Where is Valentine's toughness?

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    Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?

    Joe, I actually agree with you about the post where you say why did LL blow this thing up over 1 month. It was a sort of a Camelot these past 9 years. The team either won (2 WS titles), played well enough for postseason (2003 to 2009), or even was in contention to the very last game last year. I never had a problem with Tito except I was disturbed at his last few years of lineup giveaways--post Manny. I had problems with Theo, I could have seen him go and have Tito stay, to be honest. But the bottom line on Youkilis is that he sulked when he should have been hammering the ball--the way he did when he first hit ChiTown--and the fact was that Middlebrooks took his job away--now you can say he deserved better than the one quote that I believe BV was incredibly off-base and ill-timed at on his questioning Youks' when he was scuffling. But BC had to get trade Youks, he had no choice. DH and 1b were occupied, thank you, by 2 perennial All-Stars. He had become an injury-prone player as a 3b. For whatever reason, BV is not getting the best out of some of his best players--why? I have no idea. They are professionals, and they need to pitch and hit and hit for power..If they all did their jobs, Sox would be 10 games over .500 easily.
     
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    Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?

    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?:
    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness? : Oh, that's easy.  Be a little smarter. He stabbed Youk in the back because when he returned from his last injury, he went 0-12.   Youk was an intense competitor who always gave 100%  That's why he got skewered.  Now Youk is playing AS caliber 3B for the WS, just like he did for us last year.  Because he had 3 bad games to start the season. Had he called out Beckett instead, fairly or unfairly, he'd have the majority of the fans behind him. You know, managers like Martin and Williams never had these issues, and they were twice as tough.  It's more than ranting for ranting's sake.
    Posted by Joebreidey

    Joebreidey still has the hots for Tito; he has not liked Valentine since Day One.

     
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    Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?

    " Your advice to the man?"

    In short: a little more (ball)sack please. I was under the impression with Bobby's resume and his well paid history that he would not feel a need to please his higher ups in this go around. I thought he would be more stubborn a la Parcells. But it seems he is torn between being outspoken, being a kissbutt company man, and being a colorful character. So far it hasn't been a good mix. (To be fair I think he's done great work with the bullpen in particular). 

    So yeah, I'm disappointed he wasn't more of a bring the hammer old school guy. I knew he'd be bad at diplomacy (example the Youk thing), but I didn't know he'd be apologizing all over himself every time someone got offended. Sure, blame owners, blame mangement for their dictates but Bobby was supposed to be strong enough to stand up to that. when needed. 

    That was certainly portrayed that way around here. 

    I think you will see this kind of reaction against here because Bobby V got a lot of "I love this guy!" support in this forum early in the year when he had accomplished nothing, whereas Francona was tarred and feathered last season in here by many. So now those of us who thought the anti-Francona reaction was overboard are looking to see some of the same criticisms applied to Bobby V. And we've seen some of it but so far we see more folks who are still charmed by his colorful character and baseball resume. He really hasn't been that good yet, though this season is far from his fault. I'll wait and see how it wraps up but I sure don't see a genius in the dugout. 
     
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    Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?

    Neither do I, Trollster. And I do think there are now a lot of posters who understand that maybe, just maybe, managing the fishbowl of the Sox took a special kind of person who could handle both the media, the clubhouse and deflect the attention away from the players day to day the way Tito did. Or maybe they got so tired of his act--marathon not a sprint attitude, won't go for the division title, inexplicable mandatory rests (or what BV is doing exactly like Tito of late), they welcomed anything OTHER THAN TITO. Either way, the team is now under .500 and it's nearing the 100 game mark. And because the AL is the new league of mediocrity, the WC is still within reach. cough. CC let one roll under his glove and K'd twice tonight--let the CC bashwagon restart its engine. 
     
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    Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?

    This is one thing that I am observing or have observed, and believe me I don't know much about insomnia other than a few bouts of it. But BV looks like the most tired man on Earth. I think he regrets taking the job and I think he's seen that the game has really passed him by. It's not just about making pitching moves and chess moves during a game, it's about coddling certain guys, kicking other guys in the butt, and deflecting negative stories away from his star players. Hell, he has helped ignite some of the negativity. BV is tired. He needs a mandatory rest. I think he should take a week off and let Royster run the team. I'm not kidding. He's tired. It's time to rest BV.
     
