What I don't get?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

    In Response to Re: What I don't get?:
    [QUOTE]That is by far the dumbest post I've ever seen from you. Dude, we are spending $43M a year until 2017 on these two and CC is useless. You don't think we can get a 1Bman and LF'er better than these 2 for $42M? The fatc is, we can get a 1Bman, LF'er, SP and some super subs for that dough.... every year for 5 more years. I'm not in favor of signing Hamilton or Greinke, and I don't think this is what the Sox have in mind, , but I'd rather have Hamilton (~$24M x 5) and Gomez/Lava at 1B (no added cost), and Greinke (~$19M x 5) than CC and AGon.  Or, Ross in LF (~$8M x 3), Montero at C ($16M x 5), & Greinke ($19M) Or, ....
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    I appreciate your solid grasp on this situation. This trade looks to me like a no-brainer. Finally Red Sox fans can be optimistic about the future. Maybe not next year, but shortly thereafter.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

    In Response to Re: What I don't get?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: What I don't get? : I appreciate your solid grasp on this situation. This trade looks to me like a no-brainer. Finally Red Sox fans can be optimistic about the future. Maybe not next year, but shortly thereafter.
    Posted by pumpsie-green[/QUOTE]


    3-5, IMO pumpie. Firesale on all pink hats 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

    In Response to Re: What I don't get?:
    [QUOTE]In response to "Re: What I don't get?": That is by far the dumbest post I've ever seen from you.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]Perhaps not. If the reports are true the RS were able to dump Crawford and Beckett while only eating $11M. Forget Beckett's salary for a second or that the RS would have absolutely zero leverage in dealing the guy who has become the target of so much fan and media angst in Boston.

    The RS get out of Crawford's contract for just over $2M a year for the next 5 years. Crawford if he returned to his career stats before he came to Boston was a bad value at $20M a year. Good base stealer, a lifetime .340 OBP with an average of 15 HRs and while he could make web gem plays also had his share of brain cramp moments in the field and on the basepaths. It may have been the worst FA contract ever. 

    So they had to include A-Gon who clearly did not enjoy the media's approach in Boston one bit.

    The ownership has been attacked for two years as not giving a darn. Their team is under .500 and they are being vilafied while spending $170M. If you are going to be vilafied by the media and field a loser, it sure will feel better at $90M than it did at $170M.

    My bet is that Ross and Ortiz are gone at the end of the year and the RS bust their tails trying to trade Lester and Ellsbury too. The will be back but the Rs are in for a 5 year plus rebuild because the prospects they got from LA aren't the haul the Indians got for Bartolo Colon and the system is not that deep a devoid of potential superstars. 

    For those that wanted to just blow it up, here we are...this is the beginning of the end of a great era in Boston sports. The Celtics aren't far behind in fading into irrelevance and the Pats are built around a 34 year old QB without a front line to protect him...

    Flippin' sad ...
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

    In Response to Re: What I don't get?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: What I don't get? : Perhaps not. If the reports are true the RS were able to dump Crawford and Beckett while only eating $11M. Forget Beckett's salary for a second or that the RS would have absolutely zero leverage in dealing the guy who has become the target of so much fan and media angst in Boston. The RS get out of Crawford's contract for just over $2M a year for the next 5 years. Crawford if he returned to his career stats before he came to Boston was a bad value at $20M a year. Good base stealer, a lifetime .340 OBP with an average of 15 HRs and while he could make web gem plays also had his share of brain cramp moments in the field and on the basepaths. It may have been the worst FA contract ever.  So they had to include A-Gon who clearly did not enjoy the media's approach in Boston one bit. The ownership has been attacked for two years as not giving a darn. Their team is under .500 and they are being vilafied while spending $170M. If you are going to be vilafied by the media and field a loser, it sure will feel better at $90M than it did at $170M. My bet is that Ross and Ortiz are gone at the end of the year and the RS bust their tails trying to trade Lester and Ellsbury too. The will be back but the Rs are in for a 5 year plus rebuild because the prospects they got from LA aren't the haul the Indians got for Bartolo Colon and the system is not that deep a devoid of potential superstars.  For those that wanted to just blow it up, here we are...this is the beginning of the end of a great era in Boston sports. The Celtics aren't far behind in fading into irrelevance and the Pats are built around a 34 year old QB without a front line to protect him... Flippin' sad ...
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    To oversimplify this deal, one can look at it like this: CC and Beckett may not have even been at zero value.  Let's say Beckett was worth $7-9M for the nest 2 years, and CC was worth $7-9M over the next 5 years, and AGon was worth $22M for the next 6 years. 
    Maybe their total worth was:

    2013: $40M (All 3)
    2014: $38M (All 3)
    2015: $30M (AGon/CC only)
    2016: $30M    "  "
    2017: $28M   "   "
    2018: $20M (AGon only)

    Total "market value": $180-190M 
    Actual combined cost: $270M

    Total savings: $80-90M.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

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    [QUOTE]I think Crawford has reached a point in his career where he's going to be hurt as much as he's healthy and let's face it, Beckett has lost three or four mph off his fastball and he just isn't the pitcher he once was. I'm not crazy about Gonzalez leaving, but I get the impression he doesn't want to be here and he can be replaced for a lot less than 21M. I'd rather see the Red Sox make this trade than not make it.
    Posted by davetheknave[/QUOTE]

