When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting catcher even if he hits.160

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from BaseballGM. Show BaseballGM's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    You are pitiful. The Buch numbers tell the story, and the sample is quite large. Also pitiful flailing on Posada and Pettite, and Posada squatting for all those Yankee titles. It only matters when you claim it does. Pathetic.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    In Response to Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting catcher even if he hits.160:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting catcher even if he hits.160 : Since Tek became a FT catcher, Boston has a better record in getting the main prize over Ny/Posada. This despite Ny having over a half billion dollar spending advantage over that time. NY buys up the best talent. In addition, when they were successful in the late 90's, it's because their farm produced a landfall of talent. It also helped that they played teams like SD in the fall classic. But those 90's teams were good on all levels. Posada compromises his pitchers. The data with his back-ups over the years speaks for itself. But keep in mind, a compromised Pettitte is still far better than an uncompromised Brad Penny (circa 2009 A.L. East). "Tek was terrible" with BUCH for the same reasons VMART was terrible with Buch in 2009. Get ur head out of ur AZZ and admit to who primarily caught BUCH in 2010....and who caught a whole 4 IP with him. List Buch year to year and you'll see there is never a decent frame of reference. The back-ups rarely caught him in any year. In any cyberspace life form, you have ambulance-chasing tactics.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Huh? They played ATL (with Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine) in '96 and '98 and the NYM in 2000.  Admittedly SD wasn't as good, but was COL so good in '07? Even StL in '04?

     
  3. This post has been removed.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hammah29r2. Show Hammah29r2's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    Posts: 471
    First: 3/22/2011
    Last: 4/14/2011
    Without Varitek, Beckett beat the Yankees for the WS. Period
    do you mean he beat the yankees to go to the world series?
     
     
    the bottom line here is that 39 year old jason V-Tek inspite of being in incredible shape is not capable of being the full time catcher anymore. If he can catch 60 games for tito that will be terrific. you can not stop father time fireballer58.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1for89. Show 1for89's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    In Response to Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting catcher even if he hits.160:
    [QUOTE]...
    do you mean he beat the yankees to go to the world series?
    ...
    Posted by Hammah29r2[/QUOTE]

    2003
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from BaseballGM. Show BaseballGM's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    No, Beckett beat the Yankees to win the WS.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    In Response to Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting catcher even if he hits.160:
    [QUOTE]No, Beckett beat the Yankees to win the WS.
    Posted by BaseballGM[/QUOTE]

    Yes, he did. However, it sounds like you don't care who catches. Good luck with that.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    In Response to Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting catcher even if he hits.160:
    [QUOTE]You are pitiful. The Buch numbers tell the story, and the sample is quite large. Also pitiful flailing on Posada and Pettite, and Posada squatting for all those Yankee titles. It only matters when you claim it does. Pathetic.
    Posted by BaseballGM[/QUOTE]


    You are clueless to this criteria and how to apply it.
    If you had ur way, the team would have saved $$$ and got a springboard to act as a catcher.

    Flailing on Posada and Pettitte? Try doing some research.
    Last year was one of Pettitte's finest, up to his injury (which makes his retirement a mystery). He split his IP between Posada and Cervelli, which allows for a good frame of reference:

    W/POSADA:     11 G.  61 IP   3.79 ERA  .335 BABIP   53 SO   25 BB

    W/CERVELLI: 10 G.  67 IP  2.81 ERA  .259 BABIP  48 SO  16 BB

    (Note to you sabermetric guys: Pettitte gave up more dingers with Cervelli - 8 to 5 -  and had a better SO/IP ratio with Posada, but was clearly more effective with Cervelli, which is why I prioritize BABIP/ERA over FIP).


    There was a poor frame of reference with Pettitte up until 2008, when others began to catch him more frequently.

    2008: PETTITTE WITH:

    POSADA:      46 IP     5.44 ERA
    MOLINA:   112 IP  4.15 ERA
    MOELLER:   39 IP  3.18 ERA

    2009: PETTITTE WITH:

    POSADA:    129 IP    4.30 ERA
    MOLINA:    44 IP   3.65 ERA

    Where there's an adequate frame of reference, Posada comes up short constantly.
    It's highly  deceptive to measure this by career numbers. Of course, DECEPTION is where you live.

