Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest

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    Re: Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest

    I agree. I have never said I thought Wake or Vtek would be back anyway. 

    To me they are just 2 inexpensive choices out of many many options (some more pricey).
     
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    Re: Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest

    In Response to Re: Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest:
    In Response to Re: Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest : I don't want Miller or Bedard back... softy does. I'd rather not have Wake back, but I think we only will have about $8M to spend on about 5 positions before we get to the 6/7th starter. There may be some better options at $1M to $1.5M out there...or at least equal options. I'm fine with other options. My point is that Wake is just as good as about a 3rd of MLb starters each year, so getting him as our 6th starter is not going to keep us from winning. 
    Posted by moonslav59


    moon - Your $8M number is made with assumptions (Ortiz coming back, Youkilis not being traded, etc). 

    The Ortiz situation will be interesting as they offered him arbitration. I think it was a mistake, but so be it. Hopefully the Jays or O's sign him for $36/3 and he walks. I'd much rather have Cuddyer on the team and then fill in parts, and use your DH spot as a place to rest regulars. Flexibility.

    The same holds true for Wakefield. They don't need an innings eater and insurance. In addition, he taxes the catching staff. How many less unearned runs will there be without Wakefield? Those have to be taken into account, because regardless of who catches, there are going to be PB's.
     
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    Re: Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest

    In Response to Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest:
    Just wondering. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZz
    Posted by ADG

    I think Tek and Wake could still have some success if they were to play in the NL where few teams or players know their traits as well.

     
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    Re: Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest

    *They don't need an innings eater and insurance.* Unbelievable. Obviously ADG never watched the last few years of Sox baseball. The Sox needed innings eaters, they just didn't have any, and the majority of the 6-inning performances of the "younger" pitchers forced the pen, taxed the pen. And as for the less unearned runs argument, I guess you are ok with the more earned runs allowed by lesser pitchers or what we got every time Francona trotted out one of the young gun arms to throw a key start in the pennant race....I only agree with the flexibility of the DH spot. The idea that Wakefield clogs the pitching staff is another hater's rant, Tea Party antics at best. A pitcher who gets outs does not clog the staff or stunt the staff. Victor Martinez had no problem catching a knuckleball, neither did Tek in his few appearances with Wakefield this past season. Young catchers who are lazy like Salty somehow get off the hook because people can't believe that anyone can catch a knuckleball...it's hard, but not impossible by any stretch.
     
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    Re: Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest

     if these 3 guys go for between $2.5 & 4.5M per year each

    Bedard made 1M in 2011. Wastefield made nearly 4 million. Francis made 2M in 2011, and is coming off a bottom feeder metric. Hard to have a clue when you spend all your time posting snipets about Wastefield, and why the 3.75M paid for that 2011 pile should be followed up with another 2M for 2012.

    Every year, there are veteran bottom tier starters out there. A signifcant percentage will be able to provide middle to bottom tier innings. Wastefield is a zero percentage chance of doing anything but repeating laughing stock 43 and 44 year old pile of 2010 and 2011. Paying the 3.75M of welfare to Wastefield in 2011 to 2 or 3 bottom tier veteran starters in their thirties is the only way to go on the percentages above Zero!

    Encouraging signs that Wastefield ceremonial welfare frat boy roster disgrace is over in 2012:

    1. New GM responding to pitiful Wastefield agent begging, "if any role"

    2. Valentine will most certainly want any non-producing 40 plus holdover veterans from 2011 collapse replaced by players Valentine sees as a fit. Likely that Valentine will let Cherry know to forget about spending 3 or 4 million on Varitek and Wastefield taking roster spots.
     
    3. Valentine is a clean break, so it is very unlikely that 40 year old clubhouse lumps from the past will ever be on Valentine's roster for 2012. 

    4. Valentine is not going to want Wastefield and Varitek running the clubhouse based upon Union service time and past fan and veteran player popularity. 

