What is our real concern?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    ...Your thoughts are quite parallel to those of Moonslav. You want to sacrifice having a competitive team entirely in 2013 and 2014 and let fans wait it out until the prospects are ready in 2015

     

    My plan had us being just as good in 2013 as we are now, but better in 2015 and beyond, so stop the propaganda.



    moon is a respected poster who can speak for himself and debate a subject as well as anyone.  I'm only looking at what we have all seen from our present management. 

    The facts are, the last great crop of youngsters that came from the farm wasn't by luck.  They were well thought out picks/moves that addressed our most important needs from year to year and made "for the most part" by people no longer with the organization. 

    We need to find/take that type of approach again, otherwise 2007 will extend on to 2015/16 and behond.

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

    In response to jasko2248's comment:

     

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    This thread is a little silly. Is the point to question the "plan" because no one is penciled in for LF in 2015? Do people really think it works that way?

     

    The future will sort itself out and one of the goals this offseason was to hold on to as much potential as possible. .

     

     



    notin, my point is we have had two plans under present management since our last good crop of youngsters came up.

     

    #1 Lets bridge our way and see what happens

    #2 Lets spend like the Yankees on big name talent to see if we can buy a championship. 

    There are many ways of building the farm and we don't seem to have what others did in the past to make that happen.  Yes it could and should work that way, you don't just draft kids and hope for the best.  You try to address each position on a yearly basis and at the moment we lack the correct talent in many, while having too many prospects in others.

     

     



    Baseball teams almost always take the best available "talent."  Drafting the "best available 1st baseman" in the first round because the organization "lacks depth" at that position is crazy.  What if the best 1st baseman is a consensus 3rd round pick, do you still take him in the first round?  I have no idea how this team will look THIS SEPTEMBER, and as Notin mentioned, why would you ever try to figure out what this team will look like in 2016? It's literally impossible.  The Sox seem to have as much talent in their farm system as they've ever had.  You can't ask for much more than that.

     




     

    Jasko, what great talent do we have on the farm?  I know you don't want to compare it with the last crop.  Other than two or three hopefuls at SP?  Lav, Bogy, Bradley and Brentz maybe?  How long has it been since a few kids really helped our lineup on a regular basis?      

    All I'm saying is there are trades/ways to build up weak areas without drafting the perfect player for our club.  Grabbing the best possible talent is a given, that doesn't necessarily get you anywhere if that talent ends up playing like positions.  In rare cases it may work out to move a player like we did with Youk to IB.  Do we really need to bridge these same weak areas year after year with FA's? 

    I'm sure our FO knows best, but do feel they can do a better job addressing our issues.  Again I respectively ask... How long has it been since a few kids really helped our lineup on a regular basis?  I would also love to see draft and trades similar to the NBA allowed at some point.      

     

     

     

     




     

    First of all, you might not realize this but by being ranked number 8, Xander Bogaerts has become the higest ranked position player by Baseball America in the history of the Boston Red Sox.  Unless, of course, you want to count the 2 weeks the Sox had BA #5 Andy Marte back in 2005.

     

    Second, you do not seem to understand their draft strategy.  They draft "up the middle players" as early and often as possible.  Very, very common you see the Sox taking C, 2B, SS and CF in the early rounds.  The plus to this is not only stronger players up the middle, but it is easier to move them to the other positins.  It is easier to turn a CF into a RF or a SS into a 3B than the other way around.  This increases the likelihood of draftees making the majors.  The downside is that the Sox miss out on most of the power hitting corner players.  But seeing as to how they have almst always had late picks, the elite ones never made it to them anyway.  They have been using this stragey since 2003, and the only non-pitchers  who were not "up the middle" players taken in the first 3 rounds in that entire timeframe are Bryce Brentz and Hunter Morris.  (Vitek was a 2B in college, but also played 3B.  He is an arguable inclusion.)

     

    As a result, the Sox have very good depth in the "up the middle" positions up and down the minors, despite your belief that 2B depth ends with Brock Holt.  (Fangraphs had Mookie Betts in their  top 15 list for Sox prospects this year, by the way.)

     

    This might actually be the strongest farm system the Sox have had in a long time.  I could be wrong, but I do not think the Sox have ever had 4 of the top 50 in BA's rankings, which only go back to 1990, but that is far enough to make the point...

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    This might actually be the strongest farm system the Sox have had in a long time.  I could be wrong, but I do not think the Sox have ever had 4 of the top 50 in BA's rankings, which only go back to 1990, but that is far enough to make the point...

    I've been a Sox fan since the early 70's, and I never recall our farm being this good or deep.

