What happens to guys like Veritek?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

     He deserves one hell of a lot better treatement than to be kicked to the curb like yesterday's garbage.

    Varitek was paid 10 million dollars over the last 3 years on teams that never won a playoff game.Varitek was yesterday's fan favorite hero, and remained a fan favorite, even as a parasitic loser. Captain of a team that went through the motions during biggest season collapse in MLB history.

    Varitek is today's garbage, still begging for millions.

    Some idiot wanted to pay him a million dollars to take up a roster spot for another year. The reason is because he actually thought management would bring him back (even though he will deny it). The reality is that it takes an idiot to offer more than the market for an old washed up catcher.

    Let us hope that the Wastefield pile of garbage is next to the dumpster.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxnsl. Show maxnsl's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    Geo: I bet those posters who say there were no problems last year also dont believe there were dinosaures on earth.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    In Response to Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?:
    [QUOTE] He deserves one hell of a lot better treatement than to be kicked to the curb like yesterday's garbage. Varitek was paid 10 million dollars over the last 3 years on teams that never won a playoff game.Varitek was yesterday's fan favorite hero, and remained a fan favorite, even as a parasitic loser. Captain of a team that went through the motions during biggest season collapse in MLB history. Varitek is today's garbage, still begging for millions. Some idiot wanted to pay him a million dollars to take up a roster spot for another year. The reason is because he actually thought management would bring him back (even though he will deny it). The reality is that it takes an idiot to offer more than the market for an old washed up catcher. Let us hope that the Wastefield pile of garbage is next to the dumpster.
    Posted by hankwilliams[/QUOTE]

    What does that make a hateful, spiteful person who comes here solely to mock and disrespect two people who've given everything they had to their team?

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    it seems to me that the people who wont leave what happened last year in the past are the folks who claimed that nothing was wrong...they are still at it and it is pathetic...why try to re-write history DirtyWater??? 

    I never said "nothing was wrong". My point has always been that we don't know everything that went on behind closed doors. This was one of the most secretive clubhouses in recent Sox history. Are you certain that VTek didn't try anything? Are you certain that if he had tried something, things would have changed? I am not.

    Really nothing was wrong? Your own manager admitted he was disrespected and backstabbed by the very players he supported for years. 

    You are taking liberties with Tito's statements, and even if that is what Tito meant, you don't know if he was talking about VTek or someone else.

    Moon, Tek has no blame for what happened in the clubhouse? 

    I actually said to blame VTek more than anyone else was wrong. If you feel the need to assign blame everytime something goes wrong, I suggest you spread the blame evenly to the whole team. Baseball is a team sport. If you would "accept that conventional wisdom" maybe you could "move on" easier.

    He was the captain and he was just a witness to the most corrosive team environment ever in the history of the Sox. 

    1) That's your opinion.
    2) Any time a team loses like that, you are going to have some very frustrated people: players, coaches, media, and fans. You might be putting the cart before the horse here. Maybe the losing made the supposed "corrosiveness" come to being. Maybe not, I don't know, and I'm not sure anyone knows... even Tito or the players.

    Why didnt he get into their faces? 


    Again, he might have.  We don't know. Perhaps he had a few quiet words with some of the players "in question".

    It is a simple question and not hard to figure out the answer. Because the main idiot was Beckett, and Tek ralized he existed solely to be Beckett's binky. He wasnt going to upset his own gravy train so he shrunk from the September shenanigans. He let the Texas trio sabatoge the team, undermine the manager, and squander our playoff chances for his own personal reasons. 

    Pure conjecture. You may be totally right, but noithing here can be proven. I really find it hard to believe that a few guys drinking beer and eating chicken a few times late in a game was the sole reason we collapsed. The culture of baseball has always involved beer and buffets. I'm not condoning their actions, but I really think it is a deep stretch to blame the collapse on the "trio" and the Captain that let them "sabatoge the team". I think you overestimate the power and authority of a "captain". 

    He exhibited no leadership, and with his declining skills, he is rightfully being released this coming season.

    His skills decline from a near HOF level to a point where he was an exceptional back-up catcher who helped lead the team to a 62% winning percentage in games he caught without "binky buddy" Beckett.

    Maybe folks like Dirty, Pike, and to a lesser extent Moon, should accept the conventional wisdom of what happened and move on. We have a better manager next year (Francona was woefully unable to lead) and the core remains strong...

    By convention wisdom, you mean what the press wants us to believe?