    5. Ortiz produced in 2011 and earned a market offer. I doubt Valentine will do anything but endorse bringing Ortiz back for 2012. But if not, I fully endorse the fact that a manager who can't ship veteran players out on a rail is not going to be a very effective manager. Ortiz should be brought back on a 1 or 2 year market, which is not going to be 3 years and 30M. But 2011 necessitatied change, and Valentine is the new de facto Gm. If that means Ortiz goes, I don't recommend it but I don't have a major problem with it. The only problem I have is the de facto racist policy in Boston when it comes to gift contracts for old non-producing FA. But Valentine needs to be able to fire any player, including Ortiz.

    6. Valentine should be smart enough to grasp the value paradox InEpstein left in Ellsbury and Crawford. I hope he is smart enough to decide quickly on Crawford long term (current busted trade value) and dealing Ellsbury windfall 2011 final 2 years of arbitration away for parts to make a lost credibility clubhouse of 2010 and 2011 a thing of the past. Ellsbury is the #1 trade block part that can bring back missing part(s) short and long term. I doubt Valentine will see the point in paying Ellsbury's 16 to 20M ticket to FA, unless he thinks Crawford is a lost cause (doubtful).

    7. The fat Texas 130M boys (Beckett one year on and off routine is a disgrace) need to be all business, as Tek and Wastefield's frat bar is closed.
     
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    Re: Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest

    moon, given our meltdown last year by this team, and the fact that these veterans were part of the problem, why would you advocate keeping them under a new regime???? what did they do last year that warranted keeping them for yet another year even though they are in their forties???? you have never made less sense on any issue than this - your spouting of stale facts talking about wake as a 7th starter is pathetic....we dont need a 7th starter in his 40s that requires a caddy...and we dont need a captain who did not provide any leadership during the biggest collapse in sox history....just give it up - sometimes you are as single-minded and tone deaf as Softy...you guys deserve each other....
     
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    Re: Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest

     what did they do last year that warranted keeping them for yet another year even though they are in their forties???? you have never made less sense on any issue than this - your spouting of stale facts talking about wake as a 7th starter is pathetic....we dont need a 7th starter in his 40s that requires a caddy...and we dont need a captain who did not provide any leadership during the biggest collapse in sox history

    bump (compare team W/L 60% wins when Drew starts. According to Moonslob, offer 36 year old OF Drew a couple of million because can't find them from entire available young player pool in the entire world)
     
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    Re: Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest

    In Response to Re: Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest:
    In Response to Re: Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest : This comment makes no sense whatsoever. First of all, the Sox do have young farm system products in their rotation, such as Lester and Buchholz.  Secondly, these post-season examples all had worn out veterans in their rotation alongside the younger pitchers you focus on.  For example, Detroit used Brad Penny.  Is Brad Penny really a better option than Wakefield?  The Cardinals used Jake Westbrook and Kyle Lohse.     In fact, unlike Wakefield, all these guys were in the opening day rotation for their respective teams, and not pressed into the role by injuries.  I don't get how you can like the Brewers when they built their rotation the exact way you don't like.  They have a minor league journeyman (Chris Narveson), TWO recovering TJ arms (Marcum, Wolf), and a guy they unloaded the entire farm system for in Greinke.  The only young arm they "took a chance on" from their system is 29yo Yovanni Gallardo.   Only the Rays had a rotation of young farm system starting pitchers.  Even the Rangers had a very weird rotation built on former relief pitchers (Wilson, Ogando), a Japanese rehab (Lewis), and two younger pitchers, only one of whom they drafted (Holland).   All these teams have guys like Doubront, Bowden, Weiland and Tazawa in their system, and all of them chose not to use these type of pitchers as starters.  How many starts did Eric Hurley make for the Rangers this past year?  Or Mark Rogers for the Brewers? And then I really don’t get why we need to bring up the teams that didn’t make the playoffs using this strategy.  Once you do that, you are pointing out that it actually isn’t a key to success.  So – why do it? I’m not saying Wakefield needs to come back, but I don’t see why people think his 5.00+ ERA was so much worse than Kyle Weiland and his 6.00+ ERA, coupled with his complete inability to last 5 full innings.   And I know Wakefield is 45 and not getting younger, let’s not pretend Weiland is 22 and can only get better.  He’ll be 26 next year, and this might be as good as he gets.  (And 45 is like 35 in knuckleballer years.) And for every fan who screams “give the kids a chance”, what exactly do you recommend as Plan B if/when the kids don’t work out?  If they don’t work out – which is a very realistic possibility – then  they make it tougher to trade for a quality replacement.  So if these 4 guys all fail or get hurt, then what?  Trying more and more kids, coupled with luck and wishful thinking?  Or is Plan B simply to wait until 2013 and then go sign more veteran help at top dollar?  We can all wait, right? Hint: The answer actually is in the pitching depth.  And that depth does come from getting one or two versatile arms like Wakefield who can fill in as needed.  Whether or not it is Wakefield himself is not important, but the Sox – and every team – are going to go through 7 to 10 SPs (or more) next year, and counting on Weiland, Doubront, Tazawa and Bowden as four of them is a receipe for disaster. Especially since none of these guys except maybe Doubront should ever be a starter again.  This is a middle relief corps.
    Posted by notin

