Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Promise4you2. Show Promise4you2's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

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    1) Wanting to trade a guy does not mean you think he is useless or bad.

    2) Looking beyond ERA is not bashing.

    3) Pointing out that a player came to camp out of shape in 2 of his 3 MLB seasons is not bashing.

     

       I'm not "admitting I was wrong", because I have said all along that Doubront has nasty stuff, but has a way too high WHIP to be able to sustain a lower ERA over a long period of time. He pitched a great game against a team with a better offense than many want to realize. He's had a very good 4-5 start stretch and seems to be heading in the right direction at a time when we need someone to step it up. I hope he continues his progress. I am happy for him and root for him as much as any other Sox pitcher. I'm hoping I am wrong about his motivational and attitude issues and will be the first to admit it after a proper sample size which includes some crunch time action has been completed. It's great to see his WHIP and ERA go down and that helping us get wins. It's surprising to see his 2013 WHIP is still higher than 2012 and his career number, but if he keeps pitching like this, it won't take long.

     

    Side note: when Doubront pitches poorly for a game or a stretch, you won't see me create a thread calling you and others out.

     

    Sox4ever

     

     

     

     



    And just think, if it was up to you, we would have traded one of the best young up and coming left handers in THE GAME for Gavin Floyd ( 0-4, 5.18, 2.08 whip : ) ) or....oh ya, Brett Anderson ( who's been on the dl more than he's actually pitched )  NOW WILL YOU ADMIT that you were wrong on Doubront? How's that whip doing now moon ....?

     

     

     

     

     

     

     




    Im on your side about keeping Doubront, you know that. But Do you have to rub another posters nose in it everytime he wins? That just starts a fight, or keeps one going.

     

     

     

    Even if you did it without mentioning names. Maybe a "well, for all of those wanting Doubront gone" type thing instead of singling one poster out. Realistically, I could name a half dozen off the top of my head that wanted him gone, not just Moon.

    Ok, enough of that...

    Doubront is getting better with each game it seems. Hes now starting to consistently go 7IP and hasnt given up more than 3ER is 11 games. Since he stared this run of 3ER or less, his ERA has gone down 2 full runs. Ive seen him hit 94MPH on the gun again. Not consistently, but semi-consistently. Hes become economical with his pitch count, which has allowed him to go deeper into games. His ERA+ is way up and his WHIP, although still 1.4, is now trending down.

    I still dont like the out of shape thing and it did hurt this team at the start of the year ans well as his shoulder. Im hoping he can now realize what it does to you and to the team. If he does do it again, and as hard as it would be, I would shop him. We have some good arms that are willing to put in the time in the off season as well as in season to make them better and help the team, not hurt it.

     

     



    Hey Southy, another gem by Doubs. I think he got his head in order, stopped glaring at the umps, getting a few more calls his way and maturing finally. I want to disagree about shopping him next year if he comes in out of shape. If this guy can win 15-18 games a year for the next five, years at a reasonable cost, would it not be smarter to hire a trainer to work with him through out the off season and have him report monthly to sox management on his condition? I bet you can hire a good trainer for less than 100K for 5 months.

     

     

    Lets face it, he is still a kid, kids do, well dumb things. I Also dont believe there is a better arm in the minors than his. Seen a lot of rah rah (and im big on our minor leaguers) but they have shown not much better than Doubs. just my thoughts.

     



    Good Morning promise!
    Seeing that this is his 2nd time doing it, I would have a very serious, if they already havent, sit down with him...again. Make no bones about it, and convey very clearly and directly what they expect from him.

    I understand he can win 15-17, but he hurt this team in 2011 because they expected to use him in the rotation that year, and this year at the start of the year coming in and looking awful. At some point you have to put your foot down. The good thing is that most teams would give a lot in return for a LHP who has swing and miss stuff and is under control for 4+ years. We do have a few prospects starting to knock on the door for a spot in the rotation.

    I dont want to have to go down that road Promise, but Felix is going to be 26 at the end of Oct.. Thats not a kid anymore. He has great potential. TOTR potential. If he cant take it seriously, then let another kid who has the potential to win 15 games get a shot.




    I have a son thats 32 and still has not grown up!

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to Promise4you2's comment:

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    1) Wanting to trade a guy does not mean you think he is useless or bad.

    2) Looking beyond ERA is not bashing.

    3) Pointing out that a player came to camp out of shape in 2 of his 3 MLB seasons is not bashing.

