How did Gonzalez get all the way to the Dodgers unclaimed?
Yes, he has a big contract, but it's a bargain compared to the recent ones signed by other slugging 1B.
How did Baltimore not calim him? They tried to spend more money on Mark Teixeira 3 years ago. They've used Jim Thome at DH this year! How is that not a match worth trying a claim on?
How did the Cardinals not claim him? Gonzalez would be a great candidate to replace Pujols. Yes, he is no Pujols, but he is a lot closer than Allen Craig.
It seems odd to say, but Ned Colletti does get it...
What I don't get?
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What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 1:10 AM EDT
- notin
- Posts: 8499
- First: 9/2/2006
- Last: 6/18/2013
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Re: What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 1:18 AM EDT
- hill55
- Posts: 7757
- First: 1/14/2006
- Last: 6/19/2013
In Response to What I don't get?:How did Gonzalez get all the way to the Dodgers unclaimed? Yes, he has a big contract, but it's a bargain compared to the recent ones signed by other slugging 1B. How did Baltimore not calim him? They tried to spend more money on Mark Teixeira 3 years ago. They've used Jim Thome at DH this year! How is that not a match worth trying a claim on? How did the Cardinals not claim him? Gonzalez would be a great candidate to replace Pujols. Yes, he is no Pujols, but he is a lot closer than Allen Craig. It seems odd to say, but Ned Colletti does get it...
Posted by notin
With their better record, the Cardinals had a lower priority than the Dodgers.
The Adrian Gonzalez contract may compare favorably to those for Albert Pujols, Prince Fielder, Mark Teixeira, Ryan Howard and others, but a long-term contract is rarely a bargain. A contract is not necessarily a bargain just because it's better than a bad contract. -
Re: What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 1:20 AM EDT
- GreenPartyCelt
- Posts: 845
- First: 8/13/2012
- Last: 5/24/2013
What I don't get are all the Red Sox fans who are thinking that this salary dump will be the basis of a miraculous rebuilding effort with great starting pitching around the corner....Like Felix??? I doubt it...Or another offensive superstar like Josh Hamilton..I'm sure he would love to be in the Boston media fishbowl with his history....I can see the Beckett dump, but I would never give Crawford up unless I got something serious back...Not Rubby, Loney and company...Then you throw in an All-Star 1B who is a very clutch hitter and plays great defense...Crazy...Absolutely crazy.... -
Re: What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 1:20 AM EDT
- rightymclefty
- Posts: 661
- First: 6/21/2012
- Last: 11/21/2012
Allen Craig is htting .318, with 19 HRs, 68 RBI and a 961 OPS! He's 28 years old, and dirt cheap.
Hell, I wouldn't want Gonzalez, and his 22 million, and .812 OPS, 149 points lower than Craig, when I could have a guy like Craig, and his production.
As for Greenparty, Crawford reperesent THE WORST CONTRACT IN RED SOX HISTORY.
Damned right they jumped at a chance to dump him. What could they get for a one armed OF, who can only pay LF, with not much power and horrid OBP.
Good riddance! -
Re: What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 1:23 AM EDT
- notin
- Posts: 8499
- First: 9/2/2006
- Last: 6/18/2013
In Response to Re: What I don't get?:Allen Craig is htting .318, with 19 HRs, 68 RBI and a 961 OPS! He's 28 years old, and dirt cheap. Hell, I wouldn't want Gonzalez, and his 22 million, and .812 OPS, 149 points lower than Craig , when I could have a guy like Craig, and his production.
Posted by rightymclefty
And plays anywhere, and unlikely to ever do this again... -
Re: What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 1:23 AM EDT
- moonslav59
- Posts: 35065
- First: 9/27/2005
- Last: 6/18/2013
Dumping CC is worth giving AGon away for free.Any prospects we get are a bonus. -
Re: What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 1:23 AM EDT
- BostonTrollSpanker
- Posts: 4668
- First: 9/2/2009
- Last: 6/19/2013
" What I don't get are all the Red Sox fans"Wouldn't expect you to understand. That's ok, This is something only Red Sox fans can understand. Moving these contracts has to happen. -
Re: What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 1:33 AM EDT
- GreenPartyCelt
- Posts: 845
- First: 8/13/2012
- Last: 5/24/2013
In Response to Re: What I don't get?:Dumping CC is worth giving AGon away for free. Any prospects we get are a bonus.
