under appreciated or slighted and need a hug, can get a dog.

    I will alway have great respect and gratitude for what Francona accomplished with the Red Sox, and my hope is that whatever ill will may exist between he and Henry, is put aside in the interest of allowing we the fans to show our appreciation for the 8 years that Francona gave to this team, alibiet, while being a handsomely rewarded, I might add. Since we are not privy to the extent or the reality of a rift between the two. I choose not to speculate and instead have already moved on and closed that chapter in Red Sox history, which to his & Epstein credit, along with the ownership group, today represents the glory years. With two championship banners proadly on display in a park and served to lift a heavy burden of a nation of fans and a city that endured 86 years of wait til next year...

    That was then, this is now...The fact of the matter is that this years team. Entering the season was compromised due to having 400 innings and some 26M in payroll tied up on the DL in two starting pitchers (Lackey & Matsusaka). Both of whom along with Buccholz were at the heart of us falling short last year (chicken and beer aside). Thus we opened the season with the need to fill two starting roles and the hope is that we can get a productive season from Buccholz. The roster was further compromised with the depature of our once unhittable, but not so much any more, Closer who decided to take his services to Philly. Thank you very much Johnathan Papelbon otherwise known as cinco-ocho, enjoy your stay in Philly...

    Out with the old, in with the new...Enter Ben Cherington & Bobby Valentine...Given the fiscal restraints and the current contracts of those still under the teams control. Cherington given the hand he was dealt. Went to work on retooling the roster in preparation for the season ahead. He along with the ownership group made thier 1st move by hiring Valentine. A media savy baseball guy with an infectiuos personality. One that has the moixy to stand up to the pressures of managing in Boston and dealing with what can only be described as a omnipresent media horde, many of whom like those you quoted above. That look for or make up story lines in hopes of creating a stir. While the jury is still out on whehter or not Bobby V can indeed lead this team on the field, his resume and baseball accumen suggest that if the players play and the management team does their part to provide him with the resources he needs. In the end, Regardless of what Mazz & Shaunessey pen, the Sox will be in the mix all year and looking to the future should continue to be among the best teams in the game.

    I find it hard that anyone is questioning the effort put forth by the players 6 games into the season...frankly it's silly. New flash both teams on the field play to win the game.....Further, when we look at the roster makeup of the current team while we may not be on paper the best team in the game and cleary not the best team in recent Red Sox history. Rarely does the best team on paper get to raise the trophy at the end of the year. Just ask the Texas Rangers and the Philadelphia Phillies...who were both prohibitive favorites to win it last year...however someone forgot to tell the St. Louis Cardinals...

    As for the current state of affairs...wins ands losses aside even if we were 6-0 right now it wouldn't change the current issues that confront this team. If we believe that a season of baseball is akin to running the Boston Martathon. We're a long ways from "Heartbreak Hill" and the Prudential is but a silloutte in the skyline ahead.

    If this years team is to contend it starts with getting productive and healthy season from Lester, Beckett & Buccholz...period.

    Thereafter we need one or both of Dobront and/or Bard have to step up and stake thier claim to a long term spot in the rotation and pitch to a sub 4.5 era from the 4 and 5 spots and our starters a colective must give us length...meaning that as a group if we include Matsusaka (August), along with Cook and Miller to the equasion. Of the 1500 innings or so that it takes to navigate a full season of baseball...Our staters have to pull thier fair share of the load which if we use an averge of 6 IP per start which is the threshold that is used to define quality in the big leagues today. That equates to a minimum of 972 innings and ideally they'd as a collective approach the 1000 innings plateau which based on simple math means that they'd average 6 1/3 innings per start...not a heavy burden from where I sit.

    If one buys into the age old adage, that the key to playing winning baseball is pitching, defense and timely hitting. Cleary we're not going anywhere is our big three doesn't carry the load.

