What is our real concern?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    Jonny Gomes has the third highest OPS for alll outfielders in MLB vs LHP with at lest 500 PA over the last 3 years.  THAT is how we know he will outhit Linares.  Got any evidence Linares would be among the top 3 in MLB at anything?

     

    YOU are the one who keeps bringing up the 3 years for Napoli.  Who cares how anyone feels about a non-existant deal?

     

    I did say I would have taken McCarthy over Demsper, butthis does not change the fact thatMcCarthy has along history of injury.

     

    Still waiting for why you think you know the abilities of Ciriaco, Gomez, and Linares better than the Sox. I can admit they clearly like Gomez more than I do as I would have released him months ago. The Sox and I appear toagree on Ciriaco (utility infielder at best) and not so much on Linares, who I think is pprobably a waste of AAA roster space and unlikely to ever see more than very limited MLB action.

     

     

     



    Again notin, I never claimed, or do I think I know as much as the FO.  What I do know is we have only had a few kids come out of the farm and stick since 2007.  Gomez would be a risk but "for a one year trial" I would have been willing to risk it other than sign Napoli for 3 years.  I'm happy with the one year contract with Nap but still feel we should pursue a trade for a young 1B.  Why you would release Gomez I have no idea, he would probably reach base and play as goog or better 1B Nap unless we platooned Mike.

    Ciriaco? which ever way you want to look at it will probably be backup SS nod as he should unless Iggy has a great ST.  Iggy, is lucky to be in the organization in two years if his bat doesn't improve, especially if Bogy can play the position.  

    As for Linares I would have given him a shot before now, he has hit righties very well at the lower level and yes I have seen him play at least a half dozen times anyway which I agree isn't a large sample.  How would that transform in the majors?  Who knows but he would be another hungry youngster looking to prove everyone wrong like Nava did for a stretch last season.  

    Finally, outside of "possibly" clubhouse chemistry we are no more talented than last season.  Do we have more depth?  Possibly but only if we can stay healthy because our overall talent just isn't tas good offensively or defensively.  In short, we are no better off for the future except for the salary dumped because nothing was done to help solidify our long term needs.  You can debate it all you like but until a couple of our youngsters break the lineup and we fill other long term voids we are what we are.

    In the mix, the very least we could have hoped for this season to sell tickets.
     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    While the Sox have only had a few kids stick since 2007, they are still easily within the league norms.  The firgure to start 3 kids from the farm this year in their starting lineup.  Most teams will start taht many or fewer.  Tampa is the team with the  farm eveyone is jealous of, ut their starting lineup features only 2 homegrwn players (Longoria, Jennings).  If Jemile Weeks does not start at 2B, and he is not likely to, Oakland will not have any starting position players from the farm.  Both do have some homegrown arms on their staff.

     

    Really the only teams with any homegrown talent on the farm are KC, Minn, and Anaheim.  Two are rebuilding, and the 6 players in the roster of both AL Central teams are unlikely to stick.  anaheim has 5, probably to cover for their massive recent spending sprees.

     

    I thnk fans get a little too into te farm for the wrong reasns.  Fans like to envision the all-22 year old MLB roster that consittutes a dynasty.   The farm is not as was never meant to supply the entire lineup.    The farm is fortrading.  The farm is for stopgaps.  The farm is for low cost players.  But expecting a flow of talent is not wise, although t occasionally happens.  Someday go look up an old Baseball America Top 100 list.  For any year you look at, you will find about 30 names who maxed out as AAAA players.  And 30 more who ended up as relievers and utility infielders and back up outfielders.  And 30 ore who actually were starters.  And the last 10 who were actually all stars.

     

    The Sox farm has put out players in "league average" pace over the last few years.  The pitching is a little down, but looking up even short term.  There is no reason to worry about it now.

     

    And there is no reason to ever put Gomez, Ciriaco or Linares in an MLB starting lineup as anything but an offday sub for a better player.  (Although the low cost and Cuban heritage of Linares might have some appeal in Miami)...

