Where was the Captain's leadership when it was needed most?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from mikezep61. Show mikezep61's posts

    Where was the Captain's leadership when it was needed most?

    I don't expect Varitek to ever hit, especially in September (his Sept. average over the past 4 years combined is .129, while his strikeout average is 35%), but where was his alleged leadership on this team?  Evidently, according to some media reports, Josh Beckett was one of the main offenders in the clubhouse and undermined Francona.  

    We all know that Tek has been Josh's personal caddie and they obviously have a pretty good relationship.  What does that say about the Captain's true leadership if his boy Beckett was one of the key figures jamming knives in Tito's back. 

    After all, Tito stood by Tek through thick and thin (to a fault), taking every bullet for him while he continued to struggle beyond comprehension (his .077 Sept. avg. didn't exactly prevent the greatest ever September collapse). 

    Tito even stood by Tek as his post All Star game average in the last three years was .176 (2011), .059 (2010), and .125 (2009).  So despite continually stinking the joint up, Tito was behind the captain --- even when he clearly didn't deserve his loyalty.

    So now that it's come out that Tek's boy Beckett was undermining Tito and the clubhouse, it would be interesting to know whether or not Tek reciprocated Tito's loyalty.  If he didn't, then the C on his chest doesn't stand for captain.  If he did nothing to help improve clubhouse dissension, than the C on his chest would more appropriately stand for coward. 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from sindarin-erebor. Show sindarin-erebor's posts

    Re: Where was the Captain's leadership when it was needed most?

    What is your source and the specifics regarding Beckett being the catalyst of players uprising against Tito? I'm not directly arguing the point, but am asking for confirmation.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from mikezep61. Show mikezep61's posts

    Re: Where was the Captain's leadership when it was needed most?

    In Response to Re: Where was the Captain's leadership when it was needed most?:
    What is your source and the specifics regarding Beckett being the catalyst of players uprising against Tito? I'm not directly arguing the point, but am asking for confirmation.
    Posted by sindarin-erebor


    Gordon Edes ESPN Boston article:

    "Josh has some real leadership qualities, but this time he didn't lead left, he didn't lead right, he led wrong," -- "One uniformed member of the team" said to Gordon Edes


    Here's the full article:
    http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/7041678/terry-francona-departure-makes-your-head-spin

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from sindarin-erebor. Show sindarin-erebor's posts

    Re: Where was the Captain's leadership when it was needed most?

    Thanks.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Where was the Captain's leadership when it was needed most?

    Mike, I have no idea what Beckett did or didn't do....but you're basing your view of Beckett on a writer's interpretation of what a "uniformed" member of the team allegedly told him off the record.

    "Uniformed" = 25 man roster, the coaches, September call ups....some of whom may be wrong, hold a grudge, etc. 

    I don't think that's a reliable source to base a judgement on.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Where was the Captain's leadership when it was needed most?

    I think some times people over read what Tek is as a "leader" and a Captain.

    We don't see much of what goes on behind the scenes which is how it should be. But Varitek's leadership has been reported over the years as largely by example. His attention to detail and homework is well documented. He is all business. Works hard. In an article this year he admitted he has never been very close or very open with teammates and his more limited role was improving that. He historically would not take any crap from pitcher's during the daily pitchers meetings he led as starting catcher and was willing to call out those who weren't attentive be it Schill or Pedro or others.

    But he never was a guy to police the room. He was there for the meltdown of order in 2001 and some of the dysfunction in late 2002.

    In the end the media is going to make it all a a lot more sensational than it was and will focus more on the dysfunctional of personalities than the lack of starting pitching depth as why the RS fell so far so fast in September. But that is because the personalities make for better stories than the fact that Miller, Wake, Weiland and Lackey stunk and Bedard was but a bit player.

    As for Tek, he was named Captain by the mangement not the players and that was in December 2004.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from mikezep61. Show mikezep61's posts

    Re: Where was the Captain's leadership when it was needed most?

    In Response to Re: Where was the Captain's leadership when it was needed most?:
    Mike, I have no idea what Beckett did or didn't do....but you're basing your view of Beckett on a writer's interpretation of what a "uniformed" member of the team allegedly told him off the record. "Uniformed" = 25 man roster, the coaches, September call ups....some of whom may be wrong, hold a grudge, etc.  I don't think that's a reliable source to base a judgement on.
    Posted by SonicsMonksLyresVicars


    If you go back and read my post, that's why I used the words "if" and "whether or not" a few times. 