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    Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?

    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?:
    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness? : I didn't ask you to speak for the board, just for yourself. Pray tell, what are some of his "excuses" for not being tough -- from his mouth, please. Not for his decisions. For "not being tough."   As in, "I'm not tough on players because...."
    Posted by expitch

    You gave him excuses for not being tough.  Read your own comment.  What excuses did you think I was talking about?  I say he hasn't been tough, you come up with two excuses, I mention said excuses and then you go "what excuses?  It's not very valuable having conversations with you at times.  

    When he does call them out, MILDLY and perhaps correctly, he gets no support from the FO. And he gets eviscerated on the board for "picking fights" with players.  









     
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    Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?

    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?:
    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness? : Joebreidey still has the hots for Tito; he has not liked Valentine since Day One.
    Posted by EnchiladaT
    Since the Creation, actually.

     
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    Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?

    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?:
    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness? : You gave him excuses for not being tough.  Read your own comment.  What excuses did you think I was talking about?  I say he hasn't been tough, you come up with two excuses, I mention said excuses and then you go "what excuses?  It's not very valuable having conversations with you at times.   When he does call them out, MILDLY and perhaps correctly, he gets no support from the FO. And he gets eviscerated on the board for "picking fights" with players.  
    Posted by snakeoil123
    BV has given no excuses for not being tough. I understood you to mean that HE has made excuses. If not, if you meant others are making excuses, sorry.
    One man's excuses can be another man's reasons. It can depend upon point of view, knowledge of a situation, etc.
    The solution is simple. Don't converse with  me.


     
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    Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?

    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?:
    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness? : BV has given no excuses for not being tough. I understood you to mean that HE has made excuses. If not, if you meant others are making excuses, sorry. One man's excuses can be another man's reasons. It can depend upon point of view, knowledge of a situation, etc. The solution is simple. Don't converse with  me.
    Posted by expitch

    You made the excuse.  Not Bobby V.  "The front office doesn't have his back".

    I don't ignore anyone that takes the time to comment back to me.  Even if it is usually pointless.

     
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    Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?

    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness? : You made the excuse.  Not Bobby V.  "The front office doesn't have his back". I don't ignore anyone that takes the time to comment back to me.  Even if it is usually pointless.
    Posted by snakeoil123[/QUOTE
    I retract my apology. You DID attribute the excuses directly to BV: "I thought this thread was about his toughness. Not about what his ( emphasis mine ) excuses are for not being tough. He's ( emphasis mine ) got plenty of those." If they are his excuses, they didn't come from other people. "His" is a possessive pronoun. He owns what "he's got." They are his and no one else's.
    Now that what you said in clear direct English, I repeat my question. What excuses has he made. Remember, the subject is EXCUSES.
    "Usually." Hmm. Are you saying that most ( usually ) responses to you by posters are pointless? Or only mine? Including this one, which points out in your own words where you located BV's excuses: with him.  

     
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    Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?

    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?:
    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness? : Spoiled is one way to put it.
    Posted by expitch


    Yes, I am spoiled.  I thought I had included that in one of my posts.  I'm also a sore loser if I forgot to add that.
     
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    Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?

    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?:
    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness? : Joe prefers to think things like BV "stabbed Youk in the back." Or BV "picks fights." That keeps everything one-dimensional and neat in his head. Really in his gut, since there is no evidence that he's thought this subject through. It's another occasion to ride his nasty hobby-horse. And he advises BV to "get smarter." Unintentional irony.
    Posted by expitch


    I keep asking you what drove BV to make his decision after 3 games that Youk had lost it.
     
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    Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?

    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?:
    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness? : Joebreidey still has the hots for Tito; he has not liked Valentine since Day One.
    Posted by EnchiladaT


    I saw enough of him in NY to know he is a weak manager.  And he is far worse than I expected in Boston.
     
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    Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?

    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?:
    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness? : I read somewhere a couple days ago that Valentine has apparently told confidants he wishes he had stayed at ESPN. Sorry I don't have a link to that....
    Posted by davetheknave


    He was a lousy announcer, but at least there he was among other lousy announcers.
     
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    Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?