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to notin's comment:

     

    While the Sox have only had a few kids stick since 2007, they are still easily within the league norms.  The firgure to start 3 kids from the farm this year in their starting lineup.  Most teams will start taht many or fewer.  Tampa is the team with the  farm eveyone is jealous of, ut their starting lineup features only 2 homegrwn players (Longoria, Jennings).  If Jemile Weeks does not start at 2B, and he is not likely to, Oakland will not have any starting position players from the farm.  Both do have some homegrown arms on their staff.

     

    Really the only teams with any homegrown talent on the farm are KC, Minn, and Anaheim.  Two are rebuilding, and the 6 players in the roster of both AL Central teams are unlikely to stick.  anaheim has 5, probably to cover for their massive recent spending sprees.

     

    I thnk fans get a little too into te farm for the wrong reasns.  Fans like to envision the all-22 year old MLB roster that consittutes a dynasty.   The farm is not as was never meant to supply the entire lineup.    The farm is fortrading.  The farm is for stopgaps.  The farm is for low cost players.  But expecting a flow of talent is not wise, although t occasionally happens.  Someday go look up an old Baseball America Top 100 list.  For any year you look at, you will find about 30 names who maxed out as AAAA players.  And 30 more who ended up as relievers and utility infielders and back up outfielders.  And 30 ore who actually were starters.  And the last 10 who were actually all stars.

     

    The Sox farm has put out players in "league average" pace over the last few years.  The pitching is a little down, but looking up even short term.  There is no reason to worry about it now.

     

    And there is no reason to ever put Gomez, Ciriaco or Linares in an MLB starting lineup as anything but an offday sub for a better player.  (Although the low cost and Cuban heritage of Linares might have some appeal in Miami)...

     



    notin,

    I'm a huge fan of farms kids throughout the league.  In my current position I feel fortunate to get the opportunity to see a lot of these kids from year to year.  Kids are ready when they are mature enough to handle the pressure, for some this comes more quickly and naturally so whether they be 22 or 26 when this happens is fine with me.  I just don't see the Sox deep in certain areas and haven't heard a whisper of them addressing them which "again" I feel fortunate to be around at times.


    We need to trade some youngsters and vets for better suited prospects in my opinion to avoid these long lapses from the PS.  There is no need for this with the resources Mr. Henry has given our managemt team, this is what we did best years ago and why we finally won a couple championships.  It wasn't present management so much as past that began to build this success but Theo and company did have a hand in it.

    I'm glad Henry still shows the desire to spend from year to year.  Again, I'm not an expert but for me "one can agree or disagree" and its just my opinion but I see more opportunities to help this club. 

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    Tampa is the team with the  farm eveyone is jealous of, ut their starting lineup features only 2 homegrwn players (Longoria, Jennings). 

    While true TB has made multiple trades in what I think the way craze is envisioning that brought top propsects to their farm and who are now part of the big club or may be soon:

    Wil Myers, Jake Odorizzi, Mike Montgomery and Patrick Leoinard for Shields, W Davis & E Johnson.

    Ben Zobrist was obtained as a prospect for Aubrey Huff.

    Sean Rodrigues had less than 250 PAs when acquired from LA for Kazmir.

    Brandon Gomes was a prospect and Cesar Ramos had just 23 IP with the Padres before being traded for Jason Bartlett (TB also got nonprospect Adam Russell).

    Matt Joyce had ony 277 ML PAs when acquired from Detroit for Edwin Jackson.

    Robinson Chirinos was a prospect and Sam Fuld was 29 when the Rays got him via trade with the Cubs (for Garza) , but had just 131 PAs in MLB.

    Josh Lueke had just over 32 IP with the Mariners before being dealt for John Jaso.

     

    Plus, Raysprospects lists many current prospects as being acquired by trade, not to mention all the players drafted from comp picks obtained by departing FAs.

