What is your favorite Red Sox rookie breakthrough?

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    Re: What is your favorite Red Sox rookie breakthrough?

    In Response to Re: What is your favorite Red Sox rookie breakthrough?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: What is your favorite Red Sox rookie breakthrough? : In all fairness though, Softleague, this may speak more to the organization's lack of producing 'players of color' than to the author.  Other than Rice (and Ellsbury), I can't think of another Sox 'breakout' rookie who was non-white.  Can you?
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]Nomar Garciaparra - Mexican American
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from 111SoxFan111. Show 111SoxFan111's posts

    Re: What is your favorite Red Sox rookie breakthrough?

    Burks is on par with Ellsbury, but Ells gets the nod because of his WS role as well as historical prejudice ... that which is more recent is imbued with greater significance.  Either way, neither really belong on a list of all-time RS rookies ... IMHO anyway.

    I don't want to distract this thread from it's primary purpose but I will point out one thing.  ML your use of the phrase "pandering to minority voters" is suspect.  But I do agree "Sometimes, one has to look inside to see hypocrisy."
     
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    [QUOTE]Burks is on par with Ellsbury, but Ells gets the nod because of his WS role as well as historical prejudice ... that which is more recent is imbued with greater significance.  Either way, neither really belong on a list of all-time RS rookies ... IMHO anyway. I don't want to distract this thread from it's primary purpose but I will point out one thing.  ML your use of the phrase "pandering to minority voters" is suspect.  But I do agree " Sometimes, one has to look inside to see hypocrisy."
    Posted by 111SoxFan111[/QUOTE]

    Would you say it is ... CAPTIOUS??   Wink
     
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    Re: What is your favorite Red Sox rookie breakthrough?

    Space, no offense, but it doesn't take "jogging the memory" to come up with one of the best rookie seasons in Red Sox history. The author of this thread most certainly can't submit that "rookie splash" is based upon a late season call-up on a team that he had little impact on in winning the 2007 AL East division title or the championship. The author makes the claim that he was some key helping hold off the Yankees that year. He wasn't, as the Yankees imploded well before the end because Torre overused his starters and admitted that they simply couldn't sustain the run they made for that long. I posted, on this very board, that those Yankees would run out of as, at a time when this board was in a panic over the lead being down to about one game back.

    The WS itself was a dominant sweep that was fueled by top pitching and a potent middle of the lineup. The "2007 WS run" was about winning the AL East, where Crisp played, all year, some of the best CF defense in Red Sox history. JD Drew actually provided the most important offensive heroics in the post season. That teams wasn't about Ellsbury, at all. It was much more about Crisp and the other everday players on that team. When Crisp was transitioned out because of the frequent CBA tenure cost issues that arise for most MLB players in this era, he handled the Red Sox fan abuse very well in 2008. I agree he needed to be traded for future value reasons, but never bought the notion that Bellsbury was this destined star who was clearly a better overall player than Crisp. The two were and are close in most career offensive numbers except steal totals, but Crisp is the far, far superior defensive CF'er. In addition, Crisp also has two back to back 15 homer and .300 hitting seasons with Cleveland, something Bellsbury is still working on. Few will remember that Crisp helped the Red Sox stay alive to 7 games in the ALCS when he filled in for the no confidence late season 2008 post season for Bellsbury. Crisp never pouted, which isn't something that can be said for a kid who pouted on the DL and took a year off because he and his agent were upset and moving out of CF, a position he is quite poor at, defensively.

    But, the bottom line is that Ellis Burks had the real "rookie splash", with the season long 20 homers and 20 steals season and good defense in the OF. Ellsbury has the injury proned issues that Burks had, but he'll never be the rookie splash in player performing substance that Burks had in his rookie season. Nor does he have anywhere near the talent that Burks had.

    The difference in populairty in Burks and Bellsbury should clue you in on the very reason Burks was left off and the spin is beginning on why Bellsbury had the bigger "rookie splash", which is absolutely absurd!
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from 111SoxFan111. Show 111SoxFan111's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: What is your favorite Red Sox rookie breakthrough? : Would you say it is ... CAPTIOUS??   
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]
    No, that would be an AD HOMINEM attack.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from majorleague. Show majorleague's posts

    Re: What is your favorite Red Sox rookie breakthrough?

    Burks is on par with Ellsbury

    Sorry, Burks is superior to Ellsbury for "rookie splash". 20 homers and 20 steals in a rookie season trumps a late call-up who had little if anything to do with the Division title or the WS title. Ellsbury's entire "splash" was the WS splits that were certainly not any difference maker on a team that would have dominated the Rockies without Ellsbury.

