What happened?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Motown9009. Show Motown9009's posts

    What happened?


    I was catching up on my podcasts and just listened to the BS Report with Kevin Millar, taped prior to the All-Star Break. Simmons mentions that he had a couple of people come up to him and tell him stories about what's happening in the clubhouse and that it's the worst Sox clubhouse he can remember. Millar confirmed that it was really bad. So, things are really bad, and it's not a recent development.

    But what I thought was interesting was when they talked about the 2004 team. Millar described them as a bunch of "regular guys", they weren't rich, they didn't expect special treatment. They didn't that themselves too seriously, they just played baseball. They were the type that didn't care about pressure or what the media wrote about them. They just played.

    And it's lead me to thinking - what happened? Why did they move away from what worked? What's this teams philosophy? One minute they're looking for character guys. Then they want cost controlled talent, or low risk/high reward guys. Then they want high priced talent. Then they're set on developing their prospects. Then they're trading prospects for high priced talent. What is this teams identity supposed to be? Right now they remind me of those Met teams that had high priced talent but never won anything. 2004 was 8 years ago, I'm not suggesting they bring back guys from that team. But why did they move away from those type of guys?
     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: What happened?

    It could have something to do with the high-priced player syndrome, becoming a collection of talents rather than a team.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: What happened?

    In Response to Re: What happened?:
    [QUOTE]It could have something to do with the high-priced player syndrome, becoming a collection of talents rather than a team.
    Posted by Joebreidey[/QUOTE]

    #1 How we handled Francona and he mishandled the situation
    #2 Pitching
    #3 Injuries

    We just have too many obsticles Joe
     
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    Re: What happened?

    In Response to Re: What happened?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to What happened? : Concern Troll #27
    Posted by Calzone65[/QUOTE]

    What are you trying to say?
     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: What happened?

    In Response to Re: What happened?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to What happened? : Concern Troll #27
    Posted by Calzone65[/QUOTE]

    oh, they have numbers now...Its a legit question whatever the motives may be...Fact: This teams philosiphy has changed dramatically since 2004 and they need to find it again and stick to it.
     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: What happened?

    In Response to Re: What happened?:
    [QUOTE]Millar actually said the guys on the 2004 team weren't rich??
    Posted by davetheknave[/QUOTE]

    I know..that struck me as a little odd too...I think he meant they all werent making 15+mm per...but 2.5mm is a nice paycheck if you ask me and i would consider that rich...
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: What happened?

    In Response to What happened?:
    [QUOTE]I was catching up on my podcasts and just listened to the BS Report with Kevin Millar, taped prior to the All-Star Break. Simmons mentions that he had a couple of people come up to him and tell him stories about what's happening in the clubhouse and that it's the worst Sox clubhouse he can remember. Millar confirmed that it was really bad. So, things are really bad, and it's not a recent development. But what I thought was interesting was when they talked about the 2004 team. Millar described them as a bunch of "regular guys", they weren't rich, they didn't expect special treatment. They didn't that themselves too seriously, they just played baseball. They were the type that didn't care about pressure or what the media wrote about them. They just played. And it's lead me to thinking - what happened? Why did they move away from what worked? What's this teams philosophy? One minute they're looking for character guys. Then they want cost controlled talent, or low risk/high reward guys. Then they want high priced talent. Then they're set on developing their prospects. Then they're trading prospects for high priced talent. What is this teams identity supposed to be? Right now they remind me of those Met teams that had high priced talent but never won anything. 2004 was 8 years ago, I'm not suggesting they bring back guys from that team. But why did they move away from those type of guys?
    Posted by Motown9009[/QUOTE]

    you summed things up well

    why they did it?  not sure - most likely b/c ownership thought it would be good for business...remember, right after 2004 Theo wanted to clean up the team's image - he wanted the Idiots gone.......so that had something to do w/ it too...
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: What happened?

    "The way a team plays as a whole determines its success. You may have the greatest bunch of individual stars in the world, but if they don't play together, the club won't be worth a dime."

    Babe Ruth

    “Gentlemen, we will chase perfection, and we will chase it relentlessly, knowing all the while we can never attain it. But along the way, we shall catch excellence.”
    Vince Lombardi Jr.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Motown9009. Show Motown9009's posts

    Re: What happened?

    In Response to Re: What happened?:
    [QUOTE]Only a fly on the clubhouse or FO wall can make such comments about team philosophy, character, and integrity. Writer after writer likes to speculate without any real facts or evidence. Player after player say that the clubhouse environment is fine. So the reader is left with nothing to really go by. Have you ever been on jury duty. One cannot speculate there.
    Posted by Calzone65[/QUOTE]

    There's a difference between sending someone to jail and trying to keep clubhouse issues in the clubhouse. Clubhouse "problems" don't necessarily have to mean the players hate one another. Not being committed to winning, being more focused on hating the manager than winning, not putting the work in to winning, not being accountable to the team, being focused more on off the field issues, etc...they could all be problems in the clubhouse, even if every guy on the team is on the same page. Think of it like a high school class - the teacher leaves the room and everyone starts misbehaving, not doing their work, whatever. The teacher comes back and everyone in the class agrees nothing happened when he was gone and everyone did what they're supposed to be doing. Just because they're all on the same page, saying the same thing, doesn't mean they're right.