    1) Chis Archer (from Cubs)

    2) Hak-Ju Lee (Cubs)

    20) Brandon Guyer (Cubs)

    2011's list:

    4) Alex Torres (LAA)

     

    TB relies on its farm to a much greater amount than most teams, but many are not true "homegrown players".

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Tampa is the team with the  farm eveyone is jealous of, ut their starting lineup features only 2 homegrwn players (Longoria, Jennings). 

    While true TB has made multiple trades in what I think the way craze is envisioning that brought top propsects to their farm and who are now part of the big club or may be soon:

    Wil Myers, Jake Odorizzi, Mike Montgomery and Patrick Leoinard for Shields, W Davis & E Johnson.

    Ben Zobrist was obtained as a prospect for Aubrey Huff.

    Sean Rodrigues had less than 250 PAs when acquired from LA for Kazmir.

    Brandon Gomes was a prospect and Cesar Ramos had just 23 IP with the Padres before being traded for Jason Bartlett (TB also got nonprospect Adam Russell).

    Matt Joyce had ony 277 ML PAs when acquired from Detroit for Edwin Jackson.

    Robinson Chirinos was a prospect and Sam Fuld was 29 when the Rays got him via trade with the Cubs (for Garza) , but had just 131 PAs in MLB.

    Josh Lueke had just over 32 IP with the Mariners before being dealt for John Jaso.

     

    Plus, Raysprospects lists many current prospects as being acquired by trade, not to mention all the players drafted from comp picks obtained by departing FAs.

    1) Chis Archer (from Cubs)

    2) Hak-Ju Lee (Cubs)

    20) Brandon Guyer (Cubs)

    2011's list:

    4) Alex Torres (LAA)

     

    TB relies on its farm to a much greater amount than most teams, but many are not true "homegrown players".

     



    I think Tampa was a perfect example of what I'm taking about moon.  Granted they had a lot higher draft picks than us for a few years but they know what it takes to keep their team competitive without spending a ton on bridge/FA type players.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Tampa is the team with the  farm eveyone is jealous of, ut their starting lineup features only 2 homegrwn players (Longoria, Jennings). 

    While true TB has made multiple trades in what I think the way craze is envisioning that brought top propsects to their farm and who are now part of the big club or may be soon:

    Wil Myers, Jake Odorizzi, Mike Montgomery and Patrick Leoinard for Shields, W Davis & E Johnson.

    Ben Zobrist was obtained as a prospect for Aubrey Huff.

    Sean Rodrigues had less than 250 PAs when acquired from LA for Kazmir.

    Brandon Gomes was a prospect and Cesar Ramos had just 23 IP with the Padres before being traded for Jason Bartlett (TB also got nonprospect Adam Russell).

    Matt Joyce had ony 277 ML PAs when acquired from Detroit for Edwin Jackson.

    Robinson Chirinos was a prospect and Sam Fuld was 29 when the Rays got him via trade with the Cubs (for Garza) , but had just 131 PAs in MLB.

    Josh Lueke had just over 32 IP with the Mariners before being dealt for John Jaso.

     

    Plus, Raysprospects lists many current prospects as being acquired by trade, not to mention all the players drafted from comp picks obtained by departing FAs.

    1) Chis Archer (from Cubs)

    2) Hak-Ju Lee (Cubs)

    20) Brandon Guyer (Cubs)

    2011's list:

    4) Alex Torres (LAA)

     

    TB relies on its farm to a much greater amount than most teams, but many are not true "homegrown players".

     

     



    I think Tampa was a perfect example of what I'm taking about moon.  Granted they had a lot higher draft picks than us for a few years but they know what it takes to keep their team competitive without spending a ton on bridge/FA type players.

     



    TB mastered the use of departing FAs turned into draft picks, especially marginal relief pitchers. The deal to get Brad Hawpe was a perfect example of finding a way to improve their farm via the draft.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    It's earlier than early, but we gotta like what we've seen so far from some of our SP'ers.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    It's earlier than early, but we gotta like what we've seen so far from some of our SP'ers.