    This discussion is a paradigm of how affected Red Sox Nation is on this issue. It's also the reason they failed to see that Bellsbury was, in the spring of 2008, was not this gold glove CF'er, but was, in fact, a marginal to poor CF defender.

    To omit Ellis Burks and headline Ellsbury is embarrassingly sad for whoever this author is.
     
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    [QUOTE]Space, no offense, but it doesn't take "jogging the memory" to come up with one of the best rookie seasons in Red Sox history. The author of this thread most certainly can't submit that "rookie splash" is based upon a late season call-up on a team that he had little impact on in winning the 2007 AL East division title or the championship. The author makes the claim that he was some key helping hold off the Yankees that year. He wasn't, as the Yankees imploded well before the end because Torre overused his starters and admitted that they simply couldn't sustain the run they made for that long. I posted, on this very board, that those Yankees would run out of as, at a time when this board was in a panic over the lead being down to about one game back. The WS itself was a dominant sweep that was fueled by top pitching and a potent middle of the lineup. The "2007 WS run" was about winning the AL East, where Crisp played, all year, some of the best CF defense in Red Sox history. JD Drew actually provided the most important offensive heroics in the post season. That teams wasn't about Ellsbury, at all. It was much more about Crisp and the other everday players on that team. When Crisp was transitioned out because of the frequent CBA tenure cost issues that arise for most MLB players in this era, he handled the Red Sox fan abuse very well in 2008. I agree he needed to be traded for future value reasons, but never bought the notion that Bellsbury was this destined star who was clearly a better overall player than Crisp. The two were and are close in most career offensive numbers except steal totals, but Crisp is the far, far superior defensive CF'er. In addition, Crisp also has two back to back 15 homer and .300 hitting seasons with Cleveland, something Bellsbury is still working on. Few will remember that Crisp helped the Red Sox stay alive to 7 games in the ALCS when he filled in for the no confidence late season 2008 post season for Bellsbury. Crisp never pouted, which isn't something that can be said for a kid who pouted on the DL and took a year off because he and his agent were upset and moving out of CF, a position he is quite poor at, defensively. But, the bottom line is that Ellis Burks had the real "rookie splash", with the season long 20 homers and 20 steals season and good defense in the OF. Ellsbury has the injury proned issues that Burks had, but he'll never be the rookie splash in player performing substance that Burks had in his rookie season. Nor does he have anywhere near the talent that Burks had. The difference in populairty in Burks and Bellsbury should clue you in on the very reason Burks was left off and the spin is beginning on why Bellsbury had the bigger "rookie splash", which is absolutely absurd!
    Posted by majorleague[/QUOTE]

    Clue me into what:  that Red Sox nation is bias toward Native Americans over African Americans?
     
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    Re: What is your favorite Red Sox rookie breakthrough?

    Dana Kiecker 1990.   

    I remember he actually had a pretty good play-off start but I think Larry Anderson blew that game against the A's. 


     
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    Intellectually dishonest mental gymnastics comment. To follow up your PC comment of ignorance, is a person with caucasion spin pigment who is born in Africa an "African American"?

    Anyone born in this country is a "Native American". Bellsbury isn't a "redman", his ancestry is mixed. If he looked like Geronimo, trust me, he'd be as popular in B-Town as Ellis Burks was.

    Edward S. Curtis Geronimo Apache cp01002v.jpg

    So, the answer to your backhanded comment is yes.

    I'm Powhatan-American and a descendant of Pocahontas. 

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from 111SoxFan111. Show 111SoxFan111's posts

    Re: What is your favorite Red Sox rookie breakthrough?

    Ellsbury is on the list because he is a current player who did make a splash as a rookie ... no more, no less.  Burks rookie season was 24 years ago and isn't on par with Lynn, Rice, Tony C, et al. IMO ... just like Ells.  My point was that Burks rookie season should qualify if Ells' does but neither really belongs on the list.  

    Your anti-Native American bias is very concerning, btw. If you are going to preach to us about bias, indeed accusing others on this board, you should be clear that you mean black or African American only.  You clearly don't recognize other minorities which is, of course, quite biased.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from 111SoxFan111. Show 111SoxFan111's posts

    Re: What is your favorite Red Sox rookie breakthrough?