     

       I'm not "admitting I was wrong", because I have said all along that Doubront has nasty stuff, but has a way too high WHIP to be able to sustain a lower ERA over a long period of time. He pitched a great game against a team with a better offense than many want to realize. He's had a very good 4-5 start stretch and seems to be heading in the right direction at a time when we need someone to step it up. I hope he continues his progress. I am happy for him and root for him as much as any other Sox pitcher. I'm hoping I am wrong about his motivational and attitude issues and will be the first to admit it after a proper sample size which includes some crunch time action has been completed. It's great to see his WHIP and ERA go down and that helping us get wins. It's surprising to see his 2013 WHIP is still higher than 2012 and his career number, but if he keeps pitching like this, it won't take long.

     

    Side note: when Doubront pitches poorly for a game or a stretch, you won't see me create a thread calling you and others out.

     

    Sox4ever

     

     

     

     



    And just think, if it was up to you, we would have traded one of the best young up and coming left handers in THE GAME for Gavin Floyd ( 0-4, 5.18, 2.08 whip : ) ) or....oh ya, Brett Anderson ( who's been on the dl more than he's actually pitched )  NOW WILL YOU ADMIT that you were wrong on Doubront? How's that whip doing now moon ....?

     

     

     

     

     

     

     




    Im on your side about keeping Doubront, you know that. But Do you have to rub another posters nose in it everytime he wins? That just starts a fight, or keeps one going.

     

     

     

    Even if you did it without mentioning names. Maybe a "well, for all of those wanting Doubront gone" type thing instead of singling one poster out. Realistically, I could name a half dozen off the top of my head that wanted him gone, not just Moon.

    Ok, enough of that...

    Doubront is getting better with each game it seems. Hes now starting to consistently go 7IP and hasnt given up more than 3ER is 11 games. Since he stared this run of 3ER or less, his ERA has gone down 2 full runs. Ive seen him hit 94MPH on the gun again. Not consistently, but semi-consistently. Hes become economical with his pitch count, which has allowed him to go deeper into games. His ERA+ is way up and his WHIP, although still 1.4, is now trending down.

    I still dont like the out of shape thing and it did hurt this team at the start of the year ans well as his shoulder. Im hoping he can now realize what it does to you and to the team. If he does do it again, and as hard as it would be, I would shop him. We have some good arms that are willing to put in the time in the off season as well as in season to make them better and help the team, not hurt it.

     

     



    Hey Southy, another gem by Doubs. I think he got his head in order, stopped glaring at the umps, getting a few more calls his way and maturing finally. I want to disagree about shopping him next year if he comes in out of shape. If this guy can win 15-18 games a year for the next five, years at a reasonable cost, would it not be smarter to hire a trainer to work with him through out the off season and have him report monthly to sox management on his condition? I bet you can hire a good trainer for less than 100K for 5 months.

     

     

    Lets face it, he is still a kid, kids do, well dumb things. I Also dont believe there is a better arm in the minors than his. Seen a lot of rah rah (and im big on our minor leaguers) but they have shown not much better than Doubs. just my thoughts.

     



    Good Morning promise!
    Seeing that this is his 2nd time doing it, I would have a very serious, if they already havent, sit down with him...again. Make no bones about it, and convey very clearly and directly what they expect from him.

    I understand he can win 15-17, but he hurt this team in 2011 because they expected to use him in the rotation that year, and this year at the start of the year coming in and looking awful. At some point you have to put your foot down. The good thing is that most teams would give a lot in return for a LHP who has swing and miss stuff and is under control for 4+ years. We do have a few prospects starting to knock on the door for a spot in the rotation.

    I dont want to have to go down that road Promise, but Felix is going to be 26 at the end of Oct.. Thats not a kid anymore. He has great potential. TOTR potential. If he cant take it seriously, then let another kid who has the potential to win 15 games get a shot.

     




    I have a son thats 32 and still has not grown up!

     




    Lol, fair enough...But when a guy is making 500K and is costing his team wins and causing them headaches because hes not doing what he needs to be doing, the team has to do something. Maybe not trade him, but something. they cant just keep letting him get away with it.

    I certainly dont want to lose Doubie, but he just cant show up like he has the last 2 of 3 years. He suffered injuries due to it in 2011 and this year the same thing with a big loss of velocity for the first 2 months. All that caused the Sox to use pitchers that they would rather not have, and it cost him time on the DL.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Archer1. Show Archer1's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

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    I'd like to be on the record that I was NEVER a Doubront basher (under my previous BDC name before account complications forced me to create a new one).

