1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/16/2011 12:50 PM EST

    Just as Francona was fired for his leadership failures, so did the decision not to resign Varitek also stem from his leadership failures....
    everyone knew what he limitations were at this stage of his career - the fact that he is not being asked to return is an indictment on his role as a leader, not a back up...it is hilarious that Moon has written REAMS of posts detailing the stastical worth of Veritek, and praising all his CERA intangibles, but the minute he gets released (fired), it is because "maybe he has a noodle arm, or the management thought he couldnt play"...

    really Moon???
    didnt you just spend the past two years telling us how valuable Tek was STATISTICALLY???

    Yes, but I never said Sox management agreed with me. They obviously didn't when they benched VTek for the playoffs (and coincidentally we got swept).
     
    are you saying that Sox management doesnt have that info and thus are releasing him because they dont know any better?

    No, I am saying they did not re-sign him (different than "releasing" someone under contract) for reasons you or me don't really know.  Couldn't it also be ...
    because they like Salty, Lava and Shopp better?
    because maybe they projected further decline in VTek's offense and defense into 2012?
    because they want to get away from Tito's bizarre "personal caddy" tradition (which would lessen VTek's '12 worth to some extent)?
    because VTek was asking for too much money?
    because VTek had an affair with a relative of Ben's?

    My point is we don't know. I have never pretended to know what the reasons are for Sox moves and non-moves or what happened in the clubhouse last year. 

    or could it be that he role on the team was to be captain and lead by example, and he failed epically at that last year?

    Yes, it could be, but it not a "FACT"! Get it?

    you need to make up your mind about Tek...is he above avg backup catcher as you claim, or not? do the sox know this, or not? was he expected to lead or not as captain? 

    He was a better than average back-up catcher in 2011.  He has limitations that younger catcher do not have. His value goes way down if the number one catcher has a major injury. Only a few teams might find that VTek could help them in 2012. As I have said many times, he would not be a help to the Sox in 2012 "if we keep Papi", because having Papi forces Lava to near a solely catcher position for 2012.  Once papi announced he accepted arb, I said VTek's days here are over. I was surprised by the Shopp move, but I still think they may be lokking to trade Salty or Lava.

    Secondly, I do not have a high opinion of Salty. I think Sox management has a higher opinion of him than I do. I am not pretending to think I know better than them, but my opinion is valid. My poor opinion of Salty (particularly batting vs LHPs) was one major reason I saw possible value in VTek on our 2012 roster, especially since Tito is now gone, and Bobby V would likely have used a Lefty-righty catcher platoon instead of "personal caddies". Shoppach is even better than VTek vs LHPs, so I like the deal. He got about what I thought Vtek would get, and he is a better fielding catcher by far. I am not to high on his "CERA related" skills, but I think he is Ok in that area...certainly better than Salty.

    i dont think you are trying to hard here Moon - and your logic is pretty lousy...

    How are you "trying"? I keep saying your supposed "facts" are not proven (although they could be true), and you have not provided one shred of real evidence to prove VTek did not try anything as a captain or if that the kind of captaincy you wanted would have worked with these vets anyways.

    Also, just because probably every team that has ever collapsed in the history of sports ends up having "clubhouse issues" (of course bickering will sprout up) does not prove that the clubhouse issues caused the collapse. My guess is that beer drinking and eating chicken or worse has occured in many a winning team's clubhouses, and as long as they win or it is not reported, there is "no clubhouse problem".

    Many teams have won with proven fractured clubhouses. Many teams have lost with very tight and determined clubhouses.
     

  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/16/2011 12:54 PM EST

    it is hilarious that Moon has written REAMS of posts detailing the stastical worth of Veritek, and praising all his CERA intangibles, but the minute he gets released (fired), it is because "maybe he has a noodle arm, or the management thought he couldnt play"...

    Game, set and match! Only an idiot makes a case against himself, and that is our resident stooge, Moonslob.

    Obviously, Varitek at 40 is the same bum as Varitek at 39. All that changed was ownership and management decided to pull the good ole boy plug on old FA because of 2011 team collapse. Had team done well, Varitek would have been offered 1M or more to return to frathouse.

