What's wrong with this picture?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

    In response to joel49's comment:

     

    Clay pitches seven strong innings and leaves with the score tied.  Miller sets down five in a row.  Alex Wilson pitches to one batter in the ninth and gets the win.  I realize it's been this way for over a century, but I'd still like to see a change in how wins are determined. 

     



    I agree, there is a lot wrong with this picture.  Personally, I think assigning a Win to any single player on a team sport is kind of silly.

     

    That said, I don't see the rules changing any time soon.  People just need to realize that Wins for a pitcher is the single most useless stat in baseball. 

     

     




    I will argue the Save is just as useless, if not moreso...

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    I don't understand why the win stat bothers people (Hi Kimmi Smile)

    Surely most fans are sophisticated enough now to realize that W-L can be misleading.

    But I like to know that Pedro's career record was 219-100.  I think in his case it reflects his excellence.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    I don't understand why the win stat bothers people (Hi Kimmi Smile)

    Surely most fans are sophisticated enough now to realize that W-L can be misleading.

    But I like to know that Pedro's career record was 219-100.  I think in his case it reflects his excellence.




     

    With SP, W-L might be somewhat relevant when you look at large sample sizes.  Sometimes guys in the right situation do run off an inordinate number of win.  Paul Abbot went 17-4 with the 2001 Mariners, but he was not a guy anyone would have thought of as an elite starter.

     

    Saves, on the other hand, are more a function of opportunity, especially since the closer evolved into a ninth inning specialist.  Even the greatest reliever cannot turn a game around into a save situation.

     

    Look at the top ten pitchers in wins, and you see some of the best SP in MLB history. In fact, everyone one of the top 23 pitchers in wins is a Hall of Famer (except those not yet eligible).  Look at the top ten pitchers in career saves, and you see guys like Troy Percival and Randy Myers.  Are these guys really among the best relief pitchers in MLB history?

     

    I do get that the wins/Hall of Fame thing is more of a cause/effect relationship than a coincidental metric, but which of the top 23 would you argue was not Hall-worthy?   Maybe Don Sutton? Maybe.  The top 23 for saves includes guys like Todd Jones, Doug Jones, Rick Aguilea, Rob Nen, Jason Isringhausen and Jose Mesa.   These are just maybe average to above average pitchers who got by as opportunists that played the game in the right era.  Under no circumstances can it even be argued that any of them are all time greats...

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    In response to notin's comment:

    I will argue the Save is just as useless, if not moreso...



    Notin, you will not get much of an argument from me there.

    While I would still put the Win ahead of the Save in terms of uselessness, the Save is a very flawed stat.

     

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    I don't understand why the win stat bothers people (Hi Kimmi Smile)

    Surely most fans are sophisticated enough now to realize that W-L can be misleading.

    But I like to know that Pedro's career record was 219-100.  I think in his case it reflects his excellence.



    Hi Bob,  I agree that a career W-L record can give an accurate reflection of a pitcher's excellence.

    1.  Scenarios like the one cited in the opening post show how whack the assignment of wins and losses are.  There are situations similar to this every day, where a pitcher pitches an outstanding game and gets a no decision or a loss, and vice versa. 

    2.  No matter how well a pitcher pitches, he cannot get a Win without help from his team.  A pitcher does not win the game.  The team wins the game.

    It doesn't bother me so much when a pitcher pitches great and gets a Win.  It really bothers me when a pitcher gives up 7 runs over 5 innings and gets a win because his offense was able to score 8 runs for him.

    3.  While all stats are flawed to some extent, this stat is seriously flawed.  For any given game or even over a season, a pitcher getting a Win or a Loss really tells me nothing about how that pitcher performed.

     

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    In response to PikeJr's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    I don't understand why the win stat bothers people (Hi Kimmi Smile)

    Surely most fans are sophisticated enough now to realize that W-L can be misleading.

    But I like to know that Pedro's career record was 219-100.  I think in his case it reflects his excellence.


     Haven't you preached this sermon many times before?  You are 100 % right but why preach it over and over to trolls? Are you a glutton for punishment.  Be done with it and just identify them and call them trolls? Bash the trolls.



    Um, notin and Kimmi are not trolls, last I checked.