    I said that young, cost controlled lefties that struck out 9 batters per 9 were not to be overlooked. Especially ones that are supposed to be filling your team's number five spot in the rotation.

    Here's to Doobie staying healthy and continuing to improve. Way to go kid!

     




    What was your former BDC name?

     



    Titletown11

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to Archer1's comment:

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    In response to Archer1's comment:

     

     

     

    I'd like to be on the record that I was NEVER a Doubront basher (under my previous BDC name before account complications forced me to create a new one).

    I said that young, cost controlled lefties that struck out 9 batters per 9 were not to be overlooked. Especially ones that are supposed to be filling your team's number five spot in the rotation.

    Here's to Doobie staying healthy and continuing to improve. Way to go kid!

     

     




    What was your former BDC name?

     

     

     



    Titletown11

     




    You got banned??? really? I never read anything you posted that was deserving of being banned. Some of these Mods are a bit over the top.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Archer1. Show Archer1's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    No no no...not banned. Just some login issues. I had closed the email account associated with the BDC login so it proved difficult to overcome. So I just made a new one.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to Archer1's comment:

    No no no...not banned. Just some login issues. I had closed the email account associated with the BDC login so it proved difficult to overcome. So I just made a new one.




    Oh, Ok...My bad.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from makonikyman. Show makonikyman's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

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    I know, I know....his whip is to high, as well as his era..and oh yeah, he's got motivational issues" as well as being hot headed and blah blah blah...the bottom line is this, he COMPETES, has 4 PLUS pitches ( unlike our resident no. Starter who has never had more than 2 and that is debate able today) is YOUNG and just needs how to become less predictable. Which is what we saw last night. They were and have been sitting on his cb when he got ahead and last nite he switched up and was throwing his cutter and fb more. telling you this kid can PITCH. When hefinally does put it together we won't need to go pay a boat load for a no 2....he's right there. ADMIT IT....you were WRONG....that's not a bad thing



    I keep bringing this post back to the forefront for a reason. To remind people...that this game is not easy. That it is about trial and error. And to not give up so easily on good young prospects who are trying to figure out how to be a pro. It sure ain't easy.....Doubrot today, Middlebrooks tomorrow....and next week Webster....and Boggy....and oh....lest we forget Iggy. I read over and over over again from posters who call for these young kids to be traded, cut, or dumped for a bag of balls....and that is exactly why you're sitting behind your computer typing your opinion ( while your on vacation nonetheless with your kids) to people who don't know what it's like to put the sweat in...the hard work. To fail and get back up off the matt and try again. To suceed when people told you you wouldn't.HERES TO YOU...FELIX DOUBRONT......PROVE EM WRONG....like you ve been doing your whole life no doubt...

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from irish-sox-fan. Show irish-sox-fan's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    in fairness ive never rated him that hioghly and hes been brilliant. But same goes for Lackey, hes pitched brilliantly this year. 

    "When I die Dublin will be written in my heart." - James Joyce

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from makonikyman. Show makonikyman's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to irish-sox-fan's comment:

    in fairness ive never rated him that hioghly and hes been brilliant. But same goes for Lackey, hes pitched brilliantly this year. 

    "When I die Dublin will be written in my heart." - James Joyce



    If I could go back, I would bring up posts defending Lackey against the same naysayers. Lackey took the ball and pitched with spaghetti as a ligament when the team asked him to, the freakin guy is a pit bull..has any sane person would have been in rehab on the dl. Lackey is an amazing competitor. And should not be overlooked. And...anyone who doubts me and my opinion of him need not go back to when he was pitching hurt and getting hiskicked. I was defending him. John Lackey.......DOES NOT NEED ME....TO DEFEND HIM.   

     

     Skibbereen boy here....bobby sands... 81

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    Lol, fair enough...But when a guy is making 500K and is costing his team wins and causing them headaches because hes not doing what he needs to be doing, the team has to do something. 

    Tonight was his 17th start, and only 1 of the 17 was truly bad.  In 11 of his starts, he has allowed 2 runs or less.

    He's certainly isn't giving me headaches, and he certainly isn't costing the team any wins.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    Huge game by Doubie. Big win to start the post ASG run.

    I am tickled pink that I have been wrong on Felix.