    Definitely agree with you.  I also believe that Gonzalez isn't happy in Boston and even though I will miss him it is easier to find another 1st baseman.  Trading Beckett is a good move and I always thought the Red Sox had to make some trades after last season and it didn't happen. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

    All of you might want to read up on the Liverpool soccer teams woes since this FO took over. The Sox are merely following in those footsteps it appears. Of course only time will tell, but I would not expect the Sox to go back to the salary levels of the past few years. Whether or not they can put together a team to challenge the AL East remains to be seen now.  They have not won anything since 2007 and have been on the downhill slope ever since and now just fell over the cliff.

    This is a great chance to try to build the Sox back to prominence in the AL East where every team has now surpassed the Sox.  This winter will tell the fans which direction the team will be heading next year and I think it will be very refreshing to see some new faces, some new spirit, some new hopes, and most of all something the fans can cheer about again.  It may take a few years, but it's not like fans have had anything to hang their hats on the past 5 years.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

    I really liked ourrising prospects, but now with some more added to the list, I think our future from about 2014& onwards looks much brighter. 

    I also do not think it is too unrealistic to believe we may have a better record next year with just a few mid-level startegic signings and a couple significant trades.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hingham Hammer. Show Hingham Hammer's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

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    [QUOTE]In response to "Re: What I don't get?": Who is we? Who cares what Henry and Co spend? What does it matter? What matters is a championship. The $$$$ are irrelevant , The value of a player should not be based on $$$$, but on desire, and a willingness to put team ahead of self. Podsednik is just as valuable as Agon. You guys act as though the salaries are coming out of your pocket. The only way it impacts you is in ticket and concession prices. Agon's salary is not hamstringing the Sox, nether was Beckett's or CCs. If you believe that the sox are financially strapped, that's idiotic. Beckett and CC needed to go but not at the expense of the best player the Sox have (had).
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]No question Agon was Boston's best player but he has not been the player they expected on or off the field. Power numbers clearly in decline and in a hitters park no less. Championship teams are built around pitching and with the prospects the Sox received coupled with salary relief to go out and get more it was a no brainer. Your position comes as no surprise as you were beating the drum for yet another year of Wakefield.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

    In Response to Re: What I don't get?:
    [QUOTE]Dumping CC is worth giving AGon away for free. Any prospects we get are a bonus.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    ty Moon for concisely stating the big picture...i liked agon too, but to shed these contracts and get rid of beckett?????  it's like christmas in August...
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

    In Response to Re: What I don't get?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: What I don't get? : To oversimplify this deal, one can look at it like this: CC and Beckett may not have even been at zero value.  Let's say Beckett was worth $7-9M for the nest 2 years, and CC was worth $7-9M over the next 5 years, and AGon was worth $22M for the next 6 years.  Maybe their total worth was: 2013: $40M (All 3) 2014: $38M (All 3) 2015: $30M (AGon/CC only) 2016: $30M    "  " 2017: $28M   "   " 2018: $20M (AGon only) Total "market value": $180-190M  Actual combined cost: $270M Total savings: $80-90M.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    According to Fangraphs, Crawford's value had never been below $12.3M until last year.  Gonzalez was valued at $29.5M in 2011, and Beckett at $19.2 (projected to about $10M for 2012).  

    Time will tell, but I think your figures are too low, and it would come out to about a wash.  If you pay a free agent roughly what he's worth, that's a win for the organization.

    Stupid, stupid, disappointing move for the Red Sox.  Selling low on two good players, and throwing in a superstar to dump salary.  I've never been more disappointed in this organization than I am today.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from rightymclefty. Show rightymclefty's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

    Sloman keeps up his endless whining.
    Glad he''s in the deep minority on this rade.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

    In Response to Re: What I don't get?:
    [QUOTE]Sloman keeps up his endless whining. Glad he''s in the deep minority on this rade.
    Posted by rightymclefty[/QUOTE]

    I like baseball.  I like seeing a future HOF-er playing first base.  Apparently, you watch the games and think about how much money John Henry is saving.  Have at it.  I like baseball.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from rightymclefty. Show rightymclefty's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

    Who played 1st base on the 2004 Sox?
    What did they win with your future HOF 1st  baseman?
    I like baseball, too.
    I like to watch young kids like Middlebrooks develop, not overpaid fat cats, with a sense of entitlement.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

    In Response to Re: What I don't get?:
    [QUOTE]Who played 1st base on the 2004 Sox? What did they win with your future HOF 1st  baseman? I like baseball, too. I like to watch young kids like Middlebrooks develop, not overpaid fat cats, with a sense of entitlement.
    Posted by rightymclefty[/QUOTE]

    Good for you.  Every time Mauro Gomez strikes out or boots a ball at first, you can take comfort in the fact that he's paid league minimum.  