    I disagree with you about these young Red Sox pitchers are middle relief corps. How old is Wilson.  He was drafted in early 2000's as a starting pitcher before moving to bullpen and then back as a starting pitcher.  So therefore, Texas kept giving him bunch of chances until he finally proven himself that he belong to the Texas rotation in the last two years.  If Wilson is part of Boston's organization at the same time Theo is the GM, Wilson will  never be call up cuz Theo kept signing short term starting pitchers every year where he blocked most young pitchers from moving up to the major league level especially in the last three years.  Therefore, give Weiland, Bowen, Droubmont and Tazwaza a chance.  
     
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    Re: Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest

    I disagree with you about these young Red Sox pitchers are middle relief corps. How old is Wilson. He was drafted in early 2000's as a starting pitcher before moving to bullpen and then back as a starting pitcher. So therefore, Texas kept giving him bunch of chances until he finally proven himself that he belong to the Texas rotation in the last two years. If Wilson is part of Boston's organization at the same time Theo is the GM, Wilson will never be call up cuz Theo kept signing short term starting pitchers every year where he blocked most young pitchers from moving up to the major league level especially in the last three years. Therefore, give Weiland, Bowen, Droubmont sic and Tazwaza a chance.

    100% correct.

    The most pitiful bugaboo in Red Sox history is the standard line about how essential it is to resign Wastefield because the farm and other cast off veterans under 40 can't provide the quality innings eating of the great 5 plus ERA Wastefield. Every year, fortune on Lackey, Wastefield welfare for 3 or 4 million, and none of the up and down tweener young pitchers ever gets several months in the rotation on a regular schedule. It is always that fat pile out there, and talk about how he just passed total innings for Red Sox pitcher so ignore grand slam and loss of game during Timmy T-Ball start.

    Change the narrative and show more patience and lower expectations with respect to farm prospects who should go up and down a few times to get more long meaningful looks and time for one or two to mature into a marginal MLB bottom tier starter. End Wastefield ceremonial mascot tour. All of those innings should be invested in Doubrant, Weiland, Wilson, Tazawa et al. 

    1 to 2M contract offers and minor league contract offers to outcast veterns under the age of 45 should be the way to fill out depth for starters for 2012. 2 or 3 1M veteran contracts and minor league deals is the way to go for 2012.

    Because of market, much better value to sign a couple of 1 year pen arms and move Aceves to bottom of rotation. 

