WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from COMMUNIST-CONTRARIAN. Show COMMUNIST-CONTRARIAN's posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]WOW ... sooooooo you make these terrible threads in every forum huh? So Brady is no better than Lou , James will be better than Jordan and Bard to the HOF. Nice to see your on your meds , out of detox and not jumping to conclusion's C.C.
    Posted by startrightnow[/QUOTE]wow...sooooooo you stalk me in every forum making the same cut and paste comment. do u ever contribute anything? can just see u now with the lady that hatched you "hey mom, what went wrong with the abortion, i thought the point was i didnt get to live?"
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    Few thoughts seeing the comments.

    Bard? Who knows but nothing indicates he'll get there, he is set-up guy right now and about 350 saves short :).

    Pedey could be but there is about 12 years of baseball left to be played, long time indeed. And he is playing in an era of great 2B. Cano, Kinsler, Utley just to name a few.

    The comments about David and PED? I think the prejudice against DH's and HOF would be greater than the PED incident. The PED incident was inconclusive and most observers recognize this. No one, not MLB, MLBPA or even the news outlet that leaked the test results that the feds had seized in the Bonds case can say what he tested positive for or if it was conclusive. I think aside from NYY fans and corner of the world that doesn't like the RS won't give that much weight.

    But let's say he plays two more years at about level he has played in the last two. He projects to have had a 17 year career, with 14 seasons of regular PT. He will have about 450 HR, 1400 RBI and an OPS of about .900. His post season numbers are great and his walk off hits are notable. The DH will mute some of that.

    The guys on the team are too young to project or too far down the path without the stats to get there IMO. Frankly 25% of the guys in the HOF weren't easy to identify as being HOF at 30 or even 32.

    Hank Aaron who is considered by most folks as the legitimate all time HR king. At 30 years old nobody would have predicted he would pass Ruth or make the HOF.

    This type of speculation is best done in the twilight of guys careers and IMO the fact that sports writers have the power and are likely to be selective in who they believe carries the PED burden who does not makes this very hard to call.

    Imo my mind a lot of guys whose names did not get attached to PEDs will get in (Thome and Griffey Jr.) while guys as good or better with the stigma of PEDs attached may not (A-Rod and Bonds).

    Now interestingly an argument can be made that A-Rod and Bonds were HOF players even without PEDs. According to what the feds patched together in their case Bonds did not start with PEDs until 2000. At that point he was already a lock to be multiple time MVP and baseball's only 500-500 player ever if you buy their timeline. That made him a lock.

    In short the process is flawed.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac32. Show pinstripezac32's posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : i hope you aren't comparing BARD to MILLER. one is a very good pitcher, the other is a failed experiment. hope you can figure which is which.
    Posted by the_yazzer[/QUOTE]

    actually I wasn't

    but now that you mention it

    when it comes to seeing them in the HOF

    right now there's not much of a difference between them

    they are both 1st round picks from 06

    who haven't accomplished squat yet
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?




    VERY EXCELLENT THREAD!!!
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheBabe-----------------. Show TheBabe-----------------'s posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]Few thoughts seeing the comments. Bard? Who knows but nothing indicates he'll get there, he is set-up guy right now and about 350 saves short :). Pedey could be but there is about 12 years of baseball left to be played, long time indeed. And he is playing in an era of great 2B. Cano, Kinsler, Utley just to name a few. The comments about David and PED? I think the prejudice against DH's and HOF would be greater than the PED incident. The PED incident was inconclusive and most observers recognize this. No one, not MLB, MLBPA or even the news outlet that leaked the test results that the feds had seized in the Bonds case can say what he tested positive for or if it was conclusive. I think aside from NYY fans and corner of the world that doesn't like the RS won't give that much weight. But let's say he plays two more years at about level he has played in the last two. He projects to have had a 17 year career, with 14 seasons of regular PT. He will have about 450 HR, 1400 RBI and an OPS of about .900. His post season numbers are great and his walk off hits are notable. The DH will mute some of that. The guys on the team are too young to project or too far down the path without the stats to get there IMO. Frankly 25% of the guys in the HOF weren't easy to identify as being HOF at 30 or even 32. Hank Aaron who is considered by most folks as the legitimate all time HR king. At 30 years old nobody would have predicted he would pass Ruth or make the HOF. This type of speculation is best done in the twilight of guys careers and IMO the fact that sports writers have the power and are likely to be selective in who they believe carries the PED burden who does not makes this very hard to call. Imo my mind a lot of guys whose names did not get attached to PEDs will get in (Thome and Griffey Jr.) while guys as good or better with the stigma of PEDs attached may not (A-Rod and Bonds). Now interestingly an argument can be made that A-Rod and Bonds were HOF players even without PEDs. According to what the feds patched together in their case Bonds did not start with PEDs until 2000. At that point he was already a lock to be multiple time MVP and baseball's only 500-500 player ever if you buy their timeline. That made him a lock. In short the process is flawed.

