Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?

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    Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?

    Just ahead of omar minaya........
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from sindarin-erebor. Show sindarin-erebor's posts

    Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?

    Without question Theo has made several bad free agent signings as have been discussed over and over on this forum. However two World Series victories, the squashing of "The Curse", the rebuilding of the farm system to one of the best in the majors, the drafting of several good players overshadow the poor free agent signings. To answer the thread's question, IMO he would rank at around 75-80% relative to all other GM's. Would like to see specific rationale for why other posters see more than six GMs out there who are better. As avid Red Sox fans and the few Red Sox haters/Yankees fans on this forum the tendancy is to bash Theo, Tito and John Henry when things don't work out. I get that. Let's hear the rationale for which GMs are better. 
     
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    Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?

    LOL....the red flops do not have one of the best farm systems in the majors...they are not even ranked in the top ten. Get a clue.
     
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    Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?

    A bigger question might be, is it even possible to compare MLB GM's to each other when there are such disparities in payroll?  Most people seem to agree that Billy Beane of the A's, Bill Smith of the Twins and Andrew Friedman of the Rays are among the best GM's because they have gotten good results with smaller payrolls.  But none of them have brought home the big prize.  If they had bigger payrolls and were in a position to sign big-name free agents, is there any reason to believe they'd have a higher success rate than Epstein?  The free agent game seems to be a low-percentage game, generally speaking.  There have been a lot more big busts than good-value signings.
     
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    Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?

    In Response to Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?:
    [QUOTE]LOL....the red flops do not have one of the best farm systems in the majors...they are not even ranked in the top ten. Get a clue.
    Posted by --The---Babe----[/QUOTE]

    As usual, you know nothing.  Just because they are not ranked in the top 10 right now doesn't mean they don't have a good farm system.  He rebuilt the system from scratch...scouting, facilities, Latin American outreach, etc.  He used some really good chips to secure Gonzalez, too.  I believe that is what the poster was speaking of.  The Yanks have done a good job of this also and have nice players in their system.  Everything does not have to be "you suk" or "we're the best".  Please grow up.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?

    It is really kind of impossible to accurately rank GMs in a sport that has different rules in it's two leagues, uneven payroll, and unbalanced divisions.

    If you are GM of San Francisco and you win a World Series , you've done pretty good. If you are Boston and you have won two World Series in 8 years , not bad. If you are GM of the Yankees and you go over ten years winning only one World Series, you are doing poorly.If you are Kansas City and you've built a farm system to be envied, it won't really matter as you have zero chance of keeping all your talent for more than a handful of seasons. If you are Detroit and you spend lots of $$$ on big names and lose your division to Minnesota, you should quit.

    You can do comparisons such as these, but to "rank" GMs numerically, is virtually impossible.
     
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    Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?

    In Response to Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?:
    [QUOTE]The designation of Mike Cameron and the poor season from Carl Crawford, Bobby Jenks and John Lackey have me wondering - what's Theo's grade as GM with the Red Sox? There's a pretty long list of failures now to go with the two rings. Can we grade him any higher than "C?" I'm not so sure he's any better than average...
    Posted by davetheknave[/QUOTE]

    Theo has made his share of mistakes but he has brought us two WC's.  He also gets a nod as one of the best GM in baseball for developing and sustaining a great farm system.  Players like Ells, Dustin, Youk, Lowrie, Buchholz, Lester, Bard, Reddick, Pap who have all been a part of the team success.

    It's been fun not only watching these kids and discussing their future but having them all make our major league roster says it all.
     
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    Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?

    In Response to Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?:
    [QUOTE]LOL....the red flops do not have one of the best farm systems in the majors...they are not even ranked in the top ten. Get a clue.
    Posted by --The---Babe----[/QUOTE]
    Is it even possible that you answer the thread's question, or any thread's question for that matter without making inane, inaccurate, attacking, anti-Red Sox statement(s)? I realize that is a rhetorical question.
     
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    Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?

    When you have the capacity to take greater risks and not be crippled by them, you tend to take those risks in order to maintain a high level of play.

    Let's take Cameron as an example. Last year a smaller market team would have to prematurely promote a minor leaguer like Kalish or Reddick and hope for the best. The RS economic circumstances allowed Epstein to take a chance with an older higher paid player while Reddick and Kalish continued to develop.

    As far as the $$$ hit, it is certainly nothing to sneeze at but a fraction of the hit that Jason Bay is for the Mets right now. It was a band-aid that that the RS could afford to take a chance on while avoiding a guy who at this point thinks he can't hit because he has blue eyes.