    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?:
    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness? :
    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness? : You made the excuse.  Not Bobby V.  "The front office doesn't have his back". I don't ignore anyone that takes the time to comment back to me.  Even if it is usually pointless. Posted by snakeoil123[/QUOTE I retract my apology. You DID attribute the excuses directly to BV: "I thought this thread was about his toughness. Not about what  his ( emphasis mine ) excuses are for not being tough. He's ( emphasis mine ) got plenty of those." If they are his excuses, they didn't come from other people. "His" is a possessive pronoun. He owns what "he's got." They are his and no one else's. Now that what you said in clear direct English, I repeat my question. What excuses has he made. Remember, the subject is EXCUSES. "Usually." Hmm. Are you saying that most ( usually ) responses to you by posters are pointless? Or only mine? Including this one, which points out in your own words where you located BV's excuses: with him.  
    Posted by expitch

    I repeat my answer.  He hasn't made any.  You did.  You are kind of an odd guy to just not take me at my word that I was referring to your comment.  This board isn't a big enough deal for me to get all worked up about and try to squirm out of something I said.

    You get pretty worked up though.

    Total burn on the possessive pronoun thing though.  Wow is my face red.









     
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    Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?

    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?:
    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness? : I repeat my answer.  He hasn't made any.  You did.  You are kind of an odd guy to just not take me at my word that I was referring to your comment.  This board isn't a big enough deal for me to get all worked up about and try to squirm out of something I said. You get pretty worked up though. Total burn on the possessive pronoun thing though.  Wow is my face red.
    Posted by snakeoil123
    Your sentences speak for themselves in plain Englissh. "His excuses" means "his excuses." Not mine. 
    I see nothing odd about taking English at face value. You said it you own it.  There would be no point in squirming. There's no squirm room.
    Yeah, bummer about that pronoun. Did you in. 

     
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    Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?

    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?:
    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness? : Your sentences speak for themselves in plain Englissh. "His excuses" means "his excuses." Not mine.  I see nothing odd about taking English at face value. You said it you own it.  There would be no point in squirming. There's no squirm room. Yeah, bummer about that pronoun. Did you in. 
    Posted by expitch

    This could not be more boring at this point.  My point was by saying that he had a lot of excuses was that people, like you, were making excuses for him.  

    You aren't interested i discussing issues.  You have an agenda that exists in your mind only.  My point was, for the third time, that Bobby V is not tough, but that you, not he, offered excuses for that.

    Your point is that I used the wrong possessive pronoun. "But you said he had excuses and now you're trying to say he doesn't and that you meant that I made up excuses and I know this because you used a possessive pronoun".  

    You did yourself in.  Get back to me when you want to talk baseball. This has been the most pointless discussion I have ever had with anyone on here.  I bet you're proud.


     
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    Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?

    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?:
    Was Casey Stengel tough enough or did it matter?
    Posted by Calzone65



    I don't think it does matter.    

    It's sort of like asking is Bobby V tall.

    The ONLY point I was making was that Bobby V was sold by the FO and the media as a "tough" guy that would straighten out the team with an iron fist.  He isn't.
     
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    Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?

    In Response to Re: Where is Valentine's toughness?:
    For whatever reason, BV is not getting the best out of some of his best players--why? I have no idea. They are professionals, and they need to pitch and hit and hit for power..If they all did their jobs, Sox would be 10 games over .500 easily.
    Posted by dannycater


    Maybe BV is not getting the best out of some of his players because he hasn't shown or convinced his players that he has their backs.  Sure, these guys are professionals and should be able to perform up to ability no matter the circumstances, but human nature dictates that that is not always the case.  It is difficult to perform at your best when you know your boss isn't supporting you 100%, especially if he lets that lack of support be known publicly.

    The players knew that Tito had their backs.  Most players would jump through brick walls for him (last season notwithstanding).

    Regardless of what one might think about Tito's in game managing ability, Tito was one of the best at managing the players and the clubhouse.  BV doesn't seem to have that skill.  IMO, the ability to manage the players is more important than the ability to manage the game.   

    Personally, I haven't seen anything to convince me that BV is a better field manager than Tito.  I have yet to be convinced that Francona was a bad in game manager.  IMO, the team would have a better record today if Francona were still managing.
     
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