    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    5k....I generally think you are a pretty good even keeled poster but this is laughable.

    The only people out there that don't think papi was on PED's are the sawx fans that live in denial.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxu571. Show redsoxu571's posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]I would say the only one I think with a shot is lester. No way big sloppy gets in. Being a DH makes it hard enough to get in, being a DH on PED's will probably make it impossible to get in.
    Posted by TheBabe-----------------[/QUOTE]

    Apparently that means you think Derek Jeter has "no shot" either, as Dustin Pedroia's career pacing is actually a scary match for Jeter's.

    Think about the many ways they compare to each other:
    -Similar batting profiles...good BA, solid power, good ability to get on base, a plus on the basepaths, etc.
    -Excellent in the clutch...I'm not going to produce any stats for this, as Jeter supporters have no problem just tossing this statement out as a "truth", so I see no reason why it shouldn't apply to Pedroia too
    -Excellent leadership...I've always doubted this a bit with Jeter, but if we take it as true for him, it's certainly true with Pedroia, who is the heart and soul of his clubhouse
    -Masterful ability to work with the media in a big market...Jeter never says anything that puts his foot in his mouth, and Pedroia is never afraid to say anything, yet whatever he says avoid rubbing anyone the wrong way
    -Plusses defensively...while Jeter was more of an average fielding shortstop, and Pedroia has been a fantastic fielding 2Bman, the difference in position (SS is definitively more important) largely evens the two out in terms of overall contribution
    -Winning...both have been champions, both leads clubs that win on an annual basis

    They even have similar cons:
    -Good batting orders around them, that has helped each put up better numbers than they would have otherwise
    -Ballparks tailored for each respective player's hitting style, again helping to boost their numbers

    I'm NOT saying all this should really matter when thinking about the HOF potential of a player...I'm simply noting that whatever Jeter has, Pedroia seems to have as well, which means Pedroia is certainly on a HOF pace (as I think Jeter is a mortal lock for the HOF).

    The big difference between the two? Jeter's HOF pace career is wrapping up (with his 3000th hit being the finishing touch), whereas Pedroia has a looooong way to go to make good on his pace. I'd say, given Pedroia's profile, he's not a great bet for the HOF, as he'll need to play well for a long time AND avoid injury...but it's impossible for anyone who supports Jeter's HOF candidacy to claim Pedroia has "no shot", given that Pedroia is on pace for a scary clone version of Jeter's career.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from -TheBabe-----------. Show -TheBabe-----------'s posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : Apparently that means you think Derek Jeter has "no shot" either, as Dustin Pedroia's career pacing is actually a scary match for Jeter's. Think about the many ways they compare to each other: -Similar batting profiles...good BA, solid power, good ability to get on base, a plus on the basepaths, etc. -Excellent in the clutch...I'm not going to produce any stats for this, as Jeter supporters have no problem just tossing this statement out as a "truth", so I see no reason why it shouldn't apply to Pedroia too -Excellent leadership...I've always doubted this a bit with Jeter, but if we take it as true for him, it's certainly true with Pedroia, who is the heart and soul of his clubhouse -Masterful ability to work with the media in a big market...Jeter never says anything that puts his foot in his mouth, and Pedroia is never afraid to say anything, yet whatever he says avoid rubbing anyone the wrong way -Plusses defensively...while Jeter was more of an average fielding shortstop, and Pedroia has been a fantastic fielding 2Bman, the difference in position (SS is definitively more important) largely evens the two out in terms of overall contribution -Winning...both have been champions, both leads clubs that win on an annual basis They even have similar cons: -Good batting orders around them, that has helped each put up better numbers than they would have otherwise -Ballparks tailored for each respective player's hitting style, again helping to boost their numbers I'm NOT saying all this should really matter when thinking about the HOF potential of a player...I'm simply noting that whatever Jeter has, Pedroia seems to have as well, which means Pedroia is certainly on a HOF pace (as I think Jeter is a mortal lock for the HOF). The big difference between the two? Jeter's HOF pace career is wrapping up (with his 3000th hit being the finishing touch), whereas Pedroia has a looooong way to go to make good on his pace. I'd say, given Pedroia's profile, he's not a great bet for the HOF, as he'll need to play well for a long time AND avoid injury...but it's impossible for anyone who supports Jeter's HOF candidacy to claim Pedroia has "no shot", given that Pedroia is on pace for a scary clone version of Jeter's career.

