Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    Red: OK to very good
    Black: Not horrible
    Blue: Very bad to horrible

    IP  ER  H+BB
    6.2  1   4
    7.0  2   7
    6.0  4   8
    5.1  5   8
    7.0  1   9
    8.0  3   4
    6.0  5  
    11
    5.1  5  11
    7.0  3  10
    4.2  3  11
    6.1  7  11
    7.0  3    5
    6.2  3    7
    7.0  3    8
    8.0  4
      11
    5.1  4    
    9
    4.0  4  10
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from promise4you. Show promise4you's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    Interesting, I knew the numbers immediately as I have been following a certain pitcher, trying in my own very small mind to determine if be still belonged. Where he belongs depends on the others that pitch for the same team. Quite honestly on the team he plays for, his numbers show he belongs at no worse than the #4 spot. But thats just my opinion! I am also not a fair weather fan who changes his opinion on one or two starts. Unfortunately here with the Sox fans their opinion either changes daily (what appears to be very young posters) or it never changes because they are afraid to say that someone they trashed has really performed better than expected (this is a short list here, but we know who they are). I was actually trying today to find his game stats for the last few years ( I did not succeed) As I do feel he diminishes as a season goes on, again opinion as I have no data.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    Well, last year he was up and down all year as they jerked him from starter to reliever 10 times. He had a 2.45 ERA in Aug and 5.87 in Sept
    In 2009, he was pitching like an ace when he hurt his back, tried to come back, and failed.
    In 2008, he was 5th in the AL in WHIP helped mostly by a strong run from the end of May to mid-July (9 straight quality starts). After an average and bad start, he had a very good August: 4 GS  23.1 IP  7 ER (2.70 ERA). He got shelled in his first and 3rd start in Sept, but also had an 8 IP 0 ER starts and another 5 Ip 0 ER start.

    In 2007, he also had a great August (2.45 ERA) followed by an awful Sept (8.76).

    Over his long career, he has been mostly rembered for his playoff meltdowns, but he did have a few fine showings before the last few years.
    His month to month ERA over his career has been remarkably consistent:
    April: 4.03
    May:  4.69
    June: 4.35
    July:  4.31
    Aug:  4.64
    Sept: 4.35

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from promise4you. Show promise4you's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    In Response to Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?:
    [QUOTE]Well, last year he was up and down all year as they jerked him from starter to reliever 10 times. He had a 2.45 ERA in Aug and 5.87 in Sept In 2009, he was pitching like an ace when he hurt his back, tried to come back, and failed. In 2008, he was 5th in the AL in WHIP helped mostly by a strong run from the end of May to mid-July (9 straight quality starts). After an average and bad start, he had a very good August: 4 GS  23.1 IP  7 ER (2.70 ERA). He got shelled in his first and 3rd start in Sept, but also had an 8 IP 0 ER starts and another 5 Ip 0 ER start. In 2007, he also had a great August (2.45 ERA) followed by an awful Sept (8.76). Over his long career, he has been mostly rembered for his playoff meltdowns, but he did have a few fine showings before the last few years. His month to month ERA over his career has been remarkably consistent: April: 4.03 May:  4.69 June: 4.35 July:  4.31 Aug:  4.64 Sept: 4.35
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Could you give me a link to this data? I tried for over 90 minutes to find this to no avail. Thanks.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from S0ftl@w. Show S0ftl@w's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    AAA
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    His pitch is too tempremental.  If things aren't 100% right, he gets lit up.  If he's hurt or tired, then its easier for him to mess up the pitch.  That's why he'll put up great numbers for a while, and then put up terrible numbers.  As he's gotten older, it's easier for him to get those nagging injuries. 

    I think he's tired.  He's pitched a lot since Dice_k went down.  I think they should let him skip a start and find his legs.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    In Response to Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted? : Could you give me a link to this data? I tried for over 90 minutes to find this to no avail. Thanks.
    Posted by promise4you[/QUOTE]

    Go to baseball reference.com
    Search Tim Wakefield
    Click on his gamelogs or splits and click the year you want.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from promise4you. Show promise4you's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    Thanks Moon, I was there, must not have been clicking in the right places.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    The guy has been astonishingly consistent throughout his career if one ignores small sample sizes and, while I think he may have lost a bit off his best, on many teams he'd be the 4th starter or even 3rd.  On our team he's the 6th starter - for short money - and still people complain.