    Maybe the 72-74 farm was pretty close in top of farm strength: Rice, Lynn, Evans, Burleson, Cooper & Hobson to name the big ones.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    I have to say it's really enjoyable to see posters finally challenging Zac's negative comments, instead of laughing at his really not funny at all jabs here.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from donrd4. Show donrd4's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

    The future and who we currently have on the farm in various positions.  Having money for FA's is great when and if you can find the right fit.  How about also trading some of the guys who play all the same positions to fill a few positions we may really need long term?

    IB, Nap, Carp, Overbay, Gomez - Really?

    2B, Pede, Ciraico and nobody on the farm but Brock Holt?

    3B, Middy, Cecchini, Bogy? Ciriaco etc.

    SS, Drew, Ciriaco, Iggy, Marrero, Holt, Vinicio, Bogy? etc.

    C, Salty, Ross, Lav, Swihart, Nap if he can? etc.

    DH, Papi, Nap, Gomez, Lav?

    Pitching,  Besides Clay, Lester, Dempster and Lackey 9 of our top 20 prospects are pitchers in Barnes, De La Rosa, Renaudo, Webster, Wilson, Workman, Britton, Johnson, Owens and Webster take up.  Barnes and De La Rosa are my best bets to make it soon and possibly have more success than guys like Doub, Miller, Morales, Taz etc. who we also have as trade bait.

    OF, Gomes, Carp, Victorino, Sweeney, Ells, Nava, Kalish, Bradley, Brentz, De La Cruz, Jacobs and many others.  Besides "possibly" Bradley in CF who might have the best chance to land in L or RF?



    None !!! Don't lose sleep over watching baseball. What happens ,happens......Your Goverment should be your concern..Why worry over Million dollar players who could care less if you have a job or the struggles you might have to overcome. Just enjoy the game ,you have enough on your plate to worry about.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    This might actually be the strongest farm system the Sox have had in a long time.  I could be wrong, but I do not think the Sox have ever had 4 of the top 50 in BA's rankings, which only go back to 1990, but that is far enough to make the point...

    I've been a Sox fan since the early 70's, and I never recall our farm being this good or deep.

    Maybe the 72-74 farm was pretty close in top of farm strength: Rice, Lynn, Evans, Burleson, Cooper & Hobson to name the big ones.

     



    moon,

     

    I think our farm has some promising young talent just not at many positions.  I also doubt some of our experts ability to evaluate/mentor what they considered our top prospects since our last crop.  Kids like  Hansen, Di Nardo, Anderson, Esposito, Kelly, Iggy, Kalish, Reddick, Rizzo, Masterson, Weiland, Bowden, Navarro and a few others.  I could be wrong but only Clay, Ells, Doub and possibly Middy have made any kind of impact since 2007.

    During this time we have also signed a ton of rehabbed pitchers, FA's and other bridge players because of our lack of depth.  Our "lets spend" on everyone method certainly didn't help our cause but we came out of that and right back into the bridge idea.

    I just expected a few smarter "less expensive" moves this off season because none of them have changed our club long term.  Here are a few moves at the very least I would have made differently using the same "save our prospects" mindset ....

    #1 Signing Ross and Victorino were good moves, our staff ERA and OF has been a mess.

    #2 Nap at three years?  No, I would have let Gomez have the 1B position with possibly Overbay as backup but Nap at 1 year is a deal.

    #3 Linares in Gomes out against righties - 10mil savings

    #4 Offer Salty and Doubront to the Angels for CJ Cron, it would allow Lav to learn behind Ross at the big league level.  Doub is under our control for a good stretch and it may be a lot to give up but it gives us a future cleanup hitter/1B/DH- 5mil savings

    #5 Give Taz a shot at Doubronts spot

    #6 Offer Brandon McCarthy a three year 22mil contract instead of signing Dempster - 4.5mil savings and a much younger starter.

    #7 Give Ciriaco the starting SS position with Iggy as back up for a year to see what we really have.  Bogy isn't far off if we truly intend to play him at SS - 9.5mil savings

     

    Total Savings 29mil, a younger "three year" starter and 1B for the future

     

     

     

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    2.  Nap was not signed for 3 years.  He was signed for 1.  Gomez is awful, and has probably alrady maxed himelf out talentwise.  His marginal numbers last year were HEAVILY dependant on luck, and this would deintely even itself out over time.

     

    3.  Linares is not better than Gomes (as a hitter).  No ceiling.  He is already 28 and takes too long to adjust to lower level minor league pitching.   He is not exactly stepping in and doing anything.  you might save $10mill, but you easily cost this team over 2 wins, which is the value of $10mill.  Isd the goal a better team or a better financial picture?  And are you related in any way to Jeff Loria?