    On I march...Today more so than in any other era in the game. The bullpen and in particular the backend of the bullpen plays a key role is securing victory in close games where the tying run come to the plate with a man on base in a 2 run game...Unfortunately due to the injury to our closer, today the pen is our greatest question mark. It was not helped by the injury to Bailey, it is not however a fatal flaw today, it is merely a concern that needs to be addressed...What we need is for Aceves to step up and take on the role of the closer while Bailey rehabs. It is then incumbent on Melancon and Morales to bridge the gap between the starter and the closer in close games and if they struggle and it become a fatal flaw then it's is the responsibility if Cherington to look to aquire another arm something I am certain he has already begun to do his use dilligence on...Then if and when Bailey returns after the all star break they can ineffect with both he and Matsusaka add two quaity arms to bolster the teams depth without the need to trade away assets...My guess is that come May 1st he and Valentine will have a pretty good idea of what they need or not in the short term with the end game in mind...

    Defensively IMHO our only real concern is Avilies but he's more than servicable and if he hits .300 his bat will compensate for the handful of errors he'll make.

    As for our lineup...1-6 were as good as anyone in game, it's too early to conclude that we won't score...7-8-9 were not as stout as we once were, but we're not awful either, frankly only the catchers spot in the lineup IMHO is at or below the league average...Our bench once Crawford returns IMHO is the best we've had in years. Though I would like to see Iggy or a guy with his defensive ability at the ready to be our late innings defensive replacement @ SS but Punto, Shoppach, Sweeney & Ross are all gamers.

    So with all that said, not sure that Larry Luccino or Ben Cherington need Mazz or Shaunessey to point out the obviuos issues that confront the team today...My guess is that both had forgotten more about the game than either of those scribes will ever learn...As with every season there is a natural process that all teams undergo the Red Sox are no different...the key is as the season progresses relative to the competition and the health of the key contributors will the Red Sox ownership empower Cherington with the resources he needs to address injury and underperformance and if we are in postion to make a strong push at seasons end will they add the players nessasary to bolster the roster for the stretch run...till will tell...

    In the meantime I'm pulling hard for Dobrount and Bard to have success and to live what is for every young ball players a lifetime goal of being a big league pitcher...I'll also continue to hope for the best and if all things are equal and we find ourselves in the hunt. I will come July 1st through August 1st expect that Henry and the ownership group step up and make available the financial resources needed to add payroll if nessasary in support of Cherington and Valentine...In the best interest of the Boston Red Sox Baseball Club of the American League...
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: What goes around...

    AGon, whom I love as a player on our team, is not a leader. On the field he needs another hitter behind him who is a 35 homer threat, and in the clubhouse he simply is not capable of rectifying the chemistry.  

    We may have to wait until 2013 but this team will need outside help.

    I can see Youk, Beckett, Dice-K, Ortiz, and Clay all gone this winter if this team misses the play-offs.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from YOUKILLUS20. Show YOUKILLUS20's posts

    Re: What goes around...