    I'll say it yet again: A catcher's relevance has to be measured year to year.
    Pitchers form/health can change dramatically from one year to the next.
    Would you rather have Schilling in '04 - or' 05?
    Would you rather have Beckett in '07 - or '08?




     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    Explain how Posada "compromised" the pitching staff in the Yankees WS runs?

    Explain why almost every year Posada's back-up got better numbers (starter by starter) than Posada did? Posada made up for some of the difference with his bat, and the rest of the team "carried his deficiency to a few titles.

    The same way you never understood how the Sox won despite Lugo, not because of his "wire-to-wire" clown nonsense.


    Explain how Varitek has been terrible with Buch, and don't let me see that one game nonsense?

    Vtek barely caught Buch last year. How hard is that to understand? And VMart did not do that much better by those tiny numbers anyways. If o ealy think the Buch of 2008 was the same as 2010, then thee's no point in arguing with a clown.

    2010: VMart (164 IP) 2.13
                VTek  (4 IP )     2.25

    2009: VMart (77)  4.34
                VTek  (10)  3.72

    2008: VTek  (67)  6.88
                Cash (9)    5.79

    2007: VTek (19)  1.93
            Others (4)    0.00

    This record tells nothing about who catches Buch better; however, almost every other pitcher has done markedly better with VTek. Why don't you give us a reason why this is so? You ask us to show why Buch does better with VMart (he really hasn't), but when we ask you why other do way better with VMart, all we get is crickets...
               

    Orsillo doesn't buy it, and anyone in their right minds doesn't buy it.

    Yes, only you and Orsillo are in your "right minds".

    Catching is all about throwing runners out ability, hitting ability, and the agility to block the ball behind the plate.
     
    This shows your limited grasp of the game of baseball on so many levels I don't know where to begin. In short:
    1) Pitchers do not spend their off days planning how to pitch to the next opponent, catchers and coaches do.
    2) Just because a pitcher does not call off a sign or location, does not mean if it was totally up to him to choose, he'd have called that exact same pitch.
    3) Retired pitchers, who have no vested interest in lying, almost all speak of the value of a good pitch-calling catcher who provides emotional support.
    4) Years of numbers back up the claim that some catchers get more from a staff than others. Huge sample sizes back this up. Just because we can't pinpoint the exact reason why it is so, doesn't mean it is nonsense.

    Napoli is strictly a pull hitter against left handed pitching, he doesn't throw well, so it's quite clear why he's been a part-time catcher.

    Why is it clear that although he hits twice as good as Mathis, the pitchers and team did better when Mathis caught? Way way better. No, it can't be CERA, it must be how poorly he blocked the plate.



    As Orsillo correclty point out, pitches throw whatever they want and wherever they want to throw it. They all have their own approaches.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    What are Varitek's splits, this season?

    Showing that softy logic again.

    0 for 7 vs LHPs
    1 for 3 vs RHPs

    Is this supposed to mean something important?
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    Even if you're a strong believer in cERA, can you make the case that Varitek is a significantly better game caller?

    2003 Varitek cERA = 4.53, team era = 4.48
    2004 Varitek cERA = 4.20, team era = 4.18
    2005 Varitek cERA = 5.05, team era = 4.74
    2006 Varitek cERA = 4.87, team era = 4.83
    2007 Varitek cERA = 3.81, team era = 3.87
    2008 Varitek cERA = 3.67, team era = 4.01
    2009 Varitek cERA = 3.89, team era = 4.35
    2010 Varitek cERA = 4.09, team era = 4.20 (27 games)

    2008 Salty cERA = 5.19, team era = 5.37 (54 games)
    2009 Salty cERA = 4.10, team era = 4.38 (83 games)

    slomag, the team numbers listed here include VTek's. Most of these year's the vast majority of the IP wee by VTek, so the team ERA was heavily skewed towards his number. Better to compare VTek's numbers vs th others seperated. Then you'll see a much wider differential. Better still is to compare apples to apples and how the numbers broken down by pitcher so as to take out that variable.

    Here's an example:

    Catcher A catches:
       Pitcher A for 90 IP and 20 ERs (2.00 CERA) Cy Young winner
       pitcher B for 90 IP and 40 ERs (4.00 CERA) 5th starter

    Catcher B cacthes:
       Pitcher A for 180 IP and 40 ERs (2.00 ERA)   
       pitcher B for 0 IP

    Catcher A has a 3.00 CERA
    Catcher B has a 2.00 CERA

    Does this make catcher B better?    