     

    4.  Doubtful Anaheim takes a $4.5mill catcher (when they do not need one) for their top hitting prospect.  Doubront has some trade value, but I would argue (and win) that the $10mill you spent to replace him will allow for a worse team, given where you sauved the money.  I will take Doubront and the guys you replaced Linares and Gomez with over Gomez and Linares and who you replce Doubront with.

     

    5.  Taz is a good possibiliy but he will need som stretching.  He has not started since prior to TJ surgery and pluging him in hoping for 150 IP is recipe for disaster physically.   Getting this guy into the bullpen, however, does nothing but make that aspect of the team stronger.  (I do hope he does some stretching in Pawtucket).

     

    6.  McCarthy was a possibility but reamins a physical question mark over the course of his, well, life.  I would have signed him over Dempster, though. 

     

    7.  While I eould have gone with Iggy. I knlow you will never believe this, BUT CIRIACO IS NOT THAT GOOD.  He is not some sort of "late bloomer" who excels against higher competition.  Those are unsupported cop out answers than ignore a lifetime worth of facts.  He is an imaptient free swinger who got by on ludicrous BABIP and his ability to hit fastballs.  Plug him into a regular starting role, and his imaptience and inability to hit or lay off of sliders low and away will shine through. and when he is not hitting he has no offensive game to speak of.  He needs to hit .285 just to hope to have an OBP.  As much as Iglesias diappointed at the plate, he still has more patience and discipline than Ciriaco, and a better minor league track record to boot.  Hey, maybe Iglesias is one of those guys who "excels against better competition."  I say he deserves the shot, especially with some of his ridiculous defensive skills.

     

    The really weird part about your "plan" is that you started this whole thread about minor league depth, and this plan does bvery little to address it, unless you think the only missing piece is CJ Cron.    The rest of it really looks like nothing more than an attempt to rebuild the MLB team using AAAA talent, a formula that has not only never worked, but actually puts together a lineup as bad as the one Miami will be fielding this year.  Do not be fooled by short term success for players with a long, long, long  history of not being successful, although it seems I am a little late with that advice.

     

    The only reaminaing question is why you feel you understand th abilities of Gomez, Linares and Ciriaco better than the Sox.  They not only know each player personally (which I am guess you do not), but emply a staff of scouts to evaluate them and others, and see them play far, far more often than you could ever hope to.   They watch these guys in Winter Ball, they watch them in practices and at workouts.  They see every minor league game.  Honestly, how many games have you seen Linares play in his life?  How many times did you see Gomez or Ciriaco play before they got called up?  Did you even hear of either of Gomez and Ciriaco befroe 2012?  (I never heard of Gomez before 2012.)  So why do you think YOU are the guy who knws these players better? 

     

    Or are you making snap judgements on small sample sizes?  (Which, by the way, would not be breaking new ground.)

     

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    2.  Nap was not signed for 3 years.  He was signed for 1.  Gomez is awful, and has probably alrady maxed himelf out talentwise.  His marginal numbers last year were HEAVILY dependant on luck, and this would deintely even itself out over time.  Read my post, I said one year was a deal

     

    3.  Linares is not better than Gomes (as a hitter).  No ceiling.  He is already 28 and takes too long to adjust to lower level minor league pitching.   He is not exactly stepping in and doing anything.  you might save $10mill, but you easily cost this team over 2 wins, which is the value of $10mill.  Isd the goal a better team or a better financial picture?  And are you related in any way to Jeff Loria?  How does anyone know Linares isn't better and cheaper than Gomes against righties if the guy has never been given a chance?  This is supposidly more bridge time correct?  No need to spend 10mil on another one dimensional, mediocre OF.

     

    4.  Doubtful Anaheim takes a $4.5mill catcher (when they do not need one) for their top hitting prospect.  Doubront has some trade value, but I would argue (and win) that the $10mill you spent to replace him will allow for a worse team, given where you sauved the money.  I will take Doubront and the guys you replaced Linares and Gomez with over Gomez and Linares and who you replce Doubront with.  Of course, again you don't know, I did say offer

     

    5.  Taz is a good possibiliy but he will need som stretching.  He has not started since prior to TJ surgery and pluging him in hoping for 150 IP is recipe for disaster physically.   Getting this guy into the bullpen, however, does nothing but make that aspect of the team stronger.  (I do hope he does some stretching in Pawtucket).  Agreed but again, if Doub was traded I would give him a shot

     

    6.  McCarthy was a possibility but reamins a physical question mark over the course of his, well, life.  I would have signed him over Dempster, though.  How the heck does another old man like Dempster help our future?  In the clubhouse maybe?  Get the guys a free puppy!