     

     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    In response to PikeJr's comment:

    NEVER, NEVER , said that Kimmi was a troll.  In my mind Kimmi is the most HONEST, INTELLIGENT, PERCEPTIVE, WELL-READ, LOYAL, and REASONABLE RS FAN on this forum. She is the best poster on this forum.



    Well then, maybe you should actually read the posts on a thread before jumping in like you did there.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from prknsdnld. Show prknsdnld's posts

    Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    Correct, the win should go to Buch. The scoring should change such that in any game a team wins and no pitcher pitches more than 5 innings, then it's a "staff/team" win.



    No it shouldn't. And no, it isn't. Keep your fantasy baseball team out of this.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    Baseball = Change Bad, 1940's Good.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from kannaman. Show kannaman's posts

    Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    In response to pinstripezac35's comment:

    In response to RedSoxKimmi's comment:

     

    In response to joel49's comment:

     

    Clay pitches seven strong innings and leaves with the score tied.  Miller sets down five in a row.  Alex Wilson pitches to one batter in the ninth and gets the win.  I realize it's been this way for over a century, but I'd still like to see a change in how wins are determined. 

     



    I agree, there is a lot wrong with this picture.  Personally, I think assigning a Win to any single player on a team sport is kind of silly.

     

    That said, I don't see the rules changing any time soon.  People just need to realize that Wins for a pitcher is the single most useless stat in baseball. 

     

     

     




     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    sorry no time to expand ms kimmi

     

    heck U heard it all B4 anyways

    then again some need 2 B reminded more than others ;-)

     




    Ohhhh Zac...I think you should leave the bag on the head...

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from kannaman. Show kannaman's posts

    Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    Wins and Losses are a flawed statistic...when a pitcher loses a game 1-0 and gets a loss it just doesn't seem right or when he gives up 8 runs in 7 innings like Hellickson did the other day and gets a win...well that just isn't right. On the other hand a pitcher ends up doing more work in the game than any position player...the catcher comes pretty close and all he gets is beat up but I doubt if baseball will ever change the way they rule on it.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    lol kman

     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    In response to stapleton's comment:

    Why does a home run that wins a game down the stretch in a pennant race count the same as a home run hit in the first inning of a 10 -0 game in April?  Both count as only one home run!

    Does that sound logical?????????????????????




    Name one stat in any sport that cannot be downgraded using that logic.  Why is a touchdown in September worth the same as a touchdown in December?  Should it be if the scoring team is 3-12?

     

    Wins and saves are flowed from the outset.  Home runs, regardless of month, meaure a player's ability to hit the ball over the fence...

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    The OP got his wish one day late.  Last night saw the winning pitcher decided by the official scorer.  He could have given it to Mortensen or Breslow.  Breslow got it for being more effective.

    This can only be done in cases where the starting pitcher for the winning team doesn't go 5 innings.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    I don't think wins and losses for a pitcher are a totally useless stat.  But they're not the key stat, that's for sure.  Especially in the modern era where the complete game has gone the way of the dodo bird.


    Here is a recent article from USA Today (replete with a misleading headline):

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2013/05/08/quality-starts-a-misleading-stat/2144821/

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from prknsdnld. Show prknsdnld's posts

    Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    Correct, the win should go to Buch. The scoring should change such that in any game a team wins and no pitcher pitches more than 5 innings, then it's a "staff/team" win.



    And while we are at it, if a batter hits a line drive that is caught, he should be awarded a base hit because, after all, he did his job and got good wood on the ball.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from joel49. Show joel49's posts

    Re: What's wrong with this picture?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    The OP got his wish one day late.  Last night saw the winning pitcher decided by the official scorer.  He could have given it to Mortensen or Breslow.  Breslow got it for being more effective.

    This can only be done in cases where the starting pitcher for the winning team doesn't go 5 innings.




    Right, nut, and good on you for picking up on last night's scoring decision.  Funny thing is, as I was watching Dempster trying to hang on and get through the fifth to have a chance at the W (which I was hoping he'd do given his lack of support in other starts), I was thinking "Now what's wrong with THIS picture?" 

    So does this beg the question, why not change the rule to allow the official scorer, or a committeee of scorers, to determine wins and losses based on effectiveness? 

     

     

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