    In general baseball operations people project future performance and the measurements are done with blunt instruments since there is no crystal ball. Big market GMs get to sign more high $$$ contracts so their mistakes have great visibility than when another GM calls up the wrong prospect or brings them up too sooner and they wash out. Example in Anaheim nobody really talks about Brandon Wood's failures but nobody forgets Maddux Jr.'s contract.

    This off season before the RS made their moves a poll of Epstein's peers rated him among the best, a guy they believed had advantages ($$$) but would do well with a lower budget. 

     
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    Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?

    bobbysu, I agree with you.  Crawford will be a big part of the successes of this team. He is well worth the money.
     
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    In Response to Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?:
    [QUOTE]The loss of Crawford was big, this team is way more scarier with him on the field than off it. You'll see when he comes back. I still think this was a good signing.
    Posted by bobbysu[/QUOTE]

    But is any ficitional monster "more scarier" than me?
     
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    Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?

    the rebuilding of the farm system to one of the best in the majors----
    sindarin-erebor

    the red flops do not have one of the best farm systems in the majors---
    the babe

    As usual, you know nothing...Everything does not have to be "you suk" or "we're the best"-----
    jimfromflorida
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Although I think Babe is a tool sometimes, you're right, Jim. Everything doesn't always have to be, "We're the best". Babe is taking the same position. Good to see you both agree on something. 
     
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    Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?

    In Response to Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?:
    [QUOTE]It is really kind of impossible to accurately rank GMs in a sport that has different rules in it's two leagues, uneven payroll, and unbalanced divisions. If you are GM of San Francisco and you win a World Series , you've done pretty good. If you are Boston and you have won two World Series in 8 years , not bad. If you are GM of the Yankees and you go over ten years winning only one World Series, you are doing poorly.If you are Kansas City and you've built a farm system to be envied, it won't really matter as you have zero chance of keeping all your talent for more than a handful of seasons. If you are Detroit and you spend lots of $$$ on big names and lose your division to Minnesota, you should quit. You can do comparisons such as these, but to "rank" GMs numerically, is virtually impossible.
    Posted by ZILLAGOD[/QUOTE] just to clear up some math -- if you win a world series in october of 2000 (yanks v mets) and then win another in october of 2009  (yanks v phillies)-- then you did not go over 10 years without a ring --- in fact you're not even going over 9 years. I think the confusion came with all that "team of the decade" nonsense a year a half ago.
     
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    Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?

    In Response to Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?:
    [QUOTE]When you have the capacity to take greater risks and not be crippled by them, you tend to take those risks in order to maintain a high level of play. Let's take Cameron as an example. Last year a smaller market team would have to prematurely promote a minor leaguer like Kalish or Reddick and hope for the best. The RS economic circumstances allowed Epstein to take a chance with an older higher paid player while Reddick and Kalish continued to develop. As far as the $$$ hit, it is certainly nothing to sneeze at but a fraction of the hit that Jason Bay is for the Mets right now. It was a band-aid that that the RS could afford to take a chance on while avoiding a guy who at this point thinks he can't hit because he has blue eyes. In general baseball operations people project future performance and the measurements are done with blunt instruments since there is no crystal ball. Big market GMs get to sign more high $$$ contracts so their mistakes have great visibility than when another GM calls up the wrong prospect or brings them up too sooner and they wash out. Example in Anaheim nobody really talks about Brandon Wood's failures but nobody forgets Maddux Jr.'s contract. This off season before the RS made their moves a poll of Epstein's peers rated him among the best, a guy they believed had advantages ($$$) but would do well with a lower budget. 
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    As usual, you nailed it katz.  If there were a way to assess GMs and organizations it would be best to compare the Red Sox with teams of similar market and potential market sizes and payroll.  Over the last several seasons, during the Henry reign with Theo at GM, that would be the Mets, Phillie, the Angels, Dodgers, and Cubs.  Among that group, the Red Sox have fared the best along with Phillie, with the Angels not far behind.   
     
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    Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?

    In Response to Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?:
    [QUOTE]It is really kind of impossible to accurately rank GMs in a sport that has different rules in it's two leagues, uneven payroll, and unbalanced divisions. If you are GM of San Francisco and you win a World Series , you've done pretty good. If you are Boston and you have won two World Series in 8 years , not bad. If you are GM of the Yankees and you go over ten years winning only one World Series, you are doing poorly.If you are Kansas City and you've built a farm system to be envied, it won't really matter as you have zero chance of keeping all your talent for more than a handful of seasons. If you are Detroit and you spend lots of $$$ on big names and lose your division to Minnesota, you should quit. You can do comparisons such as these, but to "rank" GMs numerically, is virtually impossible.
    Posted by ZILLAGOD[/QUOTE]

    Good post, Zill, except I disagree with you about the Royals.  From what I've heard, they might be finally building a decent team there, but their performance over the past decade is atrocious and inexcusable when you can compare them with Tampa (of late) who manage to compete at a high level in the AL East of all places.  I'm not saying it's easy to consistently field a decent team with a small budget, but if you parlay your losses into good drafting and player development, you should be able to string together a few good years while you still have control of your players.  There is an incentive for some organizations to trim their payrolls and profit through revenue sharing and not bother to push for the most.   
     