    Only a silly clown can accuse someone else of being an idiot for "making a case against himself" and then do it himself seconds later! This is too funny.

    You've written "reams" of statements concerning Wake and VTek's ages and how just one year in age can make or break a players usefulness. Now you act like 39 to 40 is nothing.

    Game-Set-Match clown!
     

  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/16/2011 12:56 PM EST

    In Response to Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?:
    space..i should have bold the "same as 39/40" remark...i dont think he's a bum...not at all...i have been a supporter of tek as a back up...still think he was better than most...but management wants him out for obvious reasons to me...
    Posted by georom4


    Don't get me wrong G, the reasons are obvious to me too.  It is certainly time to part ways (at least with Tek the Player).  Its just the unecessary disrespect that gets my goat.  Any true Sox fan should really have the utmost respect for Jason Varitek.  I think it is ridiculous the way Softy puts the past couple seasons on Jason, as if he should voluntarily retire even if the club offers him a contract.  Gimme a break.  If there is blame for keeping an over the hill player on the roster, it is all the FO.  But the FO determined that he had value.  Now they don't.  Cool.  As you say, it is time.  But I am going to voice my dissent every time when I hear someone just denegrating a Sox legend like Tek.
     

  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/16/2011 1:10 PM EST

    Don't get me wrong G, the reasons are obvious to me too.  It is certainly time to part ways (at least with Tek the Player).  Its just the unecessary disrespect that gets my goat.  Any true Sox fan should really have the utmost respect for Jason Varitek.  I think it is ridiculous the way Softy puts the past couple seasons on Jason, as if he should voluntarily retire even if the club offers him a contract.  Gimme a break.  If there is blame for keeping an over the hill player on the roster, it is all the FO.  But the FO determined that he had value.  Now they don't.  Cool.  As you say, it is time.  But I am going to voice my dissent every time when I hear someone just denegrating a Sox legend like Tek.

    Well said, space.
     

  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from bbenton87. Show bbenton87's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/16/2011 1:16 PM EST

    You have a great career that runs it's course and you have to cut ties and it's not always pretty this could end up being eerily similar to John Smoltz and by that I mean your best days are already behind you, but you just don't want to admit it because of your desire to play the game, and if it don't work out it is just plain painful to watch, I don't want Tek to go down that road, I'd rather him ride out into the sunset rather then being drug into the sunset.
     

  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/16/2011 1:17 PM EST

    In Response to Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?:
    You have a great career that runs it's course and you have to cut ties and it's not always pretty this could end up being eerily similar to John Smoltz and by that I mean your best days are already behind you, but you just don't want to admit it because of your desire to play the game, and if it don't work out it is just plain painful to watch, I don't want Tek to go down that road, I'd rather him ride out into the sunset rather then being drug into the sunset.
    Posted by bbenton87

    Fair enough.

     

  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/16/2011 1:18 PM EST

    You've written "reams" of statements concerning Wake and VTek's ages and how just one year in age can make or break a players usefulness. Now you act like 39 to 40 is nothing.

    False. My comments on near and over 40 parasites Varitek and Wastefield are 100% on the money. One year does not make a difference in regards to players near 40. Idiot!

    Game, set and match, Stooge!

    Claiming that management suddendly doesn't see Varitek for what he was in 2011 at age 39 is utterly absurd and makes the case against the stooge claiming to offer him 1 million! Varitek was fired as caption of MLBPA Red Sox union for 2011 debacle! End of story!  
     

  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/16/2011 1:35 PM EST

    In Response to Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?:
    In Response to Re: What happens to guys like Veritek? : Don't get me wrong G, the reasons are obvious to me too.  It is certainly time to part ways (at least with Tek the Player).  Its just the unecessary disrespect that gets my goat.  Any true Sox fan should really have the utmost respect for Jason Varitek.  I think it is ridiculous the way Softy puts the past couple seasons on Jason, as if he should voluntarily retire even if the club offers him a contract.  Gimme a break.  If there is blame for keeping an over the hill player on the roster, it is all the FO.  But the FO determined that he had value.  Now they don't.  Cool.  As you say, it is time.  But I am going to voice my dissent every time when I hear someone just denegrating a Sox legend like Tek.
    Posted by SpacemanEephus

    Very well said.  There's more truth and honesty in this post than anything Softy ever posted.