     

    7.  While I eould have gone with Iggy. I knlow you will never believe this, BUT CIRIACO IS NOT THAT GOOD.  He is not some sort of "late bloomer" who excels against higher competition.  Those are unsupported cop out answers than ignore a lifetime worth of facts.  He is an imaptient free swinger who got by on ludicrous BABIP and his ability to hit fastballs.  Plug him into a regular starting role, and his imaptience and inability to hit or lay off of sliders low and away will shine through. and when he is not hitting he has no offensive game to speak of.  He needs to hit .285 just to hope to have an OBP.  As much as Iglesias diappointed at the plate, he still has more patience and discipline than Ciriaco, and a better minor league track record to boot.  Hey, maybe Iglesias is one of those guys who "excels against better competition."  I say he deserves the shot, especially with some of his ridiculous defensive skills.  If you feel Iggy deserves a shot over Ciriaco?  Enough said!

     

    The really weird part about your "plan" is that you started this whole thread about minor league depth, and this plan does bvery little to address it, unless you think the only missing piece is CJ Cron.    The rest of it really looks like nothing more than an attempt to rebuild the MLB team using AAAA talent, a formula that has not only never worked, but actually puts together a lineup as bad as the one Miami will be fielding this year.  Do not be fooled by short term success for players with a long, long, long  history of not being successful, although it seems I am a little late with that advice.  I don't feel the only missing piece is CJ Cron but to land a possible 1B, younger pitcher and save 29mil it was worth the risk considering the money we waisted this off season.  That money could have gone towards a FA next season to fill another void.

     

    The only reaminaing question is why you feel you understand th abilities of Gomez, Linares and Ciriaco better than the Sox.  They not only know each player personally (which I am guess you do not), but emply a staff of scouts to evaluate them and others, and see them play far, far more often than you could ever hope to.   They watch these guys in Winter Ball, they watch them in practices and at workouts.  They see every minor league game.  Honestly, how many games have you seen Linares play in his life?  How many times did you see Gomez or Ciriaco play before they got called up?  Did you even hear of either of Gomez and Ciriaco befroe 2012?  (I never heard of Gomez before 2012.)  So why do you think YOU are the guy who knws these players better?  First off the Sox now have a higher regard for Ciriaco which you will see again this season as he backs up Drew.  Secondly, if we can keep a useless bat like DMac as long as we did, or give Kalish and Nava an opportunity, Linares deserves his chance to prove us right or wrong.  Lastly, Nap at 1B is a serious defensive liability for three years 30plus mil and AGAIN read the post.  I said he was a good deal for the one year we gave him.

     

    Or are you making snap judgements on small sample sizes?  (Which, by the way, would not be breaking new ground.)  Nope just giving my honest opinion!

     

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to selenium-'s comment:

    Craze likes to use that familiar phrase heard around here quite often; " I could be wrong but ----". According to Notin's excellent response; Craze was wrong on most everything.



    Go with that thought its brilliant :)

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    Jonny Gomes has the third highest OPS for alll outfielders in MLB vs LHP with at lest 500 PA over the last 3 years.  THAT is how we know he will outhit Linares.  Got any evidence Linares would be among the top 3 in MLB at anything?

     

    YOU are the one who keeps bringing up the 3 years for Napoli.  Who cares how anyone feels about a non-existant deal?

     

    I did say I would have taken McCarthy over Demsper, butthis does not change the fact thatMcCarthy has along history of injury.

     

    Still waiting for why you think you know the abilities of Ciriaco, Gomez, and Linares better than the Sox. I can admit they clearly like Gomez more than I do as I would have released him months ago. The Sox and I appear toagree on Ciriaco (utility infielder at best) and not so much on Linares, who I think is pprobably a waste of AAA roster space and unlikely to ever see more than very limited MLB action.

     

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    Jonny Gomes has the third highest OPS for alll outfielders in MLB vs LHP with at lest 500 PA over the last 3 years.  THAT is how we know he will outhit Linares.  Got any evidence Linares would be among the top 3 in MLB at anything?

     

    YOU are the one who keeps bringing up the 3 years for Napoli.  Who cares how anyone feels about a non-existant deal?

     

    I did say I would have taken McCarthy over Demsper, butthis does not change the fact thatMcCarthy has along history of injury.

     

    Still waiting for why you think you know the abilities of Ciriaco, Gomez, and Linares better than the Sox. I can admit they clearly like Gomez more than I do as I would have released him months ago. The Sox and I appear toagree on Ciriaco (utility infielder at best) and not so much on Linares, who I think is pprobably a waste of AAA roster space and unlikely to ever see more than very limited MLB action.