Posted by moonslav59
Moon....I have nothing but respect for your baseball savvy...But this to me is about an ownership cutting its losses...Not about an owner committed to building a winning franchise...People will regret letting A-Gon and CC go for nothing in return...To assume all these fantasy trades will then shore up the Red Sox with that freed up money is very presumptuous in my opinion...And while Ciriaco and Middlebrooks are awesome, they cannot pitch... -
Re: What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 1:55 AM EDT
- moonslav59
- Posts: 35065
- First: 9/27/2005
- Last: 6/18/2013
Moon....I have nothing but respect for your baseball savvy...But this to me is about an ownership cutting its losses...Not about an owner committed to building a winning franchise...People will regret letting A-Gon and CC go for nothing in return...1) I said I would do it for nothing, but we are getting some decent prospects. We could deal for Justin Upton, and all would be forgetten, right?2) To think we will not spend any of the savings on other players is not realistic. Yes, it will be hard to replace AGon's numbers, but replacing what CC has given us so far can easily be an improvement by just extending Ross and playing him in LF next year. Replacing what Beckett did this year is not impossible with a cheaper FA like McCarthy, Sanchez or Marcum, or we could deal for Shiled.To assume all these fantasy trades will then shore up the Red Sox with that freed up money is very presumptuous in my opinion...And while Ciriaco and Middlebrooks are awesome, they cannot pitch...Apparently, neither can Josh. -
Re: What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 2:18 AM EDT
- GreenPartyCelt
- Posts: 845
- First: 8/13/2012
- Last: 5/24/2013
In Response to Re: What I don't get?:Moon....I have nothing but respect for your baseball savvy...But this to me is about an ownership cutting its losses...Not about an owner committed to building a winning franchise...People will regret letting A-Gon and CC go for nothing in return... 1) I said I would do it for nothing, but we are getting some decent prospects. We could deal for Justin Upton, and all would be forgetten, right? 2) To think we will not spend any of the savings on other players is not realistic. Yes, it will be hard to replace AGon's numbers, but replacing what CC has given us so far can easily be an improvement by just extending Ross and playing him in LF next year. Replacing what Beckett did this year is not impossible with a cheaper FA like McCarthy, Sanchez or Marcum, or we could deal for Shiled. To assume all these fantasy trades will then shore up the Red Sox with that freed up money is very presumptuous in my opinion...And while Ciriaco and Middlebrooks are awesome, they cannot pitch... Apparently, neither can Josh.
Posted by moonslav59Justin Upton will not come cheap...And I guess I just thought Crawford showed a lot of positive upside while he played with a damaged left elbow...Since he is not a pitcher, his long-term prognosis to come back from TJ surgery strong might be a pretty positive one...He certainly will not be firing 90 mph fastballs off of a pitchers mound...But I think that there is this fantasy baseball mentality afoot that the freed up money will NOW be spent wisely or even spent at all...Sure if you got Felix and some other decent starting pitching as a result of all this, I might change my mind...But something tells me that the King Felixes and other ace pitchers out there might not now want to come to the Boston fishbowl and pitch in the Fenway bandbox...And something tells me that offensive stars like Hamilton or even Upton might not want to deal with the media scrutiny either...And I am sorry, but to me letting go of A-Gon would be unforgivable...It is a BIG and LONG contract, and he is not hitting the number of homers that RSN expected...But he is still an offensive force and a pretty clutch hitter, as well as an excellent defensive first baseman...What I see next year is a gutted Red Sox team that Big Papi might even leave, a franchise that has been tainted and whose rebuilding project will not be a swift one...IMHO, RSN is in denial tonight...Big time...The catharsis of something "radical" being done might be nice, but the long term prognosis is a very questionable one... -
Re: What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 2:41 AM EDT
- moonslav59
- Posts: 35065
- First: 9/27/2005
- Last: 6/18/2013