    In Response to Re: What goes around...:
    Hey Guv, To start with Francona is as much to blame for how his tenure ended as is the owner and lets not forget our dearly departed GM. All of whom played a role in the demise of the team last year and each played a role in the construction of the roster. All of whom are big boys, and if any of them feel under appreciated or slighted and need a hug, can get a dog. I will alway have great respect and gratitude for what Francona accomplished with the Red Sox, and my hope is that whatever ill will may exist between he and Henry, is put aside in the interest of allowing we the fans to show our appreciation for the 8 years that Francona gave to this team, alibiet, while being a handsomely rewarded, I might add. Since we are not privy to the extent or the reality of a rift between the two. I choose not to speculate and instead have already moved on and closed that chapter in Red Sox history, which to his & Epstein credit, along with the ownership group, today represents the glory years. With two championship banners proadly on display in a park and served to lift a heavy burden of a nation of fans and a city that endured 86 years of wait til next year... That was then, this is now...The fact of the matter is that this years team. Entering the season was compromised due to having 400 innings and some 26M in payroll tied up on the DL in two starting pitchers (Lackey & Matsusaka). Both of whom along with Buccholz were at the heart of us falling short last year (chicken and beer aside). Thus we opened the season with the need to fill two starting roles and the hope is that we can get a productive season from Buccholz. The roster was further compromised with the depature of our once unhittable, but not so much any more, Closer who decided to take his services to Philly. Thank you very much Johnathan Papelbon otherwise known as cinco-ocho, enjoy your stay in Philly... Out with the old, in with the new...Enter Ben Cherington & Bobby Valentine...Given the fiscal restraints and the current contracts of those still under the teams control. Cherington given the hand he was dealt. Went to work on retooling the roster in preparation for the season ahead. He along with the ownership group made thier 1st move by hiring Valentine. A media savy baseball guy with an infectiuos personality. One that has the moixy to stand up to the pressures of managing in Boston and dealing with what can only be described as a omnipresent media horde, many of whom like those you quoted above. That look for or make up story lines in hopes of creating a stir. While the jury is still out on whehter or not Bobby V can indeed lead this team on the field, his resume and baseball accumen suggest that if the players play and the management team does their part to provide him with the resources he needs. In the end, Regardless of what Mazz & Shaunessey pen, the Sox will be in the mix all year and looking to the future should continue to be among the best teams in the game. I find it hard that anyone is questioning the effort put forth by the players 6 games into the season ...frankly it's silly. New flash both teams on the field play to win the game.....Further, when we look at the roster makeup of the current team while we may not be on paper the best team in the game and cleary not the best team in recent Red Sox history. Rarely does the best team on paper get to raise the trophy at the end of the year. Just ask the Texas Rangers and the Philadelphia Phillies...who were both prohibitive favorites to win it last year...however someone forgot to tell the St. Louis Cardinals... As for the current state of affairs...wins ands losses aside even if we were 6-0 right now it wouldn't change the current issues that confront this team. If we believe that a season of baseball is akin to running the Boston Martathon. We're a long ways from "Heartbreak Hill" and the Prudential is but a silloutte in the skyline ahead. If this years team is to contend it starts with getting productive and healthy season from Lester, Beckett & Buccholz...period. Thereafter we need one or both of Dobront and/or Bard have to step up and stake thier claim to a long term spot in the rotation and pitch to a sub 4.5 era from the 4 and 5 spots and our starters a colective must give us length...meaning that as a group if we include Matsusaka (August), along with Cook and Miller to the equasion. Of the 1500 innings or so that it takes to navigate a full season of baseball...Our staters have to pull thier fair share of the load which if we use an averge of 6 IP per start which is the threshold that is used to define quality in the big leagues today. That equates to a minimum of 972 innings and ideally they'd as a collective approach the 1000 innings plateau which based on simple math means that they'd average 6 1/3 innings per start...not a heavy burden from where I sit. If one buys into the age old adage, that the key to playing winning baseball is pitching, defense and timely hitting. Cleary we're not going anywhere is our big three doesn't carry the load. On I march...Today more so than in any other era in the game. The bullpen and in particular the backend of the bullpen plays a key role is securing victory in close games where the tying run come to the plate with a man on base in a 2 run game...Unfortunately due to the injury to our closer, today the pen is our greatest question mark. It was not helped by the injury to Bailey, it is not however a fatal flaw today, it is merely a concern that needs to be addressed...What we need is for Aceves to step up and take on the role of the closer while Bailey rehabs. It is then incumbent on Melancon and Morales to bridge the gap between the starter and the closer in close games and if they struggle and it become a fatal flaw then it's is the responsibility if Cherington to look to aquire another arm something I am certain he has already begun to do his use dilligence on...Then if and when Bailey returns after the all star break they can ineffect with both he and Matsusaka add two quaity arms to bolster the teams depth without the need to trade away assets...My guess is that come May 1st he and Valentine will have a pretty good idea of what they need or not in the short term with the end game in mind... Defensively IMHO our only real concern is Avilies but he's more than servicable and if he hits .300 his bat will compensate for the handful of errors he'll make. As for our lineup...1-6 were as good as anyone in game, it's too early to conclude that we won't score...7-8-9 were not as stout as we once were, but we're not awful either, frankly only the catchers spot in the lineup IMHO is at or below the league average...Our bench once Crawford returns IMHO is the best we've had in years. Though I would like to see Iggy or a guy with his defensive ability at the ready to be our late innings defensive replacement @ SS but Punto, Shoppach, Sweeney & Ross are all gamers. So with all that said, not sure that Larry Luccino or Ben Cherington need Mazz or Shaunessey to point out the obviuos issues that confront the team today...My guess is that both had forgotten more about the game than either of those scribes will ever learn...As with every season there is a natural process that all teams undergo the Red Sox are no different...the key is as the season progresses relative to the competition and the health of the key contributors will the Red Sox ownership empower Cherington with the resources he needs to address injury and underperformance and if we are in postion to make a strong push at seasons end will they add the players nessasary to bolster the roster for the stretch run...till will tell... In the meantime I'm pulling hard for Dobrount and Bard to have success and to live what is for every young ball players a lifetime goal of being a big league pitcher...I'll also continue to hope for the best and if all things are equal and we find ourselves in the hunt. I will come July 1st through August 1st expect that Henry and the ownership group step up and make available the financial resources needed to add payroll if nessasary in support of Cherington and Valentine...In the best interest of the Boston Red Sox Baseball Club of the American League...
    Posted by Beantowne