    ML: You are a poster child for sophistry.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

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    [QUOTE]Intellectually dishonest mental gymnastics comment. To follow up your PC comment of ignorance, is a person with caucasion spin pigment who is born in Africa an "African American"? Anyone born in this country is a "Native American". Bellsbury isn't a "redman", his ancestry is mixed. If he looked like Geronimo, trust me, he'd be as popular in B-Town as Ellis Burks was. So, the answer to your backhanded comment is yes. I'm Powhatan-American and a descendant of Pocahontas.   
    Posted by majorleague[/QUOTE]

    OK, fair enough.  I think it is great that you champion equality (though, again, you seem to have no problem denigrating women which tarnishes your otherwise-noble trait).  But, following your lines of thinking here, why has RSN embraced David Ortiz more warmly than any other player in Sox history?  
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Calmy. Show Calmy's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: What is your favorite Red Sox rookie breakthrough? : Clue me into what:  that Red Sox nation is bias toward Native Americans over African Americans?
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]

    But the nation does prefer African Americans to Thai-Americans as evidenced in the case Damon Vs. Crisp. 

    Somewhat suprisingly, a large number of fans like Cuban defectors (Iglesias) better than All-American white boys(Lowrie).  Am I the only one that finds it suspicious that the cuban communist infliltrator is playing for the RED sox?  I think The Donald needs to get on this ASAP.


     
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    Re: What is your favorite Red Sox rookie breakthrough?

    Your anti-Native American bias is very concerning, btw.

    Aside from everyone being native American, your comment is completely a dishonest smear attempt. I'm part Powhatan and have never had any bias towards Americans of early American tribal ancestry.

    Your anti-color bias is very concerning, btw. Burks had one of the best Red Sox rookie seasons in Red Sox history, with the emphasis on "season".

    Space, you have no factual basis whatsoever that I "denigrate women". But, the American voters have done a good job of denigrating them. 

    RSN has never embraced Ortiz, putting him through a ringer that no decent man should have to put up with. The poor starts to 2009 and 2010 were met with terrible abuse from the public. Wakefield, if the abuse was meted out based upon performance, should have been verbally flogged out of town by now. Instead, most Red Sox fans have no probelm with this "great guy" squatting on the roster with terrible metrics for nearly 2 seasons long.  
     
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    Calmy, you have about as much intellect as a mosquito.

    "I don't have all the facts yet, but the police were stupid".
     
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    [QUOTE]Your anti-Native American bias is very concerning, btw. Aside from everyone being native American, your comment is completely a dishonest smear attempt. I'm part Powhatan and have never had any bias towards Americans of early American tribal ancestry. Your anti-color bias is very concerning, btw. Burks had one of the best Red Sox rookie seasons in Red Sox history, with the emphasis on "season". Space, you have no factual basis whatsoever that I "denigrate women". But, the American voters have done a good job of denigrating them.  RSN has never embraced Ortiz, putting him through a ringer that no decent man should have to put up with. The poor starts to 2009 and 2010 were met with terrible abuse from the public. Wakefield, if the abuse was meted out based upon performance, should have been verbally flogged out of town by now. Instead, most Red Sox fans have no probelm with this "great guy" squatting on the roster with terrible metrics for nearly 2 seasons long.  
    Posted by majorleague[/QUOTE]

    Ortiz was put through the ringer because RSN is prone to ridiculous over-reaction to any failure to produce.  So stupid.  The reaction to his start the last two years made me crazy.  But, seriously, to imply that was because of teh color of his skin is a long reach.  No doubt Ortiz is one of the most popular Sox playes of all time.
     
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    [QUOTE]  RSN has never embraced Ortiz, putting him through a ringer that no decent man should have to put up with. The poor starts to 2009 and 2010 were met with terrible abuse from the public. Wakefield, if the abuse was meted out based upon performance, should have been verbally flogged out of town by now. Instead, most Red Sox fans have no probelm with this "great guy" squatting on the roster with terrible metrics for nearly 2 seasons long.  
    Posted by majorleague[/QUOTE]

    Ridiculous claim.  The data says that Manny is still adored by about 40% of Red Sox fans(me included), even after all the BS.  JD Drew has been a target of fan abuse since his first year here.  Do you read these boards?  Beckett(2007 play off hero) was crushed last year, Lackey has countless haters. The fans don't leave Wakefield on the roster and again do you read these boards?  Wakefield takes plenty of heat.

    Papi being met with "terrible abuse from the public" is absolute hyperbole.  He was met with frustration and skepticism, but that in large part was due to his struggles in light of him being on the infamous "list" and the perception that his struggles were a result of him no longer being on PED's.  Fans have absolutely stood behind Papi.

    For you to pick and choose your Wakefield/Papi argument and think that sample size is representitive of Red Sox nation's attitude toward players of different race is far fetched and irresponsible. 
     