    This team had serious injury issues, and actually overperformed for 4 months of the season. Did you give VTek credit for any of that?  Nah... He's just the back-up catcher who is slumping, right? We hit a wall. Youk, Beckett and Bedard's late injuries were the final straw. If you want to blame Beckett's injury on beer and chicken, you might be stretching things a bit. The player conditioning issue was and is real. 

    If it makes things more cozy for you to actually think the 2011 Red Sox, without Buch, Youk, Beckett, Bedard, and Dice-K, would have won had VTek risen to the challenge of his captaincy, then go on believing your view of "conventional wisdom".  Nobody talked about dibilitating corrosiveness when Manny got in Youk's mug, until after we started losing. 

    This silly blame game is sadly becomming America's favorite pastime.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    In Response to Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?:
    [QUOTE]Geo: I bet those posters who say there were no problems last year also dont believe there were dinosaures on earth.
    Posted by maxnsl[/QUOTE]

    Name one person on this board who has said there "were no problems".

    Crickets...

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    sorry moon, but you are simply treading water here....the collapse was well documented and verified by many sources (including Beckett's ex manager)...you are being insincere and playing games with semantics/words...

    you spent the past few years worshipping Tek's skills as a catcher/leader and yet when it all goes south in an epic way...it is not his fault, or anything that he couldve prevented...silly and sad..

    move on moon....everything I said about Francona and the team (and Manny for the record) was right...Im not kicking anyone to the curb - Im just tolerating this revisionist nonsense...you guys were wrong about what happened

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    In Response to Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?:
    [QUOTE]it seems to me that the people who wont leave what happened last year in the past are the folks who claimed that nothing was wrong...they are still at it and it is pathetic...why try to re-write history DirtyWater??? Really nothing was wrong? Your own manager admitted he was disrespected and backstabbed by the very players he supported for years. Moon, Tek has no blame for what happened in the clubhouse? He was the captain and he was just a witness to the most corrosive team environment ever in the history of the Sox. Why didnt he get into their faces? It is a simple question and not hard to figure out the answer. Because the main idiot was Beckett, and Tek ralized he existed solely to be Beckett's binky. He wasnt going to upset his own gravy train so he shrunk from the September shenanigans. He let the Texas trio sabatoge the team, undermine the manager, and squander our playoff chances for his own personal reasons. He exhibited no leadership, and with his declining skills, he is rightfully being released this coming season. Maybe folks like Dirty, Pike, and to a lesser extent Moon, should accept the conventional wisdom of what happened and move on. We have a better manager next year (Francona was woefully unable to lead) and the core remains strong...
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]


    I don't fall into that category, and I don't think most posters here do either.  It's pretty hard to say with a straight face that there was nothing wrong last year.

     The team got off to a VERY slow start, then recovered.  Opening Day's pitching staff was wracked with injuries, the team started to lose, and things went downhill from there.  When the looses began to mount, Tito lost control of the clubhouse because a "stronger personality" took it over and the losing streak in early September gave clkubhouse credence to what that "stronger personality" was doing.  It's obvious that the clubhouse then divided itself into two (or more) factions - those who sided with Tito and those who didn't.  

    In the middle was Veritek, still the alleged Captain of the team, although for the past couple of years it's been a "figurehead position".  Since respect is something that's given and not taken, those in the camp of the <ahem> stronger personality began to respect and follow Beckett (Oops.  Did I say that?) instead.  Veritek became the Captain in name only, lacking the respect from the team necessary to be a REAL Captain.

    Frankly, this whole thing has sickened me.  When one follows a team for years one gets a pretty good idea of the personality of certain players and there is no doubt in my miind who was "the leader of the pack" of insurgents.  I'm disappointed in him but I also recognize that as the best pitcher on the team his job is secure (see:  tail wags dog) and I'm also disappointed in his minions who, after having played professional baseball for a decade or more, should have KNOWN the right way to do things but allowed themselves to be led anyway.

    But..I'm a Sox fan first so I'll pick myself up, dust myself off, and start over.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    sorry moon, but you are simply treading water here....the collapse was well documented and verified by many sources (including Beckett's ex manager)...you are being insincere and playing games with semantics/words...

    I am being 100% sincere. Yes, our team collapsed. Show me the "documentation" where Tito said VTek did nothing and stabbed him in the back. You chose the words, now prove your semantics were correct.

    you spent the past few years worshipping Tek's skills as a catcher/leader and yet when it all goes south in an epic way...it is not his fault, or anything that he couldve prevented...silly and sad..