Justin Upton will not come cheap...And I guess I just thought Crawford showed a lot of positive upside while he played with a damaged left elbow...Since he is not a pitcher, his long-term prognosis to come back from TJ surgery strong might be a pretty positive one...He certainly will not be firing 90 mph fastballs off of a pitchers mound..One, my grandma could throw harder than CC on his best day.Two, even if 100% healthy for the next 5 years, CC might not even be worth $10M x 5.Three, I'd rather pay Ross $8M x 3 than CC $20M x 5..But I think that there is this fantasy baseball mentality afoot that the freed up money will NOW be spent wisely or even spent at all...Excellent point, but I really see this as, we can't do any worse. I was laughed at for suggesting Adam Dunn in LF 2 years ago, but he now looks like a bargain compared to CC.Sure if you got Felix and some other decent starting pitching as a result of all this, I might change my mind...But something tells me that the King Felixes and other ace pitchers out there might not now want to come to the Boston fishbowl and pitch in the Fenway bandbox..CC is not coming here. They'd want out top 5-6 prospects, which I would give if his salary was $4M a year x 5..And something tells me that offensive stars like Hamilton or even Upton mightvnot want to deal with the media scrutiny either...Could be, but Upton does not have 10/5 rights.And I am sorry, but to me letting go of A-Gon would be unforgivable...It is a BIG and LONG contract, andhe is not hitting the number of homers that RSN expected...But he is still an offensive force and a pretty clutch hitter, as well as an excellent defensive first baseman...I like AGon, but saying goodbye to CC trumps all. Most here said it couldn't be done. We need to pounce, or it would really be "unforgivable".What I see next year is a gutted Red Sox team that Big Paapi might even leave, a franchise that has been tainted and whose rebuilding project will not be a swift one...IMHO, RSN is in denial tonight...Big time...The catharsis of something "radical" being done might be nicce, but the long term prognosis is a very questionable one...I'm not predicting a WS run next year without these guys, but I do think we can win more than 2012, and with Bradley, Barnes, Bogaerts, Brentz and others rising quickly, I don't think the wait will be any longer than if we held onto these guys and had our hands tied on any trade or big signing due to finances.I could see us trading Lava and another top prospect or tow for Shields.I could see us trading Doubront, Brentz, Iggy, Melancon, and Ranaudo for Justin Upton.I could see us signing Marcum, Ross and maybe even Montero.It may take more, but we have some prospects coming from LA ato sweeten the pot.We could see this...1) Ellsbury CF2) Pedroia 2B3) J Upton RF4) Papi DH5) Montero C6) Midds 3B7) Ross LF8) Salty/Gomez or bridge 1 year FA 1B9) Ciriaco/AvilesS1 ShieldsS2 LesterS3 BuchS4 MarcumS5 MoralesS6 LackeyCL BaileyR2 AcevesR3 BreslowR4 MillerR5 MortensenR6 Atchison/R HillR7 Tazawa/BardI'm not saying this will happen, but we can instantly be better at way less the cost with this example. -
Re: What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 3:25 AM EDT
- Alibiike
- Posts: 3097
- First: 2/1/2011
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In response to "Re: What I don't get?":Dumping CC is worth giving AGon away for free. Any prospects we get are a bonus. Posted by moonslav59That is by far the dumbest post I've ever seen from you. -
Re: What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 3:44 AM EDT
- moonslav59
- Posts: 35065
- First: 9/27/2005
- Last: 6/18/2013
That is by far the dumbest post I've ever seen from you.Dude, we are spending $43M a year until 2017 on these two and CC is useless.You don't think we can get a 1Bman and LF'er better than these 2 for $42M?The fatc is, we can get a 1Bman, LF'er, SP and some super subs for that dough....every year for 5 more years.I'm not in favor of signing Hamilton or Greinke, and I don't think this is what the Sox have in mind, , but I'd rather have Hamilton (~$24M x 5) and Gomez/Lava at 1B (no added cost), and Greinke (~$19M x 5) than CC and AGon.Or, Ross in LF (~$8M x 3), Montero at C ($16M x 5), & Greinke ($19M)Or, .... -
Re: What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 7:08 AM EDT
- Flattiehater
- Posts: 654
- First: 7/22/2008
- Last: 5/5/2013
In Response to What I don't get?:How did Gonzalez get all the way to the Dodgers unclaimed? Yes, he has a big contract, but it's a bargain compared to the recent ones signed by other slugging 1B. How did Baltimore not calim him? They tried to spend more money on Mark Teixeira 3 years ago. They've used Jim Thome at DH this year! How is that not a match worth trying a claim on? How did the Cardinals not claim him? Gonzalez would be a great candidate to replace Pujols. Yes, he is no Pujols, but he is a lot closer than Allen Craig. It seems odd to say, but Ned Colletti does get it...