    Beckett
    Lester
    Buch
    Aceves
    Doubrant or spring training ready farm arm to start year
    2 or 3 one year low cost vets for remaining depth (not Wastefield)

    Also, if the Red Sox can trade blocked prospects and Lowrie and Ellsbury they might  be able to net a decent young middle to lower tier starter plus a solid young RH OF bat.   
     
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    Re: Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest

    You give the job to the kids in camp and ST and sign 2 or 3 under 40 vets to minor league and 1 to 2 plus incentives deals as insurance. That's what you do. The idea is to invest time and patience in young pitchers and make them compete to get and retain MLB active roster spot, not pretend that Wastefield needs to be paid millions and hold up a couple of weeks.

    Just admit that you want Wastefield carted out in a wheelchair with a 5 or 6 ERA, just so you can say "that's my boy Timmy, 201 wins and counting and ignore the loss and grand slam he just gave up because he just broke Red Sox team total innings record)

    Bring back Yaz and don't pretend that Reddick or Kalish are ready yet.
     
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    Re: Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest

    Because of market, much better value to sign a couple of 1 year pen arms and move Aceves to bottom of rotation. 

    Beckett
    Lester
    Buch
    Aceves
    Doubrant or spring training ready farm arm to start year
    2 or 3 one year low cost vets for remaining depth (not Wastefield)

    1) We already lost our closer, and now you want to move one of our best pen arms to a position he has a record of doing worse.  There are some decent pen arms out there, but they wont be cheap, and the good ones won't be for one year. You keep speaking in vague teminology, and when you do get specific, like with signing "the Wang" types  for $4M, you are way off the monetary mark.

    Just like this year, when you claimed we could pluck a sub.5.00 ERA pitcher from the minors easily, you never name names. Miller and Weiland failed badly. Tazawa and Doubront were hurt. Sure, one of these kids might do well next year, but no way am I happy counting on any one of them being sub 5.00 in 2012... and go about 6 innings for over 20 starts. Who are the "spring training ready farm arms" you speak of? 

    We might get lucky like the Yanks did with Colon and Garcia, but those kind of starters are very hard to project and get right. I hope we find one, but the odds are stacked against it.
     
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    Re: Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest

    if these 3 guys go for between $2.5 & 4.5M per year each

    Bedard made 1M in 2011. Wastefield made nearly 4 million. Francis made 2M in 2011, and is coming off a bottom feeder metric. Hard to have a clue when you spend all your time posting snipets about Wastefield, and why the 3.75M paid for that 2011 pile should be followed up with another 2M for 2012.

    What di Wang make last year?
    Answer: $1M 
    What did he sign for this year?
    Answer: $4M

    He had a 9.34 ERA in 2009, missed 2010, and pitched only 11 starts in 2011 with a 4.40 ERA in the NL.

    Bedard, Francis and others have equal or better records than Wang. I stand by my $2.5-4.5M projections. Unlike you, I will not change what I projected after the fact like you did with mauer and AGon, and BHall, and... (You confuse what you think "union slugs" should get paid for what they actually will make. You say "We should "sign the Wangs for $1M", then they saign for $4M and do well, and you later say...see "I told you we should have signed him", but if they dio poorly, you have yourself covered by then saying "see, I told you he was only worth $1M".)

     Try making a realistic offer for once and stick to it.  You've been all over the map on Papi.

    (BTW: You spend more time posting the same old tired 'snipets" about Wake and VTek than anyone on this board.) 


     
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    Re: Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest

    We're talking about getting Wake for under 4 mil, probabaly 3 mil, so what is the harm?

    You have zero credibility. Wastefield has zero market for more than a minor league contract to try and make a major league roster.
     
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    Re: Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest

    Bedard, Francis and others have equal or better records than Wang. I stand by my $2.5-4.5M projections. Unlike you, I will not change what I projected

    I don't change what I project, you do that with your bird brain.