    This post = +1,000,000,000... +

     

  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/16/2011 1:51 PM EST

    Moonslob is a board bully, and always advances the New England style PC nonsense. He never thought, will never admit it, that Varitek would be kicked to the curb after 2011. He thought 1M and another backup catcher gig was on the way. He will deny it, just as he claims to no like Wastefield. It is his shill modus.

    Now that Varitek is gone, he is left trying to claim a 40 year old Varitek is now a lower value than a 39 year old Varitek, in eyes of management. Because he has spent years and repeated same CERA and leadership nonsense about Varitek, he has to resort to an argument that makes the case against the million dollars he advocates paying Varitek as the good value he claims every year.

    Absurd! 2011 debacle is why Union Red Sox former Captain Fa Varitek is booted to curb. Not management suddenly seeing more value in Shoppach. 
     

  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/16/2011 2:43 PM EST

    Moonslob is a board bully, and always advances the New England style PC nonsense. He never thought, will never admit it, that Varitek would be kicked to the curb after 2011. He thought 1M and another backup catcher gig was on the way. 

    More lies. I said, if Papi doesn't come back, VTek would be one option for about $1-1.5M. I never said I thought he was "on the way (to another back-up gig]" here in Boston.

    He will deny it, just as he claims to no like Wastefield. It is his shill modus.

    Yes, I "no" like Wake, but realize he was better than your choices of miller, Weiland, Douby (whiole still on the DL) and "Wally".

    Now that Varitek is gone, he is left trying to claim a 40 year old Varitek is now a lower value than a 39 year old Varitek, in eyes of management. Because he has spent years and repeated same CERA and leadership nonsense about Varitek, he has to resort to an argument that makes the case against the million dollars he advocates paying Varitek as the good value he claims every year. 

    More lies and misrepresentations. Learn how to read, fool.

    Absurd! 2011 debacle is why Union Red Sox former Captain Fa Varitek is booted to curb. Not management suddenly seeing more value in Shoppach. 

    You mean the same management you are calling bozos, now suddenly know something once they do something you like?
     

  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/16/2011 2:52 PM EST

    No, new management, not doing bozo idiocy like paying milliions for 40 year old parasites Varitek and Wastefield to make a 25 man roster a 23 man able roster.  
     

  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from 111SoxFan111. Show 111SoxFan111's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/16/2011 2:55 PM EST

    I know this may sound crazy, but am I the only one who sometimes wonders if Softy and Moon are actually the same person?
     

  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/16/2011 3:51 PM EST

    In Response to Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?:
    I know this may sound crazy, but am I the only one who sometimes wonders if Softy and Moon are actually the same person?
    Posted by 111SoxFan111


    Maybe you and Softy are the same person.  On the internet many things are possible.
     

  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from 111SoxFan111. Show 111SoxFan111's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/16/2011 3:56 PM EST

    Meh ... maybe there is no spoon.
     

  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/16/2011 11:00 PM EST

    I definitely went after harness for his brick-head mentality defending Tek and Wake. My just reward is that both players are soon to be gone.

    I supported Wake until about June 2011, and I stopped supporting Tek in 2010... not out of disrespect or venom, just pure baseball factors.  Tek should have been let go at the end of 2010 and Wake let go once 2011 ended.

    It is exciting to move on.
     

  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/16/2011 11:02 PM EST

    What happens to aging basball players at the end of their careers? Really?

    Go watch Bull Durham.  You'll recognize the scene...
     

  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/16/2011 11:06 PM EST

    You mean watching Salty stab at Wake's pitches wasn't exciting enough?

    Watching "wooden" VTek trying to bend over to pick up a dropped ball wasn't enjoyable?