     

     

     



    Again notin, I never claimed, or do I think I know as much as the FO.  What I do know is we have only had a few kids come out of the farm and stick since 2007.  Gomez would be a risk but "for a one year trial" I would have been willing to risk it other than sign Napoli for 3 years.  I'm happy with the one year contract with Nap but still feel we should pursue a trade for a young 1B.  Why you would release Gomez I have no idea, he would probably reach base and play as goog or better 1B Nap unless we platooned Mike.

    Ciriaco? which ever way you want to look at it will probably be backup SS nod as he should unless Iggy has a great ST.  Iggy, is lucky to be in the organization in two years if his bat doesn't improve, especially if Bogy can play the position.  

    As for Linares I would have given him a shot before now, he has hit righties very well at the lower level and yes I have seen him play at least a half dozen times anyway which I agree isn't a large sample.  How would that transform in the majors?  Who knows but he would be another hungry youngster looking to prove everyone wrong like Nava did for a stretch last season.  

    Finally, outside of "possibly" clubhouse chemistry we are no more talented than last season.  Do we have more depth?  Possibly but only if we can stay healthy because our overall talent just isn't tas good offensively or defensively.  In short, we are no better off for the future except for the salary dumped because nothing was done to help solidify our long term needs.  You can debate it all you like but until a couple of our youngsters break the lineup and we fill other long term voids we are what we are.

    In the mix, the very least we could have hoped for this season to sell tickets.
     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    While the Sox have only had a few kids stick since 2007, they are still easily within the league norms.  The firgure to start 3 kids from the farm this year in their starting lineup.  Most teams will start taht many or fewer.  Tampa is the team with the  farm eveyone is jealous of, ut their starting lineup features only 2 homegrwn players (Longoria, Jennings).  If Jemile Weeks does not start at 2B, and he is not likely to, Oakland will not have any starting position players from the farm.  Both do have some homegrown arms on their staff.

     

    Really the only teams with any homegrown talent on the farm are KC, Minn, and Anaheim.  Two are rebuilding, and the 6 players in the roster of both AL Central teams are unlikely to stick.  anaheim has 5, probably to cover for their massive recent spending sprees.

     

    I thnk fans get a little too into te farm for the wrong reasns.  Fans like to envision the all-22 year old MLB roster that consittutes a dynasty.   The farm is not as was never meant to supply the entire lineup.    The farm is fortrading.  The farm is for stopgaps.  The farm is for low cost players.  But expecting a flow of talent is not wise, although t occasionally happens.  Someday go look up an old Baseball America Top 100 list.  For any year you look at, you will find about 30 names who maxed out as AAAA players.  And 30 more who ended up as relievers and utility infielders and back up outfielders.  And 30 ore who actually were starters.  And the last 10 who were actually all stars.

     

    The Sox farm has put out players in "league average" pace over the last few years.  The pitching is a little down, but looking up even short term.  There is no reason to worry about it now.

     

    And there is no reason to ever put Gomez, Ciriaco or Linares in an MLB starting lineup as anything but an offday sub for a better player.  (Although the low cost and Cuban heritage of Linares might have some appeal in Miami)...

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    While the Sox have only had a few kids stick since 2007, they are still easily within the league norms.  The firgure to start 3 kids from the farm this year in their starting lineup.  Most teams will start taht many or fewer.  Tampa is the team with the  farm eveyone is jealous of, ut their starting lineup features only 2 homegrwn players (Longoria, Jennings).  If Jemile Weeks does not start at 2B, and he is not likely to, Oakland will not have any starting position players from the farm.  Both do have some homegrown arms on their staff.

     

    Really the only teams with any homegrown talent on the farm are KC, Minn, and Anaheim.  Two are rebuilding, and the 6 players in the roster of both AL Central teams are unlikely to stick.  anaheim has 5, probably to cover for their massive recent spending sprees.

     

    I thnk fans get a little too into te farm for the wrong reasns.  Fans like to envision the all-22 year old MLB roster that consittutes a dynasty.   The farm is not as was never meant to supply the entire lineup.    The farm is fortrading.  The farm is for stopgaps.  The farm is for low cost players.  But expecting a flow of talent is not wise, although t occasionally happens.  Someday go look up an old Baseball America Top 100 list.  For any year you look at, you will find about 30 names who maxed out as AAAA players.  And 30 more who ended up as relievers and utility infielders and back up outfielders.  And 30 ore who actually were starters.  And the last 10 who were actually all stars.

     

    The Sox farm has put out players in "league average" pace over the last few years.  The pitching is a little down, but looking up even short term.  There is no reason to worry about it now.

     

    And there is no reason to ever put Gomez, Ciriaco or Linares in an MLB starting lineup as anything but an offday sub for a better player.  (Although the low cost and Cuban heritage of Linares might have some appeal in Miami)...