    Despite his recent rough patch - part and parcel of his pitch - I would be cautiously optimistic with him pencilled in as our 2012 5th starter, and very happy with him as our 6th.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from S0ftl@w. Show S0ftl@w's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    No team will allow Wakefield to be 3rd or 4th starter rotation material. 

    Wakefield has been astonishingly consistent last 2 plus ERA. ERA is over 5! 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    The Orioles cumulative starting pitching has an ERA of 5.22 and a WHIP of 1.503.  As a starter Wakefield is 5.14, 1.372.

    That's the first team I checked, and there's a case for Wakefield to be their 1st or 2nd starter (discounting the possible desire to blood young pitchers, of course). 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    In Response to Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?:
    [QUOTE]Red: OK to very good Black: Not horrible Blue: Very bad to horrible IP  ER  H+BB 6.2  1   4 7.0  2   7 6.0   4    8 5.1   5   8 7.0  1     9 8.0  3   4 6.0  5   11 5.1   5  11 7.0  3   10 4.2   3   11 6.1    7    11 7.0  3    5 6.2  3    7 7.0  3    8 8.0  4   11 5.1  4     9 4.0  4    10
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Interesting attempt to hide prejudice.
    To slot these numbers on a given team is relative to team/venue/league/etc.
    The O's would jump at the chance to slot him behind Guthrie.

    The Angels would slot him 4th/5th, but his numbers in a pitcher's park would not be what they now are. In the N.L., facing a pitcher 3 times a game over a DH, his numbers could correlate to a #2/#3 slot for many contenders.

    It's relative...to those who have open minds.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    Look!

    I love Wake as much as anybody!  But!  RIGHT NOW....  I go.......

        1        2          3            4         5        6        7


    Beckett, Lester, (Bucholtz), Bedard, Miller, Lackey, Wake

    Sorry!  I absolutely love & appreciate the guy for what he's done for the RS over these many years, but.......

    POST SEASON?????    It's just not gonna happen...
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    It's also about who's hot & who's not......

    Buch is a huge ??????   I'm not sure he comes back, & if so...... can he get hot quick????

    Really starting to LOVE Bedard & Miller

    Even Lackey.........  is SO MUCH better!   Can't believe I'm putting him in from of Wake??????  :(

    Softy's a FOOL of epic proportions........ but occasionally he is close to having a point????  Hate to admit that!!!!!!!    "Even the broken clock......"
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from S0ftl@w. Show S0ftl@w's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    The Orioles cumulative starting pitching

    Perhaps the Orioles can use Wastefield to improve their starting staff. Nah, they have zero interest in Wastefield.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    In Response to Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?:
    [QUOTE]The guy has been astonishingly consistent throughout his career if one ignores small sample sizes and, while I think he may have lost a bit off his best, on many teams he'd be the 4th starter or even 3rd.  On our team he's the 6th starter - for short money - and still people complain. Despite his recent rough patch - part and parcel of his pitch - I would be cautiously optimistic with him pencilled in as our 2012 5th starter, and very happy with him as our 6th.
    Posted by SonicsMonksLyresVicars[/QUOTE]

    I agree. Some clowns think every team had 5 starters under 5.00, even after confronting them with all the data, they still fail to see the context of what a 6th starter is (or a 3/4/5 starter on a poor team).

    First, I want to say the I have never used ERA as the top stat to measure pitchers by, but many have blasted Wake for his high ERA this year and from 2010-2011. Even if you only look at ERA, think context of the stat.