    Watching "flopping", potato salad smorgasbord-loving Wake make Jacoby sprint to the alley isn't fun for you?

    Man, I thought you had some life in there somewhere, burr...
     

  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/16/2011 11:14 PM EST

    The Red Sox should have addressed the catching postion in the winter of 2009-10. 2010 was the year for Tek to be a mentor, not 2011 and certainly not 2012.


     

  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/17/2011 12:53 AM EST

    In Response to Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?:
    The Red Sox should have addressed the catching postion in the winter of 2009-10. 2010 was the year for Tek to be a mentor, not 2011 and certainly not 2012.
    Posted by BurritoT

    I was shocked when they paid him $5M for 2009. They had a nice chance to really stick it to Bora$$. (Don't believe anything softy says: I argued for pages and pages with harness over the signing.) I had hopes that Kotaras was the real deal. He had been pumped up as a prospect. He still might end up being a good hitting catcher.  The VMart deal was an admition that they had little confidence in VTek as a FT catcher.  We had a few catcher prospects in our system, but none really rose up enough.

    The $5M/2 deal for 2010-2011 was strange in its length, and I guess the Salty trade maybe gave VTek some value as a mentor. His knowledge of the position, the opponent's batters and our staff might be unrivalled, but his arm went from barely accetable to horrid. I disagree with those that say he was too "wooden" to block bad pitches of make defensive plays. He wasn't that bad, and he made up for it in his handling of the staff. 

    I know you have heard me defend VTek's hitting a number of times, but I really think many posters do not realize the true state of MLB catching offense these days. As bad as VTek's hitting has seemed to be the last 3 years, he still hit 32 HRs, 41 DBLs, and had 103 RBIs in 698 ABs. Out of the 30 catchers with over 790 PAs over the past year, VTek placed 19th. These are almost all starting MLB catchers, and the list includes VMart and Napoli who are more DHs than Cs. VTek's OPS was better than Buck, Torrealba, AJ Pier, Russell Martin, Olivio, and more. Did you see what Buck got paid?  

    Yeah, a .216 BA and .306 is hard to swallow, but did you know over a third of all MLB teams had a team catcher OBP below .311 since 2009?  17 teams had a worse OPS than VTek had the last 3 years. 6 more teams were just 10 points or less better than VTek. Basically only 7 teams had a team catcher OPS 10 points or higher than VTek's. The numbers don't lie. He wasn't as bad as people think with the bat.

    We can argue till the cows come home about CERA and a catcher's influence on individual pitchers, so I won't go there, but the numbers are well documented: we won more with VTek than others. Would we have continued to win more with him as he got older and older? Very probably not. Will pitchers learn to pitch better with Salty? Probably yes, especially if Bobby V allows him to catch everyone. I think we will be OK at the catcher position in 2012. I am worried about the CERA thing, but am hoping pitchers adjust quickly....guys like Beckett and Bard especially.

    I'm sure VTek knows the numbers. He knows when he catches we win. It's hard to quit when you feel you are helping your team win, even if maybe your role influences the result in a smaller and smaller way each year. When you are a competitor like VTek, and your team wins 42 out of the 64 games you catch, you feel good after each win.  You want to keep it going. Like a drug. 

    I'll always remember Vtek as a winner. His personal life is his own. We don't know what happened to cause his issues there. We don't know for sure what happened (or all that happened) in the clubhouse this summer. Probably everyone has some regrets and wishes for some do-overs, but I really think this whole "blame game" mentality is getting out of hand here, and in our society as a whole. Nobody is perfect, and harping on those worthy of blame is bad enough, but to heap piles and piles of blame on a warrior like VTek without sufficient evidence is just plain wrong. Nobody here knows all that went on. We may never know. 

    It's time to put it all behind us, be merry, and look forward to 2012.

     

  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/17/2011 5:23 AM EST

    I definitely went after harness for his brick-head mentality defending Tek and Wake. My just reward is that both players are soon to be gone.

    Amen! And if it were up to harness and moonslob, Wastefield and Varitek would be back in 2012 and getting millions.