    There's a lot of sources, some in Boston, some not, saying the clubhouse is dysfunctional. Maybe they can't, or don't want to go into great detail about it? Maybe their sources won't go on the record? Maybe it's the old "you can quote me after I leave the team" thing? Where there's smoke there's fire, more times than not.

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Motown9009. Show Motown9009's posts

    Re: What happened?

    In Response to Re: What happened?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: What happened? : I know..that struck me as a little odd too...I think he meant they all werent making 15+mm per...but 2.5mm is a nice paycheck if you ask me and i would consider that rich...
    Posted by southpaw777[/QUOTE]

    The way he explained it, I think he meant they didn't "act" rich. They're certainly better off than the majority of people, but he mentions they weren't clean shaven, didn't travel in limos, didn't need to sneak in the back door and hide in the VIP room from "regular" people at bars/restaurants, that sort of thing. They acted more like regular people than the Yankees did.
     
     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: What happened?

    In Response to Re: What happened?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: What happened? : The way he explained it, I think he meant they didn't "act" rich. They're certainly better off than the majority of people, but he mentions they weren't clean shaven, didn't travel in limos, didn't need to sneak in the back door and hide in the VIP room from "regular" people at bars/restaurants, that sort of thing. They acted more like regular people than the Yankees did.  
    Posted by Motown9009[/QUOTE]

    yeah, I figured that motown...They seemed like the bunch of guys getting a pick up game together...
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from 67redsox. Show 67redsox's posts

    Re: What happened?

    In Response to Re: What happened?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to What happened? : you summed things up well why they did it?  not sure - most likely b/c ownership thought it would be good for business...remember, right after 2004 Theo wanted to clean up the team's image - he wanted the Idiots gone.......so that had something to do w/ it too...
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]

    I blame Theo also.  He didn't like the "idiot" image the sox had so he set out to change it.  He did a terrible job of it then left town.  Now we are stuck with this mess and who knows how long it will be before things change.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Motown9009. Show Motown9009's posts

    Re: What happened?

    In Response to Re: What happened?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: What happened? : I blame Theo also.  He didn't like the "idiot" image the sox had so he set out to change it.  He did a terrible job of it then left town.  Now we are stuck with this mess and who knows how long it will be before things change.
    Posted by 67redsox[/QUOTE]

    I'd take a hung-over on the verge of a breakdown Derek Lowe in a playoff game over Matt Clement any day. I know Clement was pretty good until he took that line drive, but some guys just have the x-factor. Guts, clutch, whatever you call it, there's just some guys who can be terrible all year but you know when it comes down to crunch time they'll come through. The idiots had guys like that. Even the 2007 team had the right mix of those type of guys with more talented players. Now we have a team of guys who had nice looking stats on paper - and they're not so nice looking lately.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from attic-dan. Show attic-dan's posts

    Re: What happened?

    In Response to What happened?:
    [QUOTE]I was catching up on my podcasts and just listened to the BS Report with Kevin Millar, taped prior to the All-Star Break. Simmons mentions that he had a couple of people come up to him and tell him stories about what's happening in the clubhouse and that it's the worst Sox clubhouse he can remember. Millar confirmed that it was really bad. So, things are really bad, and it's not a recent development. But what I thought was interesting was when they talked about the 2004 team. Millar described them as a bunch of "regular guys", they weren't rich, they didn't expect special treatment. They didn't that themselves too seriously, they just played baseball. They were the type that didn't care about pressure or what the media wrote about them. They just played. And it's lead me to thinking - what happened? Why did they move away from what worked? What's this teams philosophy? One minute they're looking for character guys. Then they want cost controlled talent, or low risk/high reward guys. Then they want high priced talent. Then they're set on developing their prospects. Then they're trading prospects for high priced talent. What is this teams identity supposed to be? Right now they remind me of those Met teams that had high priced talent but never won anything. 2004 was 8 years ago, I'm not suggesting they bring back guys from that team. But why did they move away from those type of guys?
    Posted by Motown9009[/QUOTE]
      The Sox management made a decision to get away from the "idiot" culture. It seems image became more important. The Damon's, Millar's and Lowe's of that team were systematiccally replaced, even Manny was put on waivers, but there were no takers. You can't say it was a total failure since they won in "07. Since then I think the front office i.e. Theo got lazy rather than work their farm system they threw money at their problems, regardless of clubhouse make-up Lackey, or if they actually had a fit for the team, Crawford. They have gone from a team structure, to an assemblage of talent.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Motown9009. Show Motown9009's posts

    Re: What happened?