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    Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?

    Theo has a bigger budget than most GMs and that of course give him an advantage, but it is also why he will make some free agent signing busts, becuase his team can afford to pay a little more and take more chances...all in all he has made many more good personnel decisions than bad ones, when you inlcude guys he signed....guys he let go.....and trades he has made and for a Sox fan of 45 years....those 2 WS titles give him wide latittude as far as I am concerned.

     
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    Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?

    In Response to Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers? : As usual, you know nothing.  Just because they are not ranked in the top 10 right now doesn't mean they don't have a good farm system.  He rebuilt the system from scratch...scouting, facilities, Latin American outreach, etc.  He used some really good chips to secure Gonzalez, too.  I believe that is what the poster was speaking of.  The Yanks have done a good job of this also and have nice players in their system.  Everything does not have to be "you suk" or "we're the best".  Please grow up.
    Posted by jimdavis[/QUOTE]

    LOL...If they are not ranked in the top ten that DOES mean that they don't have one of the "Best" farm systems. Pretty simple.

     
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    Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?

    Davetheknave is an obvious "concern troll". At least Babe admits to it.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from ---The-Babe---. Show ---The-Babe---'s posts

    Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?

    In Response to Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?:
    [QUOTE]Davetheknave is an obvious "concern troll". At least Babe admits to it.
    Posted by Your-Echo[/QUOTE]

    easy there kim....err...I mean....pike.

    There was nothing trolling about my statement. Just pointing out that they don't have one of the best farm systems in the majors, that's all.
     
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    Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?

    In Response to Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?:
    [QUOTE]LOL....the red flops do not have one of the best farm systems in the majors...they are not even ranked in the top ten. Get a clue.
    Posted by --The---Babe----[/QUOTE]

    That's absurd, of course they do.  They just traded 3 top prospects over the winter for Gonzalez.  There are ebbs and flows in a farm system.  A farm system that has delivered Bard, Pedroia, Papelbon, Youkilis, Ellsbury, Buchholz, Lester, Lowrie and Reddick....plus, effectively, Gonzalez and Beckett....doesn't become a bad system overnight when prospects are promoted or traded.  The Sox farm system is outstanding, one of the best....unless one has a myopic view of only the current crop of relatively mature minor leaguers.
     
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    Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?

    In Response to Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers? : That's absurd, of course they do.  They just traded 3 top prospects over the winter for Gonzalez.  There are ebbs and flows in a farm system.  A farm system that has delivered Bard, Pedroia, Papelbon, Youkilis, Ellsbury, Buchholz, Lester, Lowrie and Reddick....plus, effectively, Gonzalez and Beckett....doesn't become a bad system overnight when prospects are promoted or traded.  The Sox farm system is outstanding, one of the best....unless one has a myopic view of only the current crop of relatively mature minor leaguers.
    Posted by SonicsMonksLyresVicars[/QUOTE]

    Yes it was strong at one time but at the present moment it's pretty barren.

     
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    Re: Where does Theo Epstein rank among MLB general managers?

    Epstein has certainly been good for this organization. He's made his share of blunders with free agents, but that's how free agency goes. Right now he's 2 for 8 for World Champs, and 6 for 8 with making the playoffs, regardless of payroll, impressive.

    For those in call out payroll. The Red Sox are within 20% increased payroll of 4 teams. This is $40,000,000, the payroll of some small teams, or the payroll difference between the Yankees and the Red Sox. Which teams are those? LAA (138,000,000), the White Sox (129,000,000), the Cubs (126,000,000), the Mets (120,000,000). The difference between the Sox and say, the Cubs or Mets is much, much more noticable than the difference between the Sox and the Yanks. Theo's used his money well, face it.

    People who talk about Payroll often just use it as an end all be all excuse for team success. Why where the Giants a surprise last year? They're payroll is 8th in baseball, at 117.7 million. Why? "BECUZ THEY AREN'T THE SOX OR YANKS THEY SPEND SOOOOO MUCH MORE THAN EVERYONE ELSE!"

    News flash, the Phils have overtaken the Sox in terms of Payroll, (172,000,000). Most people who discredit the Sox with payroll even get the rounded number wrong. Many posters here talk about how the "170 mil sox aren't good enough". We're the 160 mil sox. Losers.
     
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