    Sox4ever

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    Lol, fair enough...But when a guy is making 500K and is costing his team wins and causing them headaches because hes not doing what he needs to be doing, the team has to do something. 

    Tonight was his 17th start, and only 1 of the 17 was truly bad.  In 11 of his starts, he has allowed 2 runs or less.

    He's certainly isn't giving me headaches, and he certainly isn't costing the team any wins.



    damn right. it was well worth having patience with Doobie. He has all the tools he just needed to put them all together and do that consistently. He has been doing that this season. Glad BC knows his stuff.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

    Lol, fair enough...But when a guy is making 500K and is costing his team wins and causing them headaches because hes not doing what he needs to be doing, the team has to do something. 

    Tonight was his 17th start, and only 1 of the 17 was truly bad.  In 11 of his starts, he has allowed 2 runs or less.

    He's certainly isn't giving me headaches, and he certainly isn't costing the team any wins.

     



    damn right. it was well worth having patience with Doobie. He has all the tools he just needed to put them all together and do that consistently. He has been doing that this season. Glad BC knows his stuff.

     



    The patience has certainly paid off for a growing significant sample size.

    I will add that had we traded him in a package for Justin Upton, we can't be sure we'd be any worse off now than we are.

    My suggested offer of Doubront and others for Brett Anderson would almost certainly have made us much worse this year. (Note: B Anderson >>>> used bag of balls)

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

     

     

    Lol, fair enough...But when a guy is making 500K and is costing his team wins and causing them headaches because hes not doing what he needs to be doing, the team has to do something. 

    Tonight was his 17th start, and only 1 of the 17 was truly bad.  In 11 of his starts, he has allowed 2 runs or less.

    He's certainly isn't giving me headaches, and he certainly isn't costing the team any wins.

     

     



    damn right. it was well worth having patience with Doobie. He has all the tools he just needed to put them all together and do that consistently. He has been doing that this season. Glad BC knows his stuff.

     

     

     



    The patience has certainly paid off for a growing significant sample size.

     

    I will add that had we traded him in a package for Justin Upton, we can't be sure we'd be any worse off now than we are.

    My suggested offer of Doubront and others for Brett Anderson would almost certainly have made us much worse this year. (Note: B Anderson >>>> used bag of balls)



    No certainty on anything, and he is too young and too small a sample, but imo, Doubront's been more valuable by himself than Upton.  Doubront's WAR is higher, and I don't that accounts properly for one bad shelling out of the BP in a lost cause.

    In his last 12 starts, his ERA is 2.59.  Over the same stretch, that's a better ERA than the best young SPs in BB, including Harvey, shelby Miller, Strasburg, etc.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

    Lol, fair enough...But when a guy is making 500K and is costing his team wins and causing them headaches because hes not doing what he needs to be doing, the team has to do something. 

    Tonight was his 17th start, and only 1 of the 17 was truly bad.  In 11 of his starts, he has allowed 2 runs or less.

    He's certainly isn't giving me headaches, and he certainly isn't costing the team any wins.

     




    So the team wasnt worried because of his shoulder and loss of velocity at the start of the season? So much they put him in the pen at one point and skipped a start or 2 from him in April? That he came into camp out of shape for the 2nd time?

     

    I agree hes looked very good this season and Im certainly a fan of his and have been supportive, but lets not push what happened twice coming into ST under the rug. It affected him at the start of this year and the team. The numbers dont tell the whole story.

    Just for the record. I wasnt one of the posters bashing and looking to trade him, but it annoys me when a young pitcher doesnt appear to take things seriously, follow an off season WO program and come into camp in shape and ready to go.

    Hes def stepped things up when we needed him this year, but the 1st month wasnt so great, for obvious reasons..

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    Might I also add that while Douby hasn't exactly become an innings eater he is constantly pitching into the 7th.

     

    To answer the original question:

     Half the haters are happy to be eating crow while the other half is silently, patiently waiting for him to crumble, get injured, or go through a slump. 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    Amazing what a young player can do once he gets a chance to play and not be sent to the minors back and forth like a yoyo!

    We have a young 3B in AAA who needs to come back and get his groove back and give us power at bats - instead we are once again making way for yet another S Drew injury sabbatical return and we will shift our best infielder to accomodate him....

    So wrong...S Drew has earned his bench status.....let him stay there

    As always - 100% correct!

     
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to georom4's comment:

    Amazing what a young player can do once he gets a chance to play and not be sent to the minors back and forth like a yoyo!