     



    notin,

    I'm a huge fan of farms kids throughout the league.  In my current position I feel fortunate to get the opportunity to see a lot of these kids from year to year.  Kids are ready when they are mature enough to handle the pressure, for some this comes more quickly and naturally so whether they be 22 or 26 when this happens is fine with me.  I just don't see the Sox deep in certain areas and haven't heard a whisper of them addressing them which "again" I feel fortunate to be around at times.


    We need to trade some youngsters and vets for better suited prospects in my opinion to avoid these long lapses from the PS.  There is no need for this with the resources Mr. Henry has given our managemt team, this is what we did best years ago and why we finally won a couple championships.  It wasn't present management so much as past that began to build this success but Theo and company did have a hand in it.

    I'm glad Henry still shows the desire to spend from year to year.  Again, I'm not an expert but for me "one can agree or disagree" and its just my opinion but I see more opportunities to help this club. 

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    Tampa is the team with the  farm eveyone is jealous of, ut their starting lineup features only 2 homegrwn players (Longoria, Jennings). 

    While true TB has made multiple trades in what I think the way craze is envisioning that brought top propsects to their farm and who are now part of the big club or may be soon:

    Wil Myers, Jake Odorizzi, Mike Montgomery and Patrick Leoinard for Shields, W Davis & E Johnson.

    Ben Zobrist was obtained as a prospect for Aubrey Huff.

    Sean Rodrigues had less than 250 PAs when acquired from LA for Kazmir.

    Brandon Gomes was a prospect and Cesar Ramos had just 23 IP with the Padres before being traded for Jason Bartlett (TB also got nonprospect Adam Russell).

    Matt Joyce had ony 277 ML PAs when acquired from Detroit for Edwin Jackson.

    Robinson Chirinos was a prospect and Sam Fuld was 29 when the Rays got him via trade with the Cubs (for Garza) , but had just 131 PAs in MLB.

    Josh Lueke had just over 32 IP with the Mariners before being dealt for John Jaso.

     

    Plus, Raysprospects lists many current prospects as being acquired by trade, not to mention all the players drafted from comp picks obtained by departing FAs.

    1) Chis Archer (from Cubs)

    2) Hak-Ju Lee (Cubs)

    20) Brandon Guyer (Cubs)

    2011's list:

    4) Alex Torres (LAA)

     

    TB relies on its farm to a much greater amount than most teams, but many are not true "homegrown players".

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Tampa is the team with the  farm eveyone is jealous of, ut their starting lineup features only 2 homegrwn players (Longoria, Jennings). 

    While true TB has made multiple trades in what I think the way craze is envisioning that brought top propsects to their farm and who are now part of the big club or may be soon:

    Wil Myers, Jake Odorizzi, Mike Montgomery and Patrick Leoinard for Shields, W Davis & E Johnson.

    Ben Zobrist was obtained as a prospect for Aubrey Huff.

    Sean Rodrigues had less than 250 PAs when acquired from LA for Kazmir.

    Brandon Gomes was a prospect and Cesar Ramos had just 23 IP with the Padres before being traded for Jason Bartlett (TB also got nonprospect Adam Russell).

    Matt Joyce had ony 277 ML PAs when acquired from Detroit for Edwin Jackson.

    Robinson Chirinos was a prospect and Sam Fuld was 29 when the Rays got him via trade with the Cubs (for Garza) , but had just 131 PAs in MLB.

    Josh Lueke had just over 32 IP with the Mariners before being dealt for John Jaso.

     

    Plus, Raysprospects lists many current prospects as being acquired by trade, not to mention all the players drafted from comp picks obtained by departing FAs.

    1) Chis Archer (from Cubs)

    2) Hak-Ju Lee (Cubs)

    20) Brandon Guyer (Cubs)

    2011's list:

    4) Alex Torres (LAA)

     

    TB relies on its farm to a much greater amount than most teams, but many are not true "homegrown players".

     



    I think Tampa was a perfect example of what I'm taking about moon.  Granted they had a lot higher draft picks than us for a few years but they know what it takes to keep their team competitive without spending a ton on bridge/FA type players.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Tampa is the team with the  farm eveyone is jealous of, ut their starting lineup features only 2 homegrwn players (Longoria, Jennings). 

    While true TB has made multiple trades in what I think the way craze is envisioning that brought top propsects to their farm and who are now part of the big club or may be soon:

    Wil Myers, Jake Odorizzi, Mike Montgomery and Patrick Leoinard for Shields, W Davis & E Johnson.

    Ben Zobrist was obtained as a prospect for Aubrey Huff.