    Try doing something more realistic than sign Wastefield for 1.5 million. No team will offer Wastefield 1.5M, the man is a 45 year old joke. You are delusional. Bedard got 1M last year, and you think Timmy T-Ball will require 1.5M? You really want that pile bad, dont you.

    Using Wang 2012 for the rest of the veteran rejects does not mean bidding starts at 4M. Pitching is not about records, it's about quality innings. You are talking about the same GM who paid a fire me later cost for Werth. 

    I've been on the same map on Ortiz since day one. You have been all over the map with your latest nonsense up to 30M guaranteed.
     
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    Re: Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest

    This is the issue with irrational, angry people like you.

    No, the issue is PC drones like you who call people angry and irrational. Barney Fwank is angry and irrational, and so is Barry Obama.
     
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    Re: Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest

    You keep speaking in vague teminology

    No, Moonslob, it is you who just say offer Wastefield 1.5M and "we need starting pitching".

    I provided details on an entire 40 man roster and specific names and amounts to offer as FA. You read every comment I make and claim to put me on ignore. If you haven't noticed, your circle jerk audience is quite small. 

    It is not realistic to offer 1.5M to a 45 year old fat laughing stock who will get nothing more than a minor league spring training contract to tryout for a MLB contract roster spot.

    Wastefield didn't just fail badly, like usual, he was a disgrace and is now in begging hands and knees mode. Despite no regular schedule starter time for any length of time, Miller was quite decent on the road. He is not worth more than 1M offer plus incentives, but he goes ahead of parasite Wastefield. And Weiland was simply a jerked around spot starter with few innings outside minors. See Buch, not that Weiland will end up like Buch. Doubrant was quite decent 2010.


    But Moonslob, it isn't about whether the young guys deliver in 2012. The Red Sox can sign 2 or 3 under 40 veterans to MLB and minor league contracts for what Timmy T-Ball made in 2011. 2 can be had for 2 to 3M plus incentives. Only you and a few other saps want to cling to pridefully watching Timmy T-Ball chase #201 for the Red Sox.

    Depth needs to be farm hands Doubrant, Weiland, Wilson and Tazawa along with 2 or 3 Bedard, Francis, Harden, Duchscherer, Webb types to mix of major league and minor league contracts.


    Aceves is more valuable as a starter, as FA middle pen arms for 1 year are buyer's market. Aceves was the Red Sox 2nd best performing pitcher in 2011. Had he started in last half of 2011, Red Sox are in playoffs. Aceves has 9 spot starts over years, so metrics of career ERA near 4 and WHIP as starter from that are meaningless. Aceves WHIP career is near 1. His record,which you love to give, is 24-0. Wastefield over Aceves for 2011, at anytime in rotation, was a firing offense for the departed InEpstein.  Ryan approach works, not InEpstein pamper for 5 or 6 innings and time off and sign Wastefield every year and prima donnas FA. Red Sox need frequent into the 8th inning starts in 2012, from Beckett, Lester, Buch and one other starter. Market for value starters is empty for a reason, and Red Sox offense is not good enough to face regular early deficits. A rested pen is an adequate pen. 

    2 or 3 cheap vets under 45 and the farm needs to be the starter depth for 2012. Sign a couple of one year pen arm deals.

    The fact that the Red Sox will be on the hook for about 30M and have no RH quality OF'er is about as pathetic and incompentent as it gets. Well, short of your 30M plus offer to Adam Dunn, who is also a star lefty. 
     
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    Re: Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest

    Another repetitive and boring thread. Who started the thread last February that AGon would never sign the contract? That thread went on for two months and wasted the time and effort of many in the forum.

     
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    Re: Where are all the teams banging on Tim Wakefield's Door? A "15 game winner" should garner some interest

    This RidingWithTheKing character has a lot of anger and has an apparent unhealthy obsession with Wakerfield sic and Varitek. 3 or 4M on Wastefield is not cheap, and make sure my federal government disapproves greasy fries are up on time!
     
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