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    [QUOTE]Selected by the Boston Red Sox in the 1st round (20th pick) of the 1983 Major League Baseball Draft , Burks made his debut in the 1987 season as a regular center fielder at age 22, becoming the third player in the Red Sox history to hit 20 home runs and steal 20 bases in one season. He was selected to both the Baseball Digest and Topps "All-Rookie" teams. Defensively, Burks showed excellent range, a sure glove and a strong arm Sometimes, one has to look inside to see hypocrisy. As much mileage as the bastion of the Left has netted from pandering to minority voters, few regions of the Nation are as affected as New England.   Space, look inside, friend. Ellsbury is just as injury prone early on, but not nearly as talented. However, look at the popularity difference in the two profiles. Very sad commentary on Red Sox Nation.
    Posted by majorleague[/QUOTE]
    yea,we do not like indiansTongue out
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from 111SoxFan111. Show 111SoxFan111's posts

    Re: What is your favorite Red Sox rookie breakthrough?

    Ug, give it up.  Big Papi is and has been almost universally loved by RSN.  He got too much heat for the slow starts but they were epic.  And, in case you didn't pick up on it, my other comments were tongue in cheek.  FWIW, Dice was greeted with open arms and much enthusiasm by RSN ... his inconsistency for the last 3 years has made him a target but that's the life of a professional player.

    Burks had a great rookie season and was a great player.  I'm not sure it was historic greatness and it wasn't recent so it is easier to forget.  If he was one of many players of color to be blatantly left off the list you might be on target by accusing OP of bias.  That isn't the case so let it go.

    FWIW, Ted Williams had the best rookie season of all and he isn't on this list somehow.  Should we accuse OP of bias against veterans?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Calmy. Show Calmy's posts

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    In Response to Re: What is your favorite Red Sox rookie breakthrough?:
    [QUOTE]Calmy, you have about as much intellect as a mosquito. "I don't have all the facts yet, but the police were stupid".
    Posted by majorleague[/QUOTE]


    Incognito Mosquito.

    I'm sick of this constant anti-mosquito sentiment that you spew.  Mosquitos have been around for like 80 million years but ask yourself this...... When was the last time the Red Sox drafted a player of Mosquito descent? 

    I'm pretty sure The Donald/Fox News is working on the clear connection between Mosquitos and islamic eco terrorism.  Can't spell Mosquito with out Mosque..... think about that for a minute.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from 111SoxFan111. Show 111SoxFan111's posts

    Re: What is your favorite Red Sox rookie breakthrough?

    Does Paps in 2006 count as a rookie splash or does his limited playing time in '05 disqualify him.  If it counts, 2006 was pretty electrifying.  If I recall correctly, he went pretty far into the season before giving up a run.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

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    In Response to Re: What is your favorite Red Sox rookie breakthrough?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: What is your favorite Red Sox rookie breakthrough? : Incognito Mosquito. I'm sick of this constant anti-mosquito sentiment that you spew.  Mosquitos have been around for like 80 million years but ask yourself this...... When was the last time the Red Sox drafted a player of Mosquito descent?  I'm pretty sure The Donald/Fox News is working on the clear connection between Mosquitos and islamic eco terrorism.  Can't spell Mosquito with out Mosque..... think about that for a minute.
    Posted by Calmy[/QUOTE]

    Well, they certainly have been slow to come around on mosquitos, but, as Softy can attest, they did draft a jitterbug.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Calmy. Show Calmy's posts

    Re: What is your favorite Red Sox rookie breakthrough?

    Troy O'leary 1995.

    He had barely played the previous 2 years in MIL,  27 and 19 games total of about 100 ABs.

    In 1995 he got 430 ABs and finished with a .305 average. He also had a few memorable hits that year, including at least 1 walk-off HR that I remember.  And he went on to have many productive years.

    Dare I point out his skin color?
     
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    Re: What is your favorite Red Sox rookie breakthrough?





    I thought this could be an interesting thread, but... it deteriorated into  racial junk.  The originator of the thread provided a candidate sample list which was totally diverse.  majorlrague's input, planted the racial seed, he then listed a player that wasn't a rookie (coming to the sox from Minnesota), then slammed one of the sample choices.  All his junk, either off topic or negative.  Welcome to my short ignore list majorleague.
     
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    In Response to Re: What is your favorite Red Sox rookie breakthrough?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: What is your favorite Red Sox rookie breakthrough? : Ummm...ichiro did it as well.
    Posted by --The--Babe--1[/QUOTE]

    Correct, Babe. You got me there. I am mistaken and I apologize. Thanks for the pick up.

    And Suzuki also led the league that year in SB. Topped Lynn in that regard. More hardware over time, etc.
     

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