    We have a young 3B in AAA who needs to come back and get his groove back and give us power at bats - instead we are once again making way for yet another S Drew injury sabbatical return and we will shift our best infielder to accomodate him....

    So wrong...S Drew has earned his bench status.....let him stay there

    As always - 100% correct!
     



    Middlebrooks had the third base job to start the year.  He blew it for himself.

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to georom4's comment:

     

    Amazing what a young player can do once he gets a chance to play and not be sent to the minors back and forth like a yoyo!

    We have a young 3B in AAA who needs to come back and get his groove back and give us power at bats - instead we are once again making way for yet another S Drew injury sabbatical return and we will shift our best infielder to accomodate him....

    So wrong...S Drew has earned his bench status.....let him stay there

    As always - 100% correct!
     



    Middlebrooks had the third base job to start the year.  He blew it for himself.

     

     



    and Drew has done nothing to get it back three times now....and Drew is gone after this year and is six years older...

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to georom4's comment:

    and Drew has done nothing to get it back three times now....and Drew is gone after this year and is six years older...



    Drew's OPS for the year is .722, Middlebrooks's is .617.

    Since May 1, Drew's OPS is .782 and Middlebrooks's is .594.

    Drew has been the much better hitter, simple as that. 

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    So the team wasnt worried because of his shoulder and loss of velocity at the start of the season? So much they put him in the pen at one point and skipped a start or 2 from him in April? That he came into camp out of shape for the 2nd time?

    A dead arm phase is not at all unusual for SPs,  He missed one start.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to georom4's comment:

    Amazing what a young player can do once he gets a chance to play and not be sent to the minors back and forth like a yoyo!

    We have a young 3B in AAA who needs to come back and get his groove back and give us power at bats - instead we are once again making way for yet another S Drew injury sabbatical return and we will shift our best infielder to accomodate him....

    So wrong...S Drew has earned his bench status.....let him stay there

    As always - 100% correct!

     



    Middlebrooks lost his job for lack of pitch recognition.  That has to be learned, or re-learned.

    Doubront has had one bad start this year, and you're trying to compare him to someone who is batting .174 over his last 47 games, with a 54/7 K/W ratio over that time frame.

    I'd be very happy if he were able to work himself back to the team by 2014, though I am doubtful.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

    So the team wasnt worried because of his shoulder and loss of velocity at the start of the season? So much they put him in the pen at one point and skipped a start or 2 from him in April? That he came into camp out of shape for the 2nd time?

    A dead arm phase is not at all unusual for SPs,  He missed one start.

     




    I wasnt saying the 2 have anything to do with eachother, but obviously looking like he has twice now coming into ST might have something to do with it. its certainly a valid possibility. He lost velocity. It was discussed at length on here in April.

     

    Either way, my point was I dont like when players come into camp looking fat and out of shape 2 of 3 years. That is also a valid concern. It doesnt mean I dont like him or not aware of what hes done this year.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from makonikyman. Show makonikyman's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

    So the team wasnt worried because of his shoulder and loss of velocity at the start of the season? So much they put him in the pen at one point and skipped a start or 2 from him in April? That he came into camp out of shape for the 2nd time?

    A dead arm phase is not at all unusual for SPs,  He missed one start.

     




    I wasnt saying the 2 have anything to do with eachother, but obviously looking like he has twice now coming into ST might have something to do with it. its certainly a valid possibility. He lost velocity. It was discussed at length on here in April.

     

    Either way, my point was I dont like when players come into camp looking fat and out of shape 2 of 3 years. That is also a valid concern. It doesnt mean I dont like him or not aware of what hes done this year.



    South...you have to understand that these guys ( Doubront) are from 3rd world country's. They go home, eat, enjoy family, and sometimes have to learn tough lessons to mature. Jose Fernandez on the Marlins, whom I know pretty well came over from Cuba at 16...was a big prospect by 17/18 ballooned up to 260 lbs before his sn yr in HS. If it wasn't for some guys up in tampa who got him away from American fried foods and into the gym he would of never been a first round draft pick and future Cy young winner. Cut Felix some slack, he'll get it, and for you a moon to even say that he may have cost us the playoffs in 11 is just crazy. In 2011 he was an after thought rookie who didn't cost us a thing. 

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Where are ALL the Doubront basher's today?????

    Yes, it's so much harder for 3rd world players to mature.

    Huh?

    Sox4ever

     
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