     Nice work here Beantowne, a finely written piece based upon rational thought.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Guvnor. Show Guvnor's posts

    Re: What goes around...

    Hi beanetowne Finely written response , appreciate your comments. My point on Francona was the way it was handled and he as a long serving manager with historic achievements was dealt with...agree he was as responsible as anyone for September 2011 but there still a way to go about these things As for this year, I think the number of unknowns you talk about, and potential problems show exactly where this team is at...there is a lot of hope, but really way too many questions for a team that needs to out perform either Texas/LA or Tampa to make the play offs. I know cardinals last year but they were in the NL central not the AL east. Flaws in this division get punished unlike in any other as we all know. Undeniably the six are worse than last season, injury pays a part but not the whole story. Our left side infield is vulnerable, leap of faith on 2 starters, closer gone replacement injured, bullpen really poor, and this whie our main competition has improved. Yes our 1-6 will hit and we will score runs especially against lower grade pitchers, but te top guys will shut us down and mow through the bottom of our order.....apart from Lester we don't have a reliable starter, Beckett has an injury, bucholz is coming off a bad back
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from marstan. Show marstan's posts

    Re: What goes around...

    YOU CAN'T CONTEND....AND I SAID "CONTEND"...WITH A
    LINEUP FEATURING ROSS, AVILES, PUNTO, MCDONALD AND
    SALTALAMACCHIA PLAYING EVERY DAY IN SOME KIND OF
    COMBO. SWEENEY LOOKS TO BE OK...COMPARED TO DREW.
    PAPI WILL FADE. YOUKILIS IS THROUGH, ELLSBURY WILL
    NOT REPEAT 2011, AND GONZO WILL NOT HIT LIKE
    GRANDERSON OR CANO..WHICH OVERLOOKS THE FACT THAT
    THE YANKS STILL HAVE JETER, TEX AND A ROD IN THEIR
    LINEUP. OUR 5-9 HITTERS COULD NOT PLAY IN SCRANTON
    YANKS AAA LEVEL. THAT IS A FACT...HARD TO STOMACH, BUT
    OUR LINEUP IS A JOKE. ONLY PEDEY IS WORTH HIS SALT.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: What goes around...

    In Response to What goes around...:
    Lets be honest, the owners and management of the sox have the team they deserve....for the way september 2011 was handled, the disgraceful hatchet job on francona, the fact that the team owner didnt even call the manager he was firing until 5 months later....this is not the way to treat people, regardless of how it ended at baltimore. As mazz, shaugnessy have observed, this is a team full of holes, a desperate bull pen, fading veterans (papi, youk, beckett) and mediocre journeymen (aviles, sweeney, ross, dmac, salty, shopp) that play with little heart (and over paid crawford the worst signing in the clubs history for the dollar), assembled this winter to cut costs as well as corners. Pedroia is the sole exception, even Ells is playing like he wants no part of it, gonzo will hit but he cant even be bothered to work on his speed over the winter. We have 1 starting pitcher that would get into the rays rotation, maybe 2 in the yanks, whilst jays and Os are improving. Sox didnt make post season last year, and this season there is no doubt the team is weaker. could be a 500 season, hope bobby v has plenty of 1 liners to go, for his sake.
    Posted by Guvnor
    guv, WADR, in AG's defense..that's just something you have or you don't, like the saying goes....you can't teach speed
     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Guvnor. Show Guvnor's posts

    Re: What goes around...