    The young guns look really really good. That's gotta improve your outlook on 2014 and beyond :p

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxpride34. Show redsoxpride34's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    its pretty obvious where the major concerns are with this team. outfield is a big issue. ellsbury if he can stay healthy is legit. outside of ellsbury our outfield is a bunch of question marks. gomes is a platoon player who is only good against lefties and is a liability in the field. victorino has been declining the past 3 years noticably and quite honestly I never liked the signing from the beginning and really never understood it. we have jackie bradley jr who quite honestly should be given a shot to make the team out of spring traing given the lack of talent currently manning the outfield. This team really needs a big bat in LF. Justin Upton would have been a perfect fit and I was surprised that the sox didnt take much of a run at him. Maybe they are waiting to go after giancarlo stanton, who knows. I would say hands down the biggest need on this team is a middle of the order bat. trading gonzalez took a huge piece out of the middle of the line up and none of the moves the sox made this offseason filled it. ortiz and napoli are not 3/4 hitters. more like 5 hitters, maybe 6. middlebrooks should be a 3/4 guy this year. but no one else on the team fits that profile. I think the rotation will be fine. we have vets in lester, lackey and dempster (another signing i did not like one bit), semi vet in buchholz, and lots of potential in de la rosa, webster and barnes. doubront is good but i think he will eventually become trade bait or a long reliever. Plus the next 2 free agency classes are filled with pitching. (which makes the dempster signing look even worse)

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    It's earlier than early, but we gotta like what we've seen so far from some of our SP'ers.

    I agree moon, this team is pretty good if we can stay healthy and get a joint effort from the vets and young pitchers.  I also think our club has good chemistry and just enough offense if we utilize our platoon players correctly.

    Should be a close division!

     

     

     




    The young guns look really really good. That's gotta improve your outlook on 2014 and beyond :p

     




     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to redsoxpride34's comment:

    its pretty obvious where the major concerns are with this team. outfield is a big issue. ellsbury if he can stay healthy is legit. outside of ellsbury our outfield is a bunch of question marks. gomes is a platoon player who is only good against lefties and is a liability in the field. victorino has been declining the past 3 years noticably and quite honestly I never liked the signing from the beginning and really never understood it. we have jackie bradley jr who quite honestly should be given a shot to make the team out of spring traing given the lack of talent currently manning the outfield. This team really needs a big bat in LF. Justin Upton would have been a perfect fit and I was surprised that the sox didnt take much of a run at him. Maybe they are waiting to go after giancarlo stanton, who knows. I would say hands down the biggest need on this team is a middle of the order bat. trading gonzalez took a huge piece out of the middle of the line up and none of the moves the sox made this offseason filled it. ortiz and napoli are not 3/4 hitters. more like 5 hitters, maybe 6. middlebrooks should be a 3/4 guy this year. but no one else on the team fits that profile. I think the rotation will be fine. we have vets in lester, lackey and dempster (another signing i did not like one bit), semi vet in buchholz, and lots of potential in de la rosa, webster and barnes. doubront is good but i think he will eventually become trade bait or a long reliever. Plus the next 2 free agency classes are filled with pitching. (which makes the dempster signing look even worse)



    Actually, 2011 was Victorino's best year by far.  So right really his decline is only 1 year...

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ice-Cream. Show Ice-Cream's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

     

    The starting rotation needs to pick it up.  In 2012, Red Sox starters ranked 27th in the majors with a 5.19 ERA.  Who was the only starter with an ERA below 4.50?  That would be Franklin Morales.  

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Tampa is the team with the  farm eveyone is jealous of, ut their starting lineup features only 2 homegrwn players (Longoria, Jennings). 

    While true TB has made multiple trades in what I think the way craze is envisioning that brought top propsects to their farm and who are now part of the big club or may be soon:

    Wil Myers, Jake Odorizzi, Mike Montgomery and Patrick Leoinard for Shields, W Davis & E Johnson.