                     
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    Moon, this clown - who claims he isn't Softy - despite having identical opinions in all areas - isn't interested in getting to the truth. He never is. His sole purpose is to distort the pertinent data so as to justify is "CATCHERS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH PITCHERS" take. It clearly shows his lack of baseball knowledge.

    You do bring up - or should I say re-bring up - a good point.
    Posters are at a continued loss to explain the phenomenon other than to try and compromise the data as would a good defense lawyer when he tries to expand "a shadow of a doubt".

    We all have our own perceptions as to the reasons, but none can be proven definitive.

    Which is why the reasons for a catcher's relevance isn't nearly as important as the end result. This is where critics of the data are so wrong.
    I've used this analogy before: It's like trying to prove man's very existence. While educated guesses are all and fine, all that really matters is that we are here.
    Why focus on an area that will never be answered?
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    Good analogy.

    I have asked for, but never gotten a credible answer when I ask them to explain why VTek has a wide CERA differential with nearly every pitcher with large enough comparable sample sizes year after after year, catcher after catcher after catcher.

    When the very few have attempted an excuse, the numbers never back it up or they misuse CERA in clearly ineffective ways.

    Then, they act like we are saying that in a given game, the catcher is more important than the pitcher and that every game is a value judgement sample size.

    Sodty, ehh hemm, GM actually thinks the pitcher calls every pitch just because he can change the call. He obviously has never played baseball at a higher level.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BaseballGM. Show BaseballGM's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    Slomag, well said. Hammer, meet nail head! These two old board bullies are about as worthless as Wakefield. They have a lot in common, in that they both need to understand that the world doesn't revolve around their astrology planet alignment theories.

    In statistics, whey they do is selectively use a sample and a set as anecdotal "proof", then reject comparative samples and sets as performance timing anamolies.

    Many people can "spin" numbers to make them help "prove" their case. That does not make the statistics or data useful, relevant, accurate, or especially applicable to that group.



    http://Es.com/6064388
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    So, what you ar saying then is that if VMart were here in 2008, Buch would have had a great ERA with him.

    Try understanding what CERA and related issues are before you spew ignorance. It's near worthless as a tool of comparing catchers who catch different pitchers or thesame pitchers at different points in their careers.

    Stop acting and pretending that we are saying the catcher is 100% responsible for what a pitcher does.

    We are still awaiting your reasoning for why almost every pitcher who was caught a significant amount of innings from 2 or more catchers did better with VTek than VMart year after year? Why was that VMart trend also true in Cleveland? Why was the Napoli/Mathis trend constant for years? The Posdada trends? and on and on? If there was nothing to CERA, wouldn't it all even out over several years?

    You may not like or agree with our answers to your questions and positions, but at least we address them and dont focus on one short sample size case as proof the whole CERA case is a fraud.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from BaseballGM. Show BaseballGM's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    What you do is bombastically protest with selective sample and set. Slomag has provided what amounts to a complete refutation of this magic fingers bunk.

    There is no way a catcher can be "partially responsible" for a good pitch and a good result, or vice versa. He doesn't throw it, doesn't decide what to throw or where to throw it! If a caddy says to putt a ball one cup distance to the left and the ball is stroked perfectly but never breaks, the golfer is 100% responsible for the putt because he reads the putt himself and decides the line and the speed.

    Varitek is an old Red Sox fans favorite. There is no need to make up bogus reasons for what his value is to the current team.

    Another poster made a terrific comment about how the old "good" guys are hung on to longer than the "bad" guys. This is a terrible way to run a team. It's not about who the perceived "good" guys and "bad" guys are, it's about what do their current skills and performance reliability bring to the table to help that year's team win. A good GM treats the trouble makers and fan favorties with the same stern evealuative approach. Being a trouble makers doesn't always ruin team chemistry and the clubhouse. It depends on what the player brings to the table and takes away from the table.

    While Varitek can still be a marginal backup catcher, there is no excuse for spending the 2011 payroll and not having a much better one. Wakefield's case is simply a total ignorance of reality. He can't be a marginal anything other than throw batting practice. There is no excuse why that budget or the far doesn't produce something better than an elderly Tim Wakefield.