    You keep twisting my words. I have said that VTek is no more to blame than others. That is not saying he had no fault in our loss.

    move on moon....everything I said about Francona and the team (and Manny for the record) was right...Im not kicking anyone to the curb - Im just tolerating this revisionist nonsense...you guys were wrong about what happened

    I agreed with Manny at the time as well...one of just a handful of posters on this thread. Youk needed to be chilled out, and several players all but said so afterwards. The point I am making is that corrosiveness is subjective. The Yanks won the year Reggie and Billy went at in front of a national telivised game. Had the Yanks lost, they'd have blamed Reggie (or Billy) for all the corrosiveness. It is you who is revising history into your neat little cozy world, where only bad guys can lose, and good guys always win.

    We don't know how bad it was in the clubhouse. Any clubhouse that lost that many games in a short while would get to be uptight, ornery, and maybe corrosive. We don't know if Vtek tried to do anything. We don't know if it would have worked or not had he tried. How am I revising history, when I am stating nothing as fact like you are?  I don't know, and you don't know. The difference is, you are pretending to know. I understand your need to blame someone. We all do that at some point. I choose to blame everyone evenly, and realize our team was not championship quality once all those players went down. I still think we were good enough to beat the Baltimores of the world, but this is baseball. Things happen. The best team does not always win. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from sapper1. Show sapper1's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

     I think he'll be back in the game,but not as a player. Bet he takes a position at GATech. He always said college baseball was some of the best times in his life.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    He could probably sell his notebook on opposing batters for a couple hundred thousand.
     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    I actually said to blame VTek more than anyone else was wrong. If you feel the need to assign blame everytime something goes wrong, I suggest you spread the blame evenly to the whole team. Baseball is a team sport. If you would "accept that conventional wisdom" maybe you could "move on" easier.

    Really??? Tek AS CAPTAIN has no more responsibility than anyone when watching his soulmate pitching binky drink beer, order takeout chicken delivered to the clubhouse?????????? w t f??? during games??????

    What exactly was our pitching whsperer saying during all this??? Was our CAPTAIN not noticing Josh couldnt breathe past the fourth inning because of his girth and lack of stamina???? Becket was the ringleader of this idiocy...and Tek was Beckett's battery mate...just that alone demands action...the fact that Tek was so weak/indifferent and was wearing a C on his uniform makes your argument downright laughable.

    Tek sealed his fate with his failure in leadership during this crisis...this is why he and the manager are not being rehired...that is a simple fact, not speculation.....you yourself spout out all these facts showing Tek was a valuable back up....why is he not being resigned???? because he failed in his most important role....and his firing, like francona's is deserving...
     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    Cmon georom, you're going a little overboard pinning so much of the blame on Varitek.  He was a 39-year old backup catcher making 2 million.  Yes, he was Captain but it's kind of absurd to expect someone in his diminished position on the team to run the show.  Why not pin it on Pedroia, who should probably have been the real Captain...
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    HF...i agree with you about Pedroia...after the season i was totally critical about his denials...and he was proven to be a liar about what happened...but Veritek was captain...there is nothing overboard about that...and really...what did he say exactly to Beckett???? everyone on this board noticed his downhill shape and struggles late in the season....sorry but ...
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    I actually said to blame VTek more than anyone else was wrong. If you feel the need to assign blame everytime something goes wrong, I suggest you spread the blame evenly to the whole team. Baseball is a team sport. If you would "accept that conventional wisdom" maybe you could "move on" easier.

    Really??? Tek AS CAPTAIN has no more responsibility than anyone when watching his soulmate pitching binky drink beer, order takeout chicken delivered to the clubhouse?????????? w t f??? during games??????

    Yes, really! In fact, if I was forced to lay blame on the individual players one by one, I wouldn't start with the back-up catcher who led the team to a 63% winning percentage when he played, while we had a losing record with others.

    I think you are overblowing the role of a "captain" in baseball. It is largly a ceremonial post. It's the manager's role to manage the clubhouse. 

    What exactly was our pitching whsperer saying during all this??? Was our CAPTAIN not noticing Josh couldnt breathe past the fourth inning because of his girth and lack of stamina???? 

    Oh, so team captain is also supposed to be a pilates instructor as well? Please! To blame the back-up catcher for pitchers being fat is really totally insane.

    Becket was the ringleader of this idiocy...and Tek was Beckett's battery mate...just that alone demands action...the fact that Tek was so weak/indifferent and was wearing a C on his uniform makes your argument downright laughable. 

    You are making assumptions about Beckett that may or may not be true. Just because Vtek was Beckett's very successful "binky-mate" does not mean he has to take over the trainer and manager roles.