    Sean Rodrigues had less than 250 PAs when acquired from LA for Kazmir.

    Brandon Gomes was a prospect and Cesar Ramos had just 23 IP with the Padres before being traded for Jason Bartlett (TB also got nonprospect Adam Russell).

    Matt Joyce had ony 277 ML PAs when acquired from Detroit for Edwin Jackson.

    Robinson Chirinos was a prospect and Sam Fuld was 29 when the Rays got him via trade with the Cubs (for Garza) , but had just 131 PAs in MLB.

    Josh Lueke had just over 32 IP with the Mariners before being dealt for John Jaso.

     

    Plus, Raysprospects lists many current prospects as being acquired by trade, not to mention all the players drafted from comp picks obtained by departing FAs.

    1) Chis Archer (from Cubs)

    2) Hak-Ju Lee (Cubs)

    20) Brandon Guyer (Cubs)

    2011's list:

    4) Alex Torres (LAA)

     

    TB relies on its farm to a much greater amount than most teams, but many are not true "homegrown players".

     

     



    I think Tampa was a perfect example of what I'm taking about moon.  Granted they had a lot higher draft picks than us for a few years but they know what it takes to keep their team competitive without spending a ton on bridge/FA type players.

     



    TB mastered the use of departing FAs turned into draft picks, especially marginal relief pitchers. The deal to get Brad Hawpe was a perfect example of finding a way to improve their farm via the draft.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    It's earlier than early, but we gotta like what we've seen so far from some of our SP'ers.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    It's earlier than early, but we gotta like what we've seen so far from some of our SP'ers.




    The young guns look really really good. That's gotta improve your outlook on 2014 and beyond :p

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxpride34. Show redsoxpride34's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    its pretty obvious where the major concerns are with this team. outfield is a big issue. ellsbury if he can stay healthy is legit. outside of ellsbury our outfield is a bunch of question marks. gomes is a platoon player who is only good against lefties and is a liability in the field. victorino has been declining the past 3 years noticably and quite honestly I never liked the signing from the beginning and really never understood it. we have jackie bradley jr who quite honestly should be given a shot to make the team out of spring traing given the lack of talent currently manning the outfield. This team really needs a big bat in LF. Justin Upton would have been a perfect fit and I was surprised that the sox didnt take much of a run at him. Maybe they are waiting to go after giancarlo stanton, who knows. I would say hands down the biggest need on this team is a middle of the order bat. trading gonzalez took a huge piece out of the middle of the line up and none of the moves the sox made this offseason filled it. ortiz and napoli are not 3/4 hitters. more like 5 hitters, maybe 6. middlebrooks should be a 3/4 guy this year. but no one else on the team fits that profile. I think the rotation will be fine. we have vets in lester, lackey and dempster (another signing i did not like one bit), semi vet in buchholz, and lots of potential in de la rosa, webster and barnes. doubront is good but i think he will eventually become trade bait or a long reliever. Plus the next 2 free agency classes are filled with pitching. (which makes the dempster signing look even worse)

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    It's earlier than early, but we gotta like what we've seen so far from some of our SP'ers.

    I agree moon, this team is pretty good if we can stay healthy and get a joint effort from the vets and young pitchers.  I also think our club has good chemistry and just enough offense if we utilize our platoon players correctly.

    Should be a close division!

     

     

     




    The young guns look really really good. That's gotta improve your outlook on 2014 and beyond :p

     




     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to redsoxpride34's comment:

    its pretty obvious where the major concerns are with this team. outfield is a big issue. ellsbury if he can stay healthy is legit. outside of ellsbury our outfield is a bunch of question marks. gomes is a platoon player who is only good against lefties and is a liability in the field. victorino has been declining the past 3 years noticably and quite honestly I never liked the signing from the beginning and really never understood it. we have jackie bradley jr who quite honestly should be given a shot to make the team out of spring traing given the lack of talent currently manning the outfield. This team really needs a big bat in LF. Justin Upton would have been a perfect fit and I was surprised that the sox didnt take much of a run at him. Maybe they are waiting to go after giancarlo stanton, who knows. I would say hands down the biggest need on this team is a middle of the order bat. trading gonzalez took a huge piece out of the middle of the line up and none of the moves the sox made this offseason filled it. ortiz and napoli are not 3/4 hitters. more like 5 hitters, maybe 6. middlebrooks should be a 3/4 guy this year. but no one else on the team fits that profile. I think the rotation will be fine. we have vets in lester, lackey and dempster (another signing i did not like one bit), semi vet in buchholz, and lots of potential in de la rosa, webster and barnes. doubront is good but i think he will eventually become trade bait or a long reliever. Plus the next 2 free agency classes are filled with pitching. (which makes the dempster signing look even worse)



    Actually, 2011 was Victorino's best year by far.  So right really his decline is only 1 year...