    We know the clubhouse was a frathouse. We know that Varitek was the Captain of the Red Sox Union. We know that Varitek's services were terminated despite his public campaign that he plans to play 2 or 3 more years.  

     

  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/17/2011 6:42 AM EST

    moon really that is a great post but it does not change anything. In fact you will see the Sox chose to sign Shoppach who may be a worse hitter than Tek but you know what he has over Tek (other than a better arm and more mobility)?  He has youth.  Eight years more young - and there is the stat that wins.
     

  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from tellthatonegoodbye. Show tellthatonegoodbye's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/17/2011 8:58 AM EST

    In Response to Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?:
    I thought the sox handled the situation well. Besides, it isn't like tek is going to suffer financially. I follow some cub fans and writers on twitter. There is talk that both tek and wake are talking to Theo.
    Posted by jackbu


    Bull. Theo isn't gonna open that door again. Wakefield was a joke last year. I could see him MAYBE signing Tek as a backup or staff member, but you can bet that Theo was happy to walk from the Tek and Wake "issue". Not seeing it.
     

  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/17/2011 9:05 AM EST

    beckett will be gone by the season's start....he was the main culprit and it makes no sense to get rid of tito and tek if you leave that ingrate on the team....lackey is already gone and lester has at least addressed the meltdown...

    josh is the clubhouse cancer and needs to be traded and then we can put this behind us...not until then
     

  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/17/2011 9:18 AM EST

    In Response to Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?:
    beckett will be gone by the season's start....he was the main culprit and it makes no sense to get rid of tito and tek if you leave that ingrate on the team....lackey is already gone and lester has at least addressed the meltdown... josh is the clubhouse cancer and needs to be traded and then we can put this behind us...not until then
    Posted by georom4


    Beckett is giving the team a Manny-style headache because he's a clubhouse problem but he's also a top talent...I don't see him being moved at this point.  They've got other things to do.  I think they hope that last year's debacle plus a new manager will smarten Beckett up.
     

  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What happens to guys like Veritek?

    posted at 12/17/2011 10:34 AM EST

    I definitely went after harness for his brick-head mentality defending Tek and Wake. My just reward is that both players are soon to be gone.

    Classic softy, changing my statement and making it appear like he is quoting what I said.

    Amen! And if it were up to harness and moonslob, Wastefield and Varitek would be back in 2012 and getting millions. 

    Agian, you show your complete inability to comprehend the written word. I said I would consider offering Wake $1M-1.5M to be our 6/7th starter. I said if Papi does not return, VTek could be an option as our back-up catcher at $1.15M. If Papi does return, VTek is gone. Well, Papi is here, so the VTek deal is off the table. That leaves only Wake "as an option"- one of several. $1M to 1.5M is not "millions".

    We know the clubhouse was a frathouse.

    1) No we don't. 
    2) To some extent, every clubhouse is a frathouse.

    We know that Varitek was the Captain of the Red Sox Union. 

    1) You are dreaming if you think Vtek was anything more than a ceremonial captain. Back-up catchers who are only on the field about 40% of the time can not be expected to be true captains.
    2) If you really think any captain in the world could and would have made a difference, you fail to understand the state of the sportsworld today.

    We know that Varitek's services were terminated despite his public campaign that he plans to play 2 or 3 more years. 

    1) You need to revist Logic 101. If A+B=C, it does NOT follow that A+D=C.
    2) Are you admitting that if VTek had been a great captain, this new GM would have looked at VTek's record (both offensively and defensively) and judged VTek worthy of offering a contract? Haven't you been saying VTek is a bum for 4 years now? Coudn't there be a slight percentage of a chance he was not offered a deal based on the fact that Ben agrees with you (not me) that VTek stinks? 
    3) Could Ben be as bigoted and narrow-minded as you and just not want VTek because he folled around on his wife?

    (Don't answer, silly clown, we already know what your silly responses will be: more deception, misrepresentation of my positions and the facts, and some insults on the way.)

    You must really enjoy staining the reputations of Sox greats. Will you later call VTek your favorite player as you did after bashing Mikey for a full season?