Posted by notin
I believe that this possible trade has more to do with the Dodgers than the Red Sox. At least originally. Los Angeles sees a real chance with the time left to gain the pieces to get them by the Giants and become a favorite to compete with Washington, especially if they pull Strasburg for the remainder of the season. This trade would surely put them in position to make the playoffs and be a favorite to be in the NLCS and maybe the WS. I may be in the minority but the piece I regret losing most is CC. He may be overpaid but before his surgery he showed signs of the player he used to be and I believe that he will be that player again. For how long I don't know but his loss may be regrettable. -
Re: What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 8:02 AM EDT
- parhunter55
- Posts: 829
- First: 3/30/2012
- Last: 4/10/2013
Got to disagree with moon on this one. Crawford may not be worth 20 million a year, but he is a good ballplayer and will put up some good years for LA if he goes there, mark my words. And giving them Gonzalez to facilitate the Crawford salary dump is really ridiculous. Gonzalez may not have hit the HRs we all expected, but he has been the best clutch hitter on this team for two seasons.
The money saved is useful only if it is spent. But spending it means more overpaid talent and bad deals.
I suspect that this trade, if it goes down is really about 2 things (neither a good sign for this team): 1) The ownership feels they can have a .500 team at far less money and much higher profitability...fans filled most of the seats for ove a year of dismal play, they'll continue to do it even if the roster is filled with decent, if not all-star caliber players; and 2) Gonzalez wants out in the worst way (maybe even asked to be traded after calling the anti-management meeting...one has to wonder why a player of his caliber does not want to play in Boston and how much that will affect others wanting to play in Boston as well.
In any case...this trade is NOT going to improve this team, now or in the long run. If I were working out this trade I would demand the top 4 starting pitching prospects the Dodgers have and take on James Loney as a favor. Forget DeJesus and Sands. Neither is a star in the making, and the Sox DO NOT have any need for so-so infielders and outfielders, regardless of their age. -
Re: What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 8:17 AM EDT
- Beantowne
- Posts: 3477
- First: 6/30/2008
- Last: 6/15/2013
In Response to What I don't get?:How did Gonzalez get all the way to the Dodgers unclaimed? Yes, he has a big contract, but it's a bargain compared to the recent ones signed by other slugging 1B. How did Baltimore not calim him? They tried to spend more money on Mark Teixeira 3 years ago. They've used Jim Thome at DH this year! How is that not a match worth trying a claim on? How did the Cardinals not claim him? Gonzalez would be a great candidate to replace Pujols. Yes, he is no Pujols, but he is a lot closer than Allen Craig. It seems odd to say, but Ned Colletti does get it...
Posted by notin
It does seem curious that Gonzalez would'nt have been claimed by an American League Club. His limited no trade may have played a role, if for example the Orioles were on the list. The Sox would then have had to release him outright and allow the Orioles to assume his contract. Neting nothing in return. Aside from them the only other AL teams with the need, were the A's and Ray's, teams that clearly can't afford a player making 20M per...