    In 2004, Manny Ramirez made $22.5M, which eight years later would still make him the eighth highest paid player in the game.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: What I don't get? : Good for you.  Every time Mauro Gomez strikes out or boots a ball at first, you can take comfort in the fact that he's paid league minimum.   In 2004, Manny Ramirez made $22.5M, which eight years later would still make him the eighth highest paid player in the game.
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    YOU have a better chance of playing first for the Sox next year than Mauro Gomez does, Slomag...
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from michaelsjr. Show michaelsjr's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

    Gonzalez wasn't happy here.  He may do very well returning to West Coast, but he was not happy here.  Beckett may do better elsewhere, but only if he is willing to change his attitude and regain his "focus" on baseball.  He was not willing to do that here.  So for me, regardless of these guys potential, they were not a good fit for Boston.  Crawford signed the deal of a lifetime - as most anybody would.  He came here less than 100% and immediately got hammered from media and fans.  He has had a long road trying to get back to 100%.  His contract was a risk at best, but with all the down time, it has proved just brutal to FO.  Even so, his attitude has been better than Gonzo or Beckett.  Would have liked to keep Crawford and turned him loose in 2013.  Think he would have played his heart out here to redeem himself.  Now he will do that in another uniform. 
    The deal is done and my phone didn't ring for my opinion or my consent.  As a Red Sox fan, I will go with it and look for good moves in off season. Ellsbury and Lester now on waivers...yes I know...means nothing...except this year in Boston it means plenty.  Am hoping that Pedroia and Papi and Bucholtz remain as untouchables, but not willing to bet on it.  Players come and go..my loyalty to the team remains.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hingham Hammer. Show Hingham Hammer's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

    In Response to Re: What I don't get?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: What I don't get? : I like baseball.  I like seeing a future HOF-er playing first base.  Apparently, you watch the games and think about how much money John Henry is saving.  Have at it.  I like baseball.
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]I also like to watch future HOF-er's play. The question you need to ask yourself is, with Agon what have the Sox accomplished? Not suggesting he was the problem by any means just not the solution. The Sox need pitching and the only way to free up salary was to dump Josh and CC. The only way to accomplish that was make Agon available. BTW that also helped the Sox salary situation going forward. Sox problem was never scoring runs. It was keeping the other team off the board. Which brings us back to pitching which the Sox now can address. Last I looked the pitching staff era was getting closer to the national unemployment rate.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from SportingGoods. Show SportingGoods's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

    There is no salary cap in baseball. Fans want to see superstars. Boston
    Red Sox made it to primetime after the wade boggs , greenwell  no star era
    to fielding at least 6-7 allstars big names since epstein era. The owners
    just released their best player on the team and 2 more superstars
    for some no name minor leaguers. Even if they reduce the ticket prices
    its like austerity measures all over again. If you wanna see minor leaguers
    play watch triple A. Who doesnt wanna watch Gonzales and was not
    intrigued by Crawford? And Becket is only hated cause he was so awesome
    recently. Anyways the same team 1 year ago was still playing 600 ball. 
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

    In Response to Re: What I don't get?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: What I don't get? : YOU have a better chance of playing first for the Sox next year than Mauro Gomez does, Slomag...
    Posted by jasko2248[/QUOTE]

    Given the available Free Agents, I'll take Gomez.  http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/04/2013-mlb-free-agents.html
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

    In Response to Re: What I don't get?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: What I don't get? : Given the available Free Agents, I'll take Gomez.   http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/04/2013-mlb-free-agents.html
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    I'd take Youk twice on Sunday over Gomez to play first...By the way, free agency isn't the only vehicle a team can use to fill out a roster.  Recent history with this organization shows that it's not really the most productive way to go, either.  The Sox value defensive at first, as they should, and Gomez doesn't fit the bill...
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from mechrisuk. Show mechrisuk's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

    M. Montero isn't a FA, he signed an extension in May.  Mike Napoli can play 1st base as well. 
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from wetcamelfood. Show wetcamelfood's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

    Only problem I have with this trade is we still have Lackey
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

    In Response to Re: What I don't get?:
    [QUOTE]What I don't get are all the Red Sox fans who are thinking that this salary dump will be the basis of a miraculous rebuilding effort with great starting pitching around the corner....Like Felix??? I doubt it...Or another offensive superstar like Josh Hamilton..I'm sure he would love to be in the Boston media fishbowl with his history.... I can see the Beckett dump, but I would never give Crawford up unless I got something serious back...Not Rubby, Loney and company...Then you throw in an All-Star 1B who is a very clutch hitter and plays great defense...Crazy...Absolutely crazy....
    Posted by GreenPartyCelt[/QUOTE]

    NYY fan.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: What I don't get?

    In Response to Re: What I don't get?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: What I don't get? : Good for you.  Every time Mauro Gomez strikes out or boots a ball at first, you can take comfort in the fact that he's paid league minimum.   In 2004, Manny Ramirez made $22.5M, which eight years later would still make him the eighth highest paid player in the game.
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    Difference beig ManRam's production made him worth the money. AG never did that. He put up some numbers, but they weren't as good as advertised, and were rarely CLUTCH. One thing you can't say about ManRam is that he wasn't clutch.
     

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