    While the Yankees aren't perfect, they do a much better job of forcing these old former starters off the stage. I think the true litmus test is whether these old guys would still show up for spring training if they had milliions banked up but only got room and board and a small allowance for playing professional baseball. Wakefield and Varitek would be long gone if that were the case. 

    Bottom line, Theo offered those two contracts when the merits made it clear the team could have been improved by getting improved players in those roster spots.  Wakefield should never have been given a guaranteed million dollar plus contract offer for 2010, ditto for Varitek, which was done twice.

    Ortiz's option should not have been picked up, as he could have been signed for a lot less than that. But at least he put up good DH numbers for 2010 and had an All-Star year and finished the year in good health. Thus, giving him a roster spot for 2011 had merit, even if picking up an option way over the market had no merit.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    To add to that: Going by the accumulative means combining Beckett of 2007 with Beckett of 2010, or Schill of 2004 with Schill of 2005, or Buch of 2009 with Buch of 2010.
    You end up with flawed averages. Talk about spinning numbers.

    This is all this clown has. VMART didn't suddenly get twice as good because BUCH had a 2010 ERA (with VMART) near half what it was in 2009.

    Now I see the spin doctor is employing new tactics; being "bullied" - this coming from one who could write a book on them.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BaseballGM. Show BaseballGM's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    I don't think anyone on this board, other than the a couple of loons, takes catcher is part of pitching seriously. The only flawed averages and spinning numbers are the anectdotal selective sample and size web weaving these lunatics are engaging in. If Varitek needs another roomate, he should pay these two lunatics to keep his house in disorder.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    In Response to Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting catcher even if he hits.160:
    [QUOTE]I don't think anyone on this board, other than the a couple of loons, takes catcher is part of pitching seriously. The only flawed averages and spinning numbers are the anectdotal selective sample and size web weaving these lunatics are engaging in. If Varitek needs another roomate, he should pay these two lunatics to keep his house in disorder.
    Posted by BaseballGM[/QUOTE]

    You could be right. Why, I myself don't quite agree with:

    "takes catcher is part of pitching seriously".

    It's always best to stay in class until the bell rings...


     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hammah29r2. Show Hammah29r2's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    Posts: 508
    First: 3/22/2011
    Last: 4/15/2011
    No, Beckett beat the Yankees to win the WS


    yup your right! my bad, I forgot he did it for the fish.

    not quite sure what your trying to say about meeting a nail head, or being an old board bully. or am I misunderstanding what you meant.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    In Response to Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting catcher even if he hits.160:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting catcher even if he hits.160 : Since Tek became a FT catcher, Boston has a better record in getting the main prize over Ny/Posada. This despite Ny having over a half billion dollar spending advantage over that time. NY buys up the best talent. In addition, when they were successful in the late 90's, it's because their farm produced a landfall of talent. It also helped that they played teams like SD in the fall classic. But those 90's teams were good on all levels. Posada compromises his pitchers. The data with his back-ups over the years speaks for itself. But keep in mind, a compromised Pettitte is still far better than an uncompromised Brad Penny (circa 2009 A.L. East). "Tek was terrible" with BUCH for the same reasons VMART was terrible with Buch in 2009. Get ur head out of ur AZZ and admit to who primarily caught BUCH in 2010....and who caught a whole 4 IP with him. List Buch year to year and you'll see there is never a decent frame of reference. The back-ups rarely caught him in any year. In any cyberspace life form, you have ambulance-chasing tactics.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Who caught Lester and Buch for the majority of games in 2010? Were they not both CY contenders?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    Varitek's CERA over his career is approximately 2 FULL RUNS better than his counterparts. End of discussion.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BaseballGM. Show BaseballGM's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    Who caught Lester and Buch for the majority of games in 2010? Were they not both CY contenders?

    Good point, but remember, Varitek was Cy Young contender for 2010.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BaseballGM. Show BaseballGM's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    As for "counterparts" who are these "counterparts"? What is your sample size and sample set?
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: When we inevitably get the bats going our offense will be a freight train from hell, and V-Tek should be the starting cat...

    Funny, if Salt wasn't on the team and tek was catching every day, there'd be a ton of threads about how terrible Tek is and how the Sox should have gotten Salty.

     

Share