In the National League; The Cardinals didn't have the chance to put in a claim based on the current standings (see below)...Doubt they would have, if given the chance based on the money's owed. Aside from the Card's and Dodgers, the only other team in the NL Race that might have bitten was the Giant's...American League AMERICAN W L PCT GB Texas 74 51 .592 - NY Yankees 73 52 .584 1 Chicago Sox 69 55 .556 4.5 Tampa Bay 70 56 .556 4.5 Oakland 68 57 .544 6 Baltimore 68 57 .544 6 Detroit 67 58 .536 7 LA Angels 66 60 .524 8.5 Seattle 61 65 .484 14 Boston 60 66 .476 15 Toronto 56 69 .448 18 Kansas City 55 69 .444 19 Cleveland 54 71 .432 20 Minnesota 51 74 .408 23 National League NATIONAL W L PCT GB Washington 77 48 .616 - Cincinnati 76 51 .598 2 San Francisco 71 55 .563 6.5 Atlanta 71 55 .563 6.5 St. Louis 69 56 .552 8 LA Dodgers 68 58 .540 9.5 Pittsburgh 67 58 .536 10 Arizona 64 62 .508 14 Philadelphia 59 67 .468 19 Milwaukee 58 66 .468 19 NY Mets 57 69 .452 21 Miami 57 70 .449 21 San Diego 57 70 .449 21 Colorado 50 74 .403 27 Chicago Cubs 48 76 .387 29 Houston 40 86 .317 38 -
Re: What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 8:38 AM EDT
- Alibiike
- Posts: 3097
- First: 2/1/2011
- Last: 6/3/2013
In response to "Re: What I don't get?":That is by far the dumbest post I've ever seen from you. Dude, we are spending $43M a year until 2017 on these two and CC is useless. You don't think we can get a 1Bman and LF'er better than these 2 for $42M? The fatc is, we can get a 1Bman, LF'er, SP and some super subs for that dough.... every year for 5 more years. I'm not in favor of signing Hamilton or Greinke, and I don't think this is what the Sox have in mind, , but I'd rather have Hamilton (~$24M x 5) and Gomez/Lava at 1B (no added cost), and Greinke (~$19M x 5) than CC and AGon. Or, Ross in LF (~$8M x 3), Montero at C ($16M x 5), & Greinke ($19M) Or, .... Posted by moonslav59Who is we? Who cares what Henry and Co spend? What does it matter? What matters is a championship. The $$$$ are irrelevant , The value of a player should not be based on $$$$, but on desire, and a willingness to put team ahead of self. Podsednik is just as valuable as Agon. You guys act as though the salaries are coming out of your pocket. The only way it impacts you is in ticket and concession prices. Agon's salary is not hamstringing the Sox, nether was Beckett's or CCs. If you believe that the sox are financially strapped, that's idiotic. Beckett and CC needed to go but not at the expense of the best player the Sox have (had). -
Re: What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 8:42 AM EDT
- andrewmitch
- Posts: 16690
- First: 6/4/2005
- Last: 9/23/2012
In Response to Re: What I don't get?:In response to "Re: What I don't get?": Who is we? Who cares what Henry and Co spend? What does it matter? What matters is a championship. The $$$$ are irrelevant , The value of a player should not be based on $$$$, but on desire, and a willingness to put team ahead of self. Podsednik is just as valuable as Agon. You guys act as though the salaries are coming out of your pocket. The only way it impacts you is in ticket and concession prices. Agon's salary is not hamstringing the Sox, nether was Beckett's or CCs. If you believe that the sox are financially strapped, that's idiotic. Beckett and CC needed to go but not at the expense of the best player the Sox have (had).
Posted by Alibiike
Alright then, money means nothing. Budgets mean nothing. Pretty soon all tickets will be free too....... -
This post has been removed.
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Re: What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 8:43 AM EDT
- MadMc44
- Posts: 2643
- First: 12/13/2008
- Last: 6/18/2013
Moon save your frustration---remember who you are dealing with. You are right---trade for Montero and Upton and sign Napoli as the 1B and Ross for LF. Montero may not be as good a catcher as Lav but he will rake at Fenway and perhaps take Ortiz's place as DH.Starting pitching --let's see what shakes out when the trade dust settles and we see how the prospects do in Sept. -
Re: What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 8:44 AM EDT
- andrewmitch
- Posts: 16690
- First: 6/4/2005
- Last: 9/23/2012
In Response to Re: What I don't get?:Moon save your frustration---remember who you are dealing with. You are right---trade for Montero and Upton and sign Napoli as the 1B and Ross for LF. Montero may not be as good a catcher as Lav but he will rake at Fenway and perhaps take Ortiz's place as DH. Starting pitching --let's see what shakes out when the trade dust settles and we see how the prospects do in Sept.