    Since the NL does not have a DH, an era of about 4.60-.475 is probably equal to a 5.00 in the AL. I won't get into park adjustments, but we all know Fenway is a hitter's park. Here are this year's MLB starters with eras over 5.00 (AL) and 4.60 (NL):
    (listed by most GS'd)

    1 Dempster 28/4.76
    2 DLowe       28/4.63
    3 BMyers     28/4.81
    4 Burnett     27/5.31
    5 Westbrook27/4.75
    6 Correia       26/4.82
    7 BArroyo      26/5.02
    8 Porcello      25/5.01
    9 Duensing    25/5.06
    10 Hammel   25/5.24
    11 Zambrano24/4.82
    12  JJ Reyes  24/5.29
    13 Volstad     23/5.61
    14 JA Happ    23/6.03
    15  Lackey     22/5.98
    16 Arrieta      22/5.05
    17 Wakefield 19/5.14
    18 Pineiro       19/5.35
    19 Duffy          18/5.55
    20 RWells        17/5.53
    21 Peavy        16/5.14
    22 TWood       16/5.11
    23 Volquez     16/5.93
    24 JLyles        15/5.02
    25 ACook        14/5.47
    26 Drabek       14/5.70
    27 Tillman       13/5.52
    28 Villanueva 13/5.15
    29 Davies        13/6.75
    30 Bergesen   12/5.78
    31 PHughes    11/6.33
    32 CColeman  11/7.25
    33 RLopez        11/4.98
    34 Talbot          11/6.33
    35 ZDuke           9/5.47
    36 DDavis          9/6.50
    37 ERogers        9/5.33
    38 Zito               9/5.62
    39 O'Sullivan    9/6.57
    40 LeBlanc        8/5.02
    41 ARodriguez  8/5.80
    42 Hensley        8/6.08
    43 Matusz          8/8.92
    44 Galaraga       8/5.91
    45 Furbush        7/6.89
    46 Enright          7/7.41
    47 Blanton         6/5.50
    48 ZStewart      6/4.84
    49 Jakabauskas6/6.91
    50 THunter         5/5.87
    51 Figeroa          5/8.28
    52 YMaya           5/5.40

    Then there are these guys with 4.80-4.99 (AL) and 4.40-4.59 in the NL:
     JFrancis 27, LHochevar27, MPelfrey27,TLily27,Jimenez26,Vazquez26, Carmona26, Penny25, Liriano24, Capuano25, HBailey16, Gorzelany15, PCoke14, Dice-K.

    As you can see, the state of MLB pitching is not as great and deep as many of you gusy apparently think it is. If some of you clowns really think Wake is not better than many guys on this list, look again. Look at WHIP, IP/GS, K/BB, and more and you'll find that Wake is way ahead of most of these guys in other meaningful stats areas. 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    Combined 2010-2011  MLB starters with an ERA over 5.00 (AL) and 4.80 (NL)?

    1 Burnett 60/5.28
    2 Hammel 55/5.01
    (Lackey     55/4.99)
    3 Volstad   53/5.01
    (Porcello    52/4.96)
    4 Vazquez  52/5.09
    (Blackburn 52/4.91)
    5 Correia    52/5.15
    (JFrancis    46/4.86)
    6 Davies   45/5.69
    (Hochevar 44/4.83)
    (RLopez      44/4.99)
    7 Morton   41/5.03
    8 Matusz   40/5.09
    9 Berges   40/5.23
    (Arrieta 39/4.88, Talbot39/4.92, Happ39/4.95)
    10 Wakefield 38/5.42
    11 Z Duke  38/5.66
    12 Cook     37/5,23
    13 Marquis 36/5.10
    14 Millwood 35/5.00
    15 Bonderman 29/5.56
    16 Kazmir   29/6.17
    then Volquea, Harden, Tillman, Bannister, O'sullivan, Feldman, Row-Smith, with 20+ starts.
    18 more starters with 15-19 GS (2010-2011) with 5.00+
    8 more with 10-14 GS

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    In Response to Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?:
    [QUOTE]It's also about who's hot & who's not...... Buch is a huge ??????   I'm not sure he comes back, & if so...... can he get hot quick???? Really starting to LOVE Bedard & Miller Even Lackey.........  is SO MUCH better!   Can't believe I'm putting him in from of Wake??????  :( Softy's a FOOL of epic proportions........ but occasionally he is close to having a point????  Hate to admit that!!!!!!!    "Even the broken clock......"
    Posted by redsoxdirtdog[/QUOTE]

    Do I give him the boot???

    Hell NO!

    He stays for spot starts due to injury etc.....  Do I keep him the rotation????