    Tek sealed his fate with his failure in leadership during this crisis...this is why he and the manager are not being rehired...that is a simple fact, not speculation.....you yourself spout out all these facts showing Tek was a valuable back up....why is he not being resigned???? because he failed in his most important role....and his firing, like francona's is deserving...

    Maybe he's not being resigned because he's old, because he wants too much money, or because they projected further decline and didn't want to risk injury of a steep drop off. Maybe softy is right: he became wooden and his arm noodle-like. 

    Tell me why they benched him during our last playoff series, going against what they had done all season. Perhaps they don't value CERA-related results as much as some of us. Perhaps they believed VTek could have done more in the clubhouse....my point is...WE DON'T KNOW.

    I'm not pretending to know, but you are acting like I am being all righteous. You are thje one who is acting like you know 100% what happened and why VTek will not be back. You know nothing more-nothing less than the rest of us.

    Are you saying id VTek never had the "C" on his jersey, he'd be back this year? You certainly sound like it. 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from proftom. Show proftom's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    Too soon for anybody to know what happens to Tek. Keep in mind this is not about Tek, its about is agent, Boras. In the old days the organization would ave found a nice spot for Tek, or waited until mid season and trade him to a winner. 

    Good to great catchers are hard to find. Tek is a good to great catcher, and in Boston he is second only to Carlton Fisk. Tek, will always be loved in Boston. After his playing days are over his name and number will find their way to Fenway park.  
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    All true, but right now he is about an average hitting MLB catcher (much better vs LHPs), has a weak arm, and questionable defensive skills that are overcome by a deep understanding of the game and how to handle pitchers. He is 39. Most up and coming teams aren't looking for 39. Most competitive teams already have a catcher or two. I'm not sure Boras is inhibiting anything at this point in Jason's career, since nobody is afraid of having to face Boras next winter for an extension.

    VTek can not catch fulltime anymore. At most, he might be able to give a team 80-90 starts. That might work for team in need of a catcher who hits LHPs well. He'd make a good platoon catcher (55-65 games vs LH'd starters), but that's about it. I projected $1M to $1.5M offers, but with all the catcher trades and signings, it's hard to keep track of how many teams need a back-up catcher.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    In Response to Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?:
    [QUOTE]HF...i agree with you about Pedroia...after the season i was totally critical about his denials...and he was proven to be a liar about what happened...but Veritek was captain...there is nothing overboard about that...and really...what did he say exactly to Beckett???? everyone on this board noticed his downhill shape and struggles late in the season....sorry but ...
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    But for all we know Varitek did talk to Beckett and Beckett ignored it because he's a self-centred SOB... 
     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    In Response to Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: What happens to guys like Veritek? : But for all we know Varitek did talk to Beckett and Beckett ignored it because he's a self-centred SOB... 
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    i think my scenario is a bit more plausible...i think Tek might not have tried to talk to beckett because he was an sob...but if youre going to wear the captain jersey, act like one....not once during that awful september did tek exhibit any type of leadership....he was like francona...mute, meek, and resigned to failure...no thank you - i think i will pass on him this year...

    they will be remembered for this epic collapse as much as their world series wins...not fair but likely...
     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    sorry moon, but you are simply treading water here....the collapse was well documented and verified by many sources (including Beckett's ex manager)...you are being insincere and playing games with semantics/words...

    you spent the past few years worshipping Tek's skills as a catcher/leader and yet when it all goes south in an epic way...it is not his fault, or anything that he couldve prevented...silly and sad..

    move on moon....everything I said about Francona and the team (and Manny for the record) was right...Im not kicking anyone to the curb - Im just tolerating this revisionist nonsense...you guys were wrong about what happened



    Of course, Moonslob was wrong. And you are 100% correct. Wastefield ceremonial tour in late summer was absolutely the distraction that put the 2011 team in ceremonial mode.

    Varitek is finally gone. I expect Wastefield will likely follow. I would love to see these 2 parasites in Chicago costing millions to Cubs' ownership. Only better thought would be to see these 2 parasites as butchers for the Yankees.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    If I am ever convicted of a crime that I didn't commit , I pray to God that the members of the jury don't think like Georom. He forms all opinions with very little evidence, relies on inuendo and speculation. I still think that he is just pretending and trying to upset Moonslav.

    Do people really think that players would come forward after the collapse and say, "Jason got in my mug a few times and told me to smarten up, get in shape, and try harder!"

    Is Jason the type of guy that would come forward and say, "I got in Beckett's mug 4 times during the season, but he wouldn't listen to me!" Would that be what Geo and others on this thread would expect and want from their team leader? To out a fellow player to the media?