Posted by MadMc44
Be aware of Upton......... -
Re: What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 10:20 AM EDT
- Encinitas
- Posts: 1847
- First: 5/30/2008
- Last: 5/13/2013
In Response to Re: What I don't get?:Moon....I have nothing but respect for your baseball savvy...But this to me is about an ownership cutting its losses...Not about an owner committed to building a winning franchise...People will regret letting A-Gon and CC go for nothing in return... 1) I said I would do it for nothing, but we are getting some decent prospects. We could deal for Justin Upton, and all would be forgetten, right? 2) To think we will not spend any of the savings on other players is not realistic. Yes, it will be hard to replace AGon's numbers, but replacing what CC has given us so far can easily be an improvement by just extending Ross and playing him in LF next year. Replacing what Beckett did this year is not impossible with a cheaper FA like McCarthy, Sanchez or Marcum, or we could deal for Shiled. To assume all these fantasy trades will then shore up the Red Sox with that freed up money is very presumptuous in my opinion...And while Ciriaco and Middlebrooks are awesome, they cannot pitch... Apparently, neither can Josh.
Posted by moonslav59
Moon
AGon's historical numbers would be hard to replace. His current numbers...not so much.
Finding a replacement for Beckett is easy - there are plenty of pitchers that throw 92MPH and tote a 5 ERA.
This is the best Red Sox front office action since Schilling and Nomar trades -
Re: What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 11:46 AM EDT
- moonslav59
- Posts: 35065
- First: 9/27/2005
- Last: 6/18/2013
Who is we? Who cares what Henry and Co spend? What does it matter? What matters is a championship. The $$$$ are irrelevant ,We do not have an unlimited budget, so yes, money does matter, and yes it is about evaluating who gets more bang for the buck-like it or not.The value of a player should not be based on $$$$, but on desire, and a willingness to put team ahead of self. Podsednik is just as valuable as Agon.Then we can sign 20 Pods with AGon's money.
You guys act as though the salaries are coming out of your pocket.No I don't, but I know that Henry was not going to go to $200M, so it's give and take, like it or not.
The only way it impacts you is in ticket and concession prices.Not really.
Agon's salary is not hamstringing the Sox, nether was Beckett's or CCs. If you believe that the sox are financially strapped, that's idiotic. Beckett and CC needed to go but not at the expense of the best player the Sox have (had).I know Henry could pay $300M a year, but I also know he will not, and that is what you are ignoring. Our budget is limited, and our GM has to work within certain boundaries. Thinking that CC and Beckett weren't hampering our ability to field a strong team shows a glaring weakness in your thought proccess. -
Re: What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 11:53 AM EDT
- moonslav59
- Posts: 35065
- First: 9/27/2005
- Last: 6/18/2013
Moon save your frustration---remember who you are dealing with. You are right---trade for Montero and Upton and sign Napoli as the 1B and Ross for LF. Montero may not be as good a catcher as Lav but he will rake at Fenway and perhaps take Ortiz's place as DH.Miguel Montero is a FA.If we sign him, AZ needa a catcher and we'd have 3 (Montero, Salty & Lava). That's a start to building a trade for Upton.Don't short-changeMiguel Montero's skillset. He's only 29, and many catchers reach prime from 30-34. He has a career .348 OBP and is at .390 this year. He has 20 HR power. This year, he is on a 650 PA pace of .280 20 110. He kills RHPs, but struggles vs LHPs, so if we could find another Shoppach or use Lava vs LHPs at catcher, we'd have nice offense from the catcher position. -
Re: What I don't get?
posted at 8/25/2012 11:56 AM EDT
- rightymclefty
- Posts: 661
- First: 6/21/2012
- Last: 11/21/2012
Anyone have any idea why Lin was recalled?
Is there another move involving an OF in the worlks?
Maybe Ross is going?