    In Response to Re: What happened?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to What happened? :   The Sox management made a decision to get away from the "idiot" culture. It seems image became more important. The Damon's, Millar's and Lowe's of that team were systematiccally replaced, even Manny was put on waivers, but there were no takers. You can't say it was a total failure since they won in "07. Since then I think the front office i.e. Theo got lazy rather than work their farm system they threw money at their problems, regardless of clubhouse make-up Lackey, or if they actually had a fit for the team, Crawford. They have gone from a team structure, to an assemblage of talent.
    Posted by attic-dan[/QUOTE]

    They won in 2007 in part due to Manny, who they tried to get rid of. As they usually did back then. I think 2007 was just the right timing and right combination of "eras". They had the remaining "idiots", mixed with new guys playing in their prime (full time Youkilis, Beckett, resurgent Lowell), with the energy of the young guys  (Ellsbury, Pedroia, Lester, Papelbon). It was just the right mix before they moved more towards the high priced nice stats guys.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from antibody. Show antibody's posts

    Re: What happened?

    In Response to Re: What happened?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to What happened? : Concern Troll #27
    Posted by Calzone65[/QUOTE]

    Just plain troll #1.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: What happened?

    In Response to Re: What happened?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to What happened? : you summed things up well why they did it?  not sure - most likely b/c ownership thought it would be good for business...remember, right after 2004 Theo wanted to clean up the team's image - he wanted the Idiots gone.......so that had something to do w/ it too...
    Posted by andrewmitch[/QUOTE]

    I've thought for years that it would take a pretty special group to finally end the 86 year drought and finally put and end to the "curse" of being a seconf division club. One that was oblivious to the pressure of playing in a town were the cloud of dispair hung over the franchise. A team with a fan base that wanted to win so badly that the doom and gloom late in the year. When the team was in contention in the dog days of August was papable. Enter the Idiots led by the irrepressable Kevin Millar who served as the court gester on a team with as much or more talant than any in Red Sox history. That as a collective didn't allow the omni-present media to divide and concur thier clubhouse even when down 0-3 to our nemesis the hated Yank's of New York.

    The 2004 team made the journey for the 2007 team much easier in that we the fans were still basking in the glow of the 2004 parade...While Shaunessey and his ilk were left to contrive yet another means to an end to sell newspapers. With each passing season the pied pipers continued to play to the doom and gloomers club and making every effort to rest the power away from the team and fan the flames of discontent. Make no mistake about it, the media plays a role in the clubhouse chemistry and in city's like Boston and New York. Unfortunately we the fans, eat it up like pudding and then become part of the problem....it's cyclical... 
     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from antibody. Show antibody's posts

    Re: What happened?

    In Response to What happened?:
    [QUOTE]I was catching up on my podcasts and just listened to the BS Report with Kevin Millar, taped prior to the All-Star Break. Simmons mentions that he had a couple of people come up to him and tell him stories about what's happening in the clubhouse and that it's the worst Sox clubhouse he can remember. Millar confirmed that it was really bad. So, things are really bad, and it's not a recent development. But what I thought was interesting was when they talked about the 2004 team. Millar described them as a bunch of "regular guys", they weren't rich, they didn't expect special treatment. They didn't that themselves too seriously, they just played baseball. They were the type that didn't care about pressure or what the media wrote about them. They just played. And it's lead me to thinking - what happened? Why did they move away from what worked? What's this teams philosophy? One minute they're looking for character guys. Then they want cost controlled talent, or low risk/high reward guys. Then they want high priced talent. Then they're set on developing their prospects. Then they're trading prospects for high priced talent. What is this teams identity supposed to be? Right now they remind me of those Met teams that had high priced talent but never won anything. 2004 was 8 years ago, I'm not suggesting they bring back guys from that team. But why did they move away from those type of guys?
    Posted by Motown9009[/QUOTE]

    Short version: Larry Lucchino wanted to put his hand prints all over the day to day baseball operations and systematically drove Epstein and Francona out and castrated Cherrington before he was allowed to take over as GM and now John Henry is perplexed. SMH

    How this is going to get fixed is anybody's guess but it won't happen any time soon.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from kelvana33. Show kelvana33's posts

    Re: What happened?

    In Response to Re: What happened?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: What happened? : Ummmm......wake up...the Boston media was quite chummy with the new Sox ownership group and hence the team since Spring of 2002 up until October 2011....they were like lambs (after being brutal to previous Sox regimes/teams). They only occasionally got "tough" when it was time to banish a high paid player out of town that the Sox ownership had no real intention of resigning as a favor to their pals Henry & Lucchino. You should know the players we're talking about.  If you didn't notice the chummy behavior between the Sox and Henry & Co for all that time, up until last October.....then I guess you weren't paying attention. _________________________________ Curt Schilling Deadbeat Fraud Clown
    Posted by bellhorn_[/QUOTE]


    Winning cures everything.



     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: What happened?

    Weren't rich? Really.

    Pedro, Schilling, Manny were all high-priced players.
    Nomar was btching about his contract and turned down a huge contract.
    Damon -- I liked him but he was always a player-for-the-highest-bidder mercenary.
    Foulke -- don't know what his yearly salary was but he was a big-time FA signing.

    So now in terms of similar contracts, you replace them with A-Gon, Crawford, Beckett, Lackey and Ortiz.

    The money overall his higher now because the cost of everything goes up, but in terms of number of high-priced contracts relative to the times, it seems the number of players with those contracts are the same now as it was in 2004.
     
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