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ice-Cream. Show Ice-Cream's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

     

    The starting rotation needs to pick it up.  In 2012, Red Sox starters ranked 27th in the majors with a 5.19 ERA.  Who was the only starter with an ERA below 4.50?  That would be Franklin Morales.  

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Tampa is the team with the  farm eveyone is jealous of, ut their starting lineup features only 2 homegrwn players (Longoria, Jennings). 

    While true TB has made multiple trades in what I think the way craze is envisioning that brought top propsects to their farm and who are now part of the big club or may be soon:

    Wil Myers, Jake Odorizzi, Mike Montgomery and Patrick Leoinard for Shields, W Davis & E Johnson.

    Ben Zobrist was obtained as a prospect for Aubrey Huff.

    Sean Rodrigues had less than 250 PAs when acquired from LA for Kazmir.

    Brandon Gomes was a prospect and Cesar Ramos had just 23 IP with the Padres before being traded for Jason Bartlett (TB also got nonprospect Adam Russell).

    Matt Joyce had ony 277 ML PAs when acquired from Detroit for Edwin Jackson.

    Robinson Chirinos was a prospect and Sam Fuld was 29 when the Rays got him via trade with the Cubs (for Garza) , but had just 131 PAs in MLB.

    Josh Lueke had just over 32 IP with the Mariners before being dealt for John Jaso.

     

    Plus, Raysprospects lists many current prospects as being acquired by trade, not to mention all the players drafted from comp picks obtained by departing FAs.

    1) Chis Archer (from Cubs)

    2) Hak-Ju Lee (Cubs)

    20) Brandon Guyer (Cubs)

    2011's list:

    4) Alex Torres (LAA)

     

    TB relies on its farm to a much greater amount than most teams, but many are not true "homegrown players".

     

     



    I think Tampa was a perfect example of what I'm taking about moon.  Granted they had a lot higher draft picks than us for a few years but they know what it takes to keep their team competitive without spending a ton on bridge/FA type players.

     

     



    TB mastered the use of departing FAs turned into draft picks, especially marginal relief pitchers. The deal to get Brad Hawpe was a perfect example of finding a way to improve their farm via the draft.

     



    Brad Hawpe's compensation pales to how eell Boston has done in this regard.  For example,  trading Chris Carter for Billy Wagner and using his picks on Kolbrin Vitek and Ranaudo. Or using comp picks on Swihart, Bradley and Brentz...

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    It's earlier than early, but we gotta like what we've seen so far from some of our SP'ers.

     




    The young guns look really really good. That's gotta improve your outlook on 2014 and beyond :p

     



    My outlook on 2014 and beyond has always been good, and small sample sizes don't usually sway me too much, but I am encouraged. 

    It's 2013 that I have disagreements with some of you guys about, and the fact that I wished we had done more to improve our 2015 and beyond outlook this winter.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    Brad Hawpe's compensation pales to how eell Boston has done in this regard.  For example,  trading Chris Carter for Billy Wagner and using his picks on Kolbrin Vitek and Ranaudo. Or using comp picks on Swihart, Bradley and Brentz...

    I agree. The Wagner deal was brilliant.

    Time will tell how well TB does with all their comp picks, but they are already seeing some results from their trades of ML players for prospects and young players with little ML experience. The list of players above is pretty formidable.

    The trades of Garza, Kazmir and Bartlett brought a lot in return, and those players have not exactly lit the worl on fire after they left. There's also the Jesse Chavez deal for Soriano who gave them a great season and then netted them comp picks Mikie Mahtook (#31) and Brandon Martin (#38).

    What amazes me most is how many comp picks they got for the loss of mostly marginal relief pitchers...

    2011

    24 (Guerrieri) & 41 (Goeddel) for Crawford

    31 (Mahtook) & 38 (Martin) for Soriano

    42 (Ames) & 75 (Goetzman) for Balfour

    52 (Snell) for Hawpe

    56 (K Carter) for Benoit

    59 (G Garvin) for Choate

    60 (Harris) for Qualls

    2010:

    31 (J O'Conner) for L Washington

    42 (D Vettleson) for G Zaun

     

    Raysprospects.com lists Guerrieri as their #2, Vettleson as their #7, Mahtook as #8, Goeddel #10, B Martin #18, Snell #19, Ames #25, Goetzman #26, and Harris #28.

    That's 9 of their top 30 prospects via comp picks.

    Via the trade with the Cubs:

    1) Archer

    3) Lee

    20) Guyer

     

     

     

     
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