    That being said, regardless of whether or not Beckett was the ringleader, I still stand by my question:  "Where was the Captain's leadership when it was needed most?" 

    Tito, Theo, and the management group all stated in their press conferences that there were serious clubhouse issues (and Tito had NEVER previously commented publicly on anything that went on inside the clubhouse -- even during the "Manny years" -- so it must have been a major issue).

    Quote directly from Francona:

    "Don't forget, a month ago this team was on pace to win 100 games," Francona said. "When things started to go, I wanted desperately for our guys to care about each other on the field. I wasn't seeing that as much as I wanted to. I tried to help make that better, the coaches also, it just wasn't ever comfortable. You've heard me talk all the time about going in one direction and getting through challenges and meeting them together, but I just didn't think we were doing that. That's my responsibility to get them to do that and it wasn't happening to my satisfaction."

    I'm just asking what did our beloved Captain do to bridge the gap between Tito & coaching staff and the offending players. IF he did nothing, or accomplished nothing, he is captain in name only.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Where was the Captain's leadership when it was needed most?

    I'm just asking what did our beloved Captain do to bridge the gap between Tito & coaching staff and the offending players.

    Not enough obviously. Neither did Pedroia. Jackie M's report makes it sound like Youk tried and made things worse.

    If there is one thing that Epstein said that rings true is that it was an organizatonal failure. At some point the organization needs to recognize it, move on from it and grow.

    Being a Captain has it limitations on any team, let alone one that was falling apart because the starting pitching was so depleted in September. It is hard to imagine what it was like playing every day knowing that in order to have a chance to win you probably needed 8 or more runs.

    No bleeping wonder the room fell apart. Sadly I think there is a smoke screen here. The RS clubhouse fell apart because so many of the starts in September had to manned by Lackey, Wake, Weiland and Miller. Those guys did not fall apart because of the lax clubhouse, they fell apart because they aren't very good pitchers.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from mikezep61. Show mikezep61's posts

    Re: Where was the Captain's leadership when it was needed most?

    In Response to Re: Where was the Captain's leadership when it was needed most?:
    I'm just asking what did our beloved Captain do to bridge the gap between Tito & coaching staff and the offending players. Not enough obviously. Neither did Pedroia. Jackie M's report makes it sound like Youk tried and made things worse. If there is one thing that Epstein said that rings true is that it was an organizatonal failure. At some point the organization needs to recognize it, move on from it and grow. Being a Captain has it limitations on any team, let alone one that was falling apart because the starting pitching was so depleted in September. It is hard to imagine what it was like playing every day knowing that in order to have a chance to win you probably needed 8 or more runs. No bleeping wonder the room fell apart. Sadly I think there is a smoke screen here. The RS clubhouse fell apart because so many of the starts in September had to manned by Lackey, Wake, Weiland and Miller. Those guys did not fall apart because of the lax clubhouse, they fell apart because they aren't very good pitchers.
    Posted by fivekatz


    True --- and add Lester and Beckett's thorough September choke-jobs and you have the full-fledged disaster that was the Boston Red Sox - September 2011.  Could those two guys have come up any smaller in September???
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Where was the Captain's leadership when it was needed most?

    I had not realized Tek's post all*star batting averages since 2009 to be so pathetic. Man it is time for him to go.
     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Where was the Captain's leadership when it was needed most?

    .000 ?
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Where was the Captain's leadership when it was needed most?

    Varitek is a washed up ballplayer. He can't hit and can't throw anyone out. Any decent backup catcher would be an improvement. Time for him to retire or just be let go. As for leadership; where was his leadership while this ship was sinking? The whole idea of " Captain " is stupid anyway. The manager is supposed to be the captain.
     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Where was the Captain's leadership when it was needed most?

       PLAYING 2ND BASE !!!   HE HAD HIS HANDS FULL TRYING TO CARRY THE TEAM........  THE SPOILED ONES NEED TO STEP-UP, AND THEY DID NOT !!!
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from OnDeckCircle. Show OnDeckCircle's posts

    Re: Where was the Captain's leadership when it was needed most?

    Varitek isn't very vocal.      Whoever the next captain is should not have a hockey "C" on his uniform.     
     
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