    Ben Zobrist was obtained as a prospect for Aubrey Huff.

    Sean Rodrigues had less than 250 PAs when acquired from LA for Kazmir.

    Brandon Gomes was a prospect and Cesar Ramos had just 23 IP with the Padres before being traded for Jason Bartlett (TB also got nonprospect Adam Russell).

    Matt Joyce had ony 277 ML PAs when acquired from Detroit for Edwin Jackson.

    Robinson Chirinos was a prospect and Sam Fuld was 29 when the Rays got him via trade with the Cubs (for Garza) , but had just 131 PAs in MLB.

    Josh Lueke had just over 32 IP with the Mariners before being dealt for John Jaso.

     

    Plus, Raysprospects lists many current prospects as being acquired by trade, not to mention all the players drafted from comp picks obtained by departing FAs.

    1) Chis Archer (from Cubs)

    2) Hak-Ju Lee (Cubs)

    20) Brandon Guyer (Cubs)

    2011's list:

    4) Alex Torres (LAA)

     

    TB relies on its farm to a much greater amount than most teams, but many are not true "homegrown players".

     

     



    I think Tampa was a perfect example of what I'm taking about moon.  Granted they had a lot higher draft picks than us for a few years but they know what it takes to keep their team competitive without spending a ton on bridge/FA type players.

     

     



    TB mastered the use of departing FAs turned into draft picks, especially marginal relief pitchers. The deal to get Brad Hawpe was a perfect example of finding a way to improve their farm via the draft.

     



    Brad Hawpe's compensation pales to how eell Boston has done in this regard.  For example,  trading Chris Carter for Billy Wagner and using his picks on Kolbrin Vitek and Ranaudo. Or using comp picks on Swihart, Bradley and Brentz...

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    It's earlier than early, but we gotta like what we've seen so far from some of our SP'ers.

     




    The young guns look really really good. That's gotta improve your outlook on 2014 and beyond :p

     



    My outlook on 2014 and beyond has always been good, and small sample sizes don't usually sway me too much, but I am encouraged. 

    It's 2013 that I have disagreements with some of you guys about, and the fact that I wished we had done more to improve our 2015 and beyond outlook this winter.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: What is our real concern?

    Brad Hawpe's compensation pales to how eell Boston has done in this regard.  For example,  trading Chris Carter for Billy Wagner and using his picks on Kolbrin Vitek and Ranaudo. Or using comp picks on Swihart, Bradley and Brentz...

    I agree. The Wagner deal was brilliant.

    Time will tell how well TB does with all their comp picks, but they are already seeing some results from their trades of ML players for prospects and young players with little ML experience. The list of players above is pretty formidable.

    The trades of Garza, Kazmir and Bartlett brought a lot in return, and those players have not exactly lit the worl on fire after they left. There's also the Jesse Chavez deal for Soriano who gave them a great season and then netted them comp picks Mikie Mahtook (#31) and Brandon Martin (#38).

    What amazes me most is how many comp picks they got for the loss of mostly marginal relief pitchers...

    2011

    24 (Guerrieri) & 41 (Goeddel) for Crawford

    31 (Mahtook) & 38 (Martin) for Soriano

    42 (Ames) & 75 (Goetzman) for Balfour

    52 (Snell) for Hawpe

    56 (K Carter) for Benoit

    59 (G Garvin) for Choate

    60 (Harris) for Qualls

    2010:

    31 (J O'Conner) for L Washington

    42 (D Vettleson) for G Zaun

     

    Raysprospects.com lists Guerrieri as their #2, Vettleson as their #7, Mahtook as #8, Goeddel #10, B Martin #18, Snell #19, Ames #25, Goetzman #26, and Harris #28.

    That's 9 of their top 30 prospects via comp picks.

    Via the trade with the Cubs:

    1) Archer

    3) Lee

    20) Guyer

     

     

     

     

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