    In response to "Re: What goes around...":
    In Response to What goes around... : guv, WADR, in AG's defense..that's just something you have or you don't, like the saying goes....you can't teach speed Posted by jete02fan
    Of course you can work on speed.....or do Track athletes not bother to train.....he should get a coach that can teach him how to run properly on the balls of his feet and using his arms....he runs flat footed with no power......could also shed a pound or 2 to help...split half seconds matter.....and unless you are usain bolt just about anyone can make small changes that coud improve their time over 90 feet. The idiot who compared speed issue with height .....laughably stupid comparison.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: What goes around...

    " Lets be honest, the owners and management of the sox have the team they deserve."

    Hard to argue with that. But you weaken your argument by citing blowhards Mazz and Shaughnessey as agreeing with you. That alone should warn you to take a step back, you don't want to follow those guys off a cliff of negative and manipulative BS. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from teilhardian. Show teilhardian's posts

    Re: What goes around...

    The Yankees pitching and offense is hardly tearing up the league...A lot of truth to what has been said here, but after the first 6 games, this Yankee fan is far less confident about his team and will not rule out a run by the Bosox...A-Rod and shift-challenged Teixeira might come around, but if they don't, then the Yankees will not be able to compete with the Tigers and the Rangers...Not so sure about the Rays yet because of their questionable bullpen along with starter issues, as well as an unproven offense...Honestly, free agent acquisitions, trades and injuries could shake this initial picture up a lot in a matter of months so it is far too early to be throwing a Finnegan's Wake soiree for the Bosox....
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from 6k42lt913c. Show 6k42lt913c's posts

    Re: What goes around...

    What a great thread this turned out to be. Beantowne should be a reporter on the Globe staff.
     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from 6k42lt913c. Show 6k42lt913c's posts

    Re: What goes around...

    Funny how so many threads get started by those with a bleak outlook. Shouldn't those with a positive outlook start threads once in awhile? Is there a hidden agenda at work here?
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: What goes around...

    Chemistry is not formed in some magic moment.  Chemistry is forged over time, through trial and tribulation.  Of course, given that there was zero chemistry in Sepetember and then significant change in all ranks, there is not chemistry yet.  But, you can see it as "oh well, guess there will be no chemistry" or "perhaps the seeds of chemistry are there and they will blossom into something special".  Both are pure speculation at this point.  It is pretty stupid of us, we that see the future as bright, to assume that everything will magically come together.  I stand guilty as charged (Pollyana Pinkhat).  But it is no more stupid than thinking the story has been told after two series in a 162 game season.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from 6k42lt913c. Show 6k42lt913c's posts

    Re: What goes around...

    In Response to Re: What goes around...:
    Chemistry is not formed in some magic moment.  Chemistry is forged over time, through trial and tribulation.  Of course, given that there was zero chemistry in Sepetember and then significant change in all ranks, there is not chemistry yet.  But, you can see it as "oh well, guess there will be no chemistry" or "perhaps the seeds of chemistry are there and they will blossom into something special".  Both are pure speculation at this point.  It is pretty stupid of us, we that see the future as bright, to assume that everything will magically come together.  I stand guilty as charged (Pollyana Pinkhat).  But it is no more stupid than thinking the story has been told after two series in a 162 game season.
    Posted by SpacemanEephus


    A completely logical, reasonable "fan" is an oxymoron. Fans are by definition a product to some degree of irrational exuberance, unrealistic hope and optimism, and illogical loyalty. That is what makes being a fan so rewarding - being pleasantly surprised when your team performs better than you expected deep down.
     
    Most fans keep that pessimism hidden and don't raise it up the flagpole for everyone to see. Only posters with egos to protect in an internet forum do that. Other posters have other agendas.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: What goes around...

    Have the team they deserve????  They have the team they built.

    Chemistry doesn't win games - talent wins games.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from 6k42lt913c. Show 6k42lt913c's posts

    Re: What goes around...

    Guvnor's post record gives you a clue as to his agenda.
    http://www.boston.com/community/persona.html?UID=c12428a15e6e4723f2f943adcd24d516&plckUserId=c12428a15e6e4723f2f943adcd24d516
     
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