    Posted by redsoxu571[/QUOTE]

    No....the hobbit is 27 and has 787 career hits....when Jeter was 27 he had amassed 1209 hits.....difference of 422 hits. Pretty big difference.

    Then throw in Jeter had been in 5 WS and won 4 of them at that point, can't really say they are on the same trajectory.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxu571. Show redsoxu571's posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : 5k....I generally think you are a pretty good even keeled poster but this is laughable. The only people out there that don't think papi was on PED's are the sawx fans that live in denial.
    Posted by TheBabe-----------------[/QUOTE]

    Ortiz was a latino player who had one mysterious positive test whose parameters have not been definitively outlined or investigated, and he hasn't shown the sure signs of steroid-use-as-a-performance-enhancer that certain players, such as Bonds, has.

    Could he have used steroids significantly to gain an advantage? Heck yeah.

    But could the positive test have also been a "false positive"? That can't be discounted either. One questionable test isn't a sure thing, to say the least...it's always nicer to have a preponderance of evidence (again, as is the case with Bonds) to be sure of anything with this. And don't forget, it's become fairly accepted that latino players lacked education with PEDs and often took substances they thought were innocent, but weren't.

    Do I think he is the player he is because of steroids? I'd like to think he isn't, but until we have more facts on the subject, I conceed there's a good chance he is. I fully expect over the next two decades that enterprising journalists and sportwriters will dig into the steroid era and give us a lot more to work with when it comes to judging these players.

    But do I think he's absolutely guilty? The answer is a resounding "no", as the information is too incomplete at this point.

    To say it's "laughable" to even consider Ortiz's innocence is the truly laughable opinion, as it essentially overrules our country's entire legal system. Ortiz has certainly been far from proven guilty (or innocent) based on a "preponderance of evidence", whereas the handful of players who are viewed as clear 'roiders are viewed as such because there IS a preponderance of evidence against them.

    If you insist Ortiz is an undefendable steroid user, then you must also think players such as Piazza and Bagwell were...which is a shame, because while they certainly could have been, there's no reason to blemish the careers of so many players until we have more to go on. Why be in such a rush to come to judgement?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from -TheBabe-----------. Show -TheBabe-----------'s posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : Ortiz was a latino player who had one mysterious positive test whose parameters have not been definitively outlined or investigated, and he hasn't shown the sure signs of steroid-use-as-a-performance-enhancer that certain players, such as Bonds, has. Could he have used steroids significantly to gain an advantage? Heck yeah. But could the positive test have also been a "false positive"? That can't be discounted either. One questionable test isn't a sure thing, to say the least...it's always nicer to have a preponderance of evidence (again, as is the case with Bonds) to be sure of anything with this. And don't forget, it's become fairly accepted that latino players lacked education with PEDs and often took substances they thought were innocent, but weren't. Do I think he is the player he is because of steroids? I'd like to think he isn't, but until we have more facts on the subject, I conceed there's a good chance he is. I fully expect over the next two decades that enterprising journalists and sportwriters will dig into the steroid era and give us a lot more to work with when it comes to judging these players. But do I think he's absolutely guilty? The answer is a resounding "no", as the information is too incomplete at this point. To say it's "laughable" to even consider Ortiz's innocence is the truly laughable opinion, as it essentially overrules our country's entire legal system. Ortiz has certainly been far from proven guilty (or innocent) based on a "preponderance of evidence", whereas the handful of players who are viewed as clear 'roiders are viewed as such because there IS a preponderance of evidence against them. If you insist Ortiz is an undefendable steroid user, then you must also think players such as Piazza and Bagwell were...which is a shame, because while they certainly could have been, there's no reason to blemish the careers of so many players until we have more to go on. Why be in such a rush to come to judgement?