    If something did happen involving VTek being proactive or aggressive as a captain, there's a good chance we would not have heard about it from anyone. Maybe even Tito wouldn't have known he did it.

    There is no evidence to prove that VTek did or did not actively try anything, and then on top of that, there's no evidence that if he had done it, it would have worked or made a significant difference.

    The evidence presented is totally speculative: Beckett and Lester did poorly in September, so it must be because they were not determined enough to win. It's because VTek didn't force them to the gym all year to lose weight and build stamina. What captain does that? Ever.

    Guys, we had Miller (12 starts) , Weiland (5 starts), Wakefield (23 starts), Lackey (28 starts pitching injured), and Bedard (8 starts) and came 1 game away from making the playoffs. If we had spread the losses out all year, would anyone have blamed VTek for us not making the playoffs? The nature of the "collapse" begged for assigning blame. We lost our starting RF'er for most of the year, our star 3Bman for a crucial stretch and then watched him hit at a .525 OPS when he returned in Septemeber. Should VTek have yelled at Youk? We lost Scutaro and Lowrie for a stretch. We lost Wheeler for a while and he never fully recovered. We pretty much lost Jenks all year. We had Rich Hill pitch 9 scoreless innings, then miss the rest of the year. In hinsight, the most amazing fact of the season was not really the collapse, it was more the hot streak we had for 4 months with all these guys missing. We actually overperformed for 4 months and underperformed for 2. Where's the credit given to VTek for those 4 months? 

    Did anyone remember April? I'm not bashing Salty, but do you guys remember what happened? We lost the first 8 out of 9 games started by Salty (and 9 out of 11 up to April 15th).  The team went 1-2 with VTek in that same stretch, but then won 5 straight from April 16-20th. Did anyone give credit to VTek then? No, they only give negative points.  We then went 6-3 in Salty after the poor start up to April 15th, but then lost 3 straight in Salty starts (May 4-6). After May 6th, the team went 8-1 under VTek. No kudos. In fact many poster scoffed at the idea that a catcher has that much influence over wins and losses or a pitcher's performance, yet when we lose, VTek is suddenly this massive negative influential character on the team? I don't buy it. 

    We went 42-22 when VTek caught most of the game. We had a losing record when he didn't. (We were 22-12 in non-Beckett games caught by VTek). In case you are thinking VTek caught all the better pitchers, think again. 
    PAs w  VTek  Salty (ERA w /VTek vs w/Salty)
    Beckett 715    52      (2.62 to 7.36)
    Lester  165   610      (2.48 to 3.77)
    Miller   154   156     (7.28 to 4.08)
    Lackey 152   591     (6.82 to 6.31)  Pretty close
    Dice-K  151    16      (3.82 to 31.50)
    Bedard  67    84      (3.38 to 3.86) Pretty close
    Wake    53   624      (4.15 to 5.21)
    Weiland 22     86    (13.50 to 7.64)
    Buch      88   265     (3.38 to 3.52) Pretty close

    Relievers (by IP) VTek to Salty
    Aceves   2,34  (42.1) to 2.82 (67.0)
    Bard       1.44  (31.1) to 4.54 (39.2) You think VTek was "Josh's binky"? 
    Paps       2.45  (25.2) to 2.75 (36.0) Pretty close
    Albers     4.00 (36.0) to 5.53 (27.2)
    Wheeler  5.40 (15.0) to 4.19 (34.1)
    Morales   3.14 (14.1) to 4.24 (17.0)
    Atchison  5.14 (7.0)  to  2.70 (23.1)

    Salty caught more innings than Vtek by a 3:2 ratio. The pitchers highlighted in blue were caught at a percentage by VTek or more than 40%. The ones in black had Salty catch them at more than 60% of the time.

    11 out of our top 16 pitchers by IP in 2011 did better with VTek than Salty. 4 were pretty close, so one could say VTek's record was 8-4-4(ties).  

    Pitchers responded to something VTek was doing, but you won't call that leadership or having a positive influence. "Lead by example".  

    Hard evidence means nothing to some of you. Conjecture, innuendos, and media witch hunts are the gospel.   
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    The evidence presented is totally speculative:

    Fact: Jason Varitek was 2011 team captain

    Fact: 2011 team had pitchers drinking beer in the clubhouse during games

    Fact: Tito said he was unable to make an impression on a disengaged team

    Fact: 2011 team was the biggest season collapse in MLB history

    Varitek was effectively fired. Fact, and end of story.

     

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