    Not sure???   Probably?   BUT.... with the way the others are pitching?????

    I still use him to give extra days off to Beckett & Lester!  

    Major Props to Bedard, Miller, & Lackey for keeping us on top! 

    Let's hope Wake gets hot next time out!!!!!!!   200?   They ought to shelve that, & only spot start Wake if needed!

    No offense Moon!!!!   LOVE THE GUY!  BUT........
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    p.s.   Just my opinion!!!!   Not based on stats. ad nosium......  Just who's doin well right now.....
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    In Response to Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?:
    [QUOTE]p.s.   Just my opinion!!!!   Not based on stats. ad nosium......  Just who's doin well right now.....
    Posted by redsoxdirtdog[/QUOTE]


    OK, but if you look at Wake'slast  6 starts, it appears you are overemphasizing his one or two most recent starts.

    IP  ER  H+BB


    7.0  3    5
    6.2  3    7
    7.0  3    8
    8.0  4
      11
    5.1  4    
    9
    4.0  4  10
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    In Response to Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted? : OK, but if you look at Wake'slast  6 starts, it appears you are overemphasizing his one or two most recent starts. IP  ER  H+BB 7.0  3    5 6.2  3    7 7.0  3    8 8.0  4   11 5.1  4     9 4.0  4    10
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Guilty!  :)

    Guess I'm just hot for finishing #1
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    I know, the old saying about pitching, :you are only as good as your last game". That does have some truth to it. Miller has pitched well for more than 1 game. He has done well for 3 games. He has nasty stuff. I'm Ok with him being the 4/5 starter. I just want people to know that Wake has not been as bad as some clowns are making him out to be.

    Even if you want to look at only ERA, at least look at Wake's ERA in the context of MLB 5/6 slotted pitchers. Look at the park he pitches in half his games. Look at the context of the amount of inherited runners the pen has allowed in his games compared to other Sox starters. (He has nearly as many allowed as the top other 4 combined!) Look at all the misplayed hits in his games that were called hist not errors and led to several runs.

    Better to look at ERA and other measures of gauging a pitcher's performance level. WHIP is a highly regarded stat. It's not just me cherry-picking an obscure stat out of my hat. Take ERA in the context of other sta ts. Wake is 4th out of our healthy starters in WHIP (1.372). he is way ahead of Lackey (1.546) and Miller (1.654).

    Look at IP per start. Wake is 3rd (6.1 IP/GS). He has more IP and more GS'd since may 22nd than any other starter on the Sox. He's 5th in K/BB (ahead of Miller). Surprisingly, he's done the best job at not allowing SBs this year. Miller has faced only one top 12 MLB offense this year, Wake has faced way more than that. .Context of stats.



     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from theYAZZER. Show theYAZZER's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    In Response to Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?:
    [QUOTE]AAA
    Posted by S0ftl@w[/QUOTE]


    AARP
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    Sorry, but I would start Miller ahead of Wakefield.  With Miller you know that, if he can command his pitches, he will do pretty well.  With Wakefield you never know when the knuckler will be very hittable. 

    I also disagree with moonslav emphasizing four earned runs in Wakefield's latest debacle. 

    Consider.  In the 4th Wake gave up 2 runs, then got the "third out" that turned into a passed ball and man on first.  The next guy walked, the next doubled, and the next hit a dinger, with a total of four runs being scored, all "unearned."  Give me a break.   If you give Wake the out on the K and passed ball, the inning ends. 

    But who's to say the next inning, the 5th, wouldn't begin with a walk to Crisp, a double by Matsui, and the dinger for 3 earned runs and a total of 7 for Wakefield? 

    Plus of course the passed ball highlights the double-edged nature of Wake's knuckler.  Sometimes the thing can just be hard to catch. 

    I will be very surprised if Wakefield starts again anytime soon.  Five other guys have demonstrated they are better starters.  And this time it cannot be argued that Wakefield hasn't had a fair shot at starting.  
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Where Should a Pitcher with these Numbers be Slotted?

    I would like to know in all his starts, how many runs that he has given up are unearned, or how many of his runners scored that were inherited.
     I would guess he leads the pitching staff in those departments.
     
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