    Posted by redsoxu571[/QUOTE]

    Of course you feel that way...you are a sawx fan.

    I don't remember piazza or bagwell being mentioned on the infamous 103 list. Maybe they were. But papi certainly was.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxu571. Show redsoxu571's posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : No....the hobbit is 27 and has 787 career hits....when Jeter was 27 he had amassed 1209 hits.....difference of 422 hits. Pretty big difference. Then throw in Jeter had been in 5 WS and won 4 of them at that point, can't really say they are on the same trajectory.
    Posted by -TheBabe-----------[/QUOTE]

    1) Jeter's career through age 27 came in a slightly better offensive era...that helps

    2) Comparing hits totals is pretty silly, as it's a counting stat, and as Jeter has largely been a hits specialist through his career (there is WAY more offensive contributions that hit totals). You use Jeter's total "through age 27", but Pedroia hasn't even finished this season yet! Jeter did have an extra year on Pedroia as well (plus the extra half a year due to Pedroia's freak injury last year), which gives Jeter an advantage "through age 27", but when careers wrap up such differences are minimized by the lengths of careers.

    3) To further illustrate that point, Pedroia already has more doubles than Jeter had through age 27, despite all the playing time advantages Jeter has had to this point. You can always come up with individual hitting stats to go one way or the other, so that wasn't what I was getting at (Ted Williams only had 925 hits through age 27, but there's no question he was a better offensive player that Jeter, as that's only one number).

    4) My point was that they are pretty similar offensive players...there are individual, semantic difference, but the big picture is they have the same offensive profile and types of contributions, yes?

    5) World Series Rings have no place in a conversation about individuals. Derek Jeter didn't win 5 rings...the New York Yankees did. I noted that both players are winners, both by regard and statistically...Pedroia certainly isn't seen as a loser! Again, to quote specific numbers of rings or such things is semantics and brings in a team-based taint to a discussion of individual accomplishments. Pedroia's "pace" is probably three rings total...would a difference of two rings really make any major difference? It's at least in the ballpark of Jeter's total, which again makes them quite similar.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from RawckinSox. Show RawckinSox's posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    I love how Carl Crawford doesn't get to be mentioned ^_^ just for Fun I choose him!
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxu571. Show redsoxu571's posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : Of course you feel that way...you are a sawx fan. I don't remember piazza or bagwell being mentioned on the infamous 103 list. Maybe they were. But papi certainly was.
    Posted by -TheBabe-----------[/QUOTE]

    I just said that I think there is "a good chance" Ortiz used steroids as a PED...what does that have to do with me being a Sox fan? A single positive test is AMPLE evidence to be suspicious of a player and thereby merits further investigation (as does sudden statistical changes, major visible muscle growth that occurs between two seasons at any time between 1993-2003, etc).

    Is a single positive test enough to say "guilty, move on"? Only if you're not a American and/or never took a civics class in school. There's no team-based bias in that fact...it's a fact that you can't reach any fair conclusion with one single piece of evidence.

    If I had to bet my life on "guilty" or "innocent" with Ortiz, I'd say "guilty", as a positive test is more likely to be a sign of guilt than innocence? Where's the Sox bias in the opinion? Thankfully, though, I don't have to choose one or the other...we live in a world of shades of grey, and for now, I await more information before I settle on an opinion of Ortiz, as any fair baseball fan should (and as fair baseball fans do with, say, Andy Pettitte).

    As for Bagwell and Piazza, that's exactly my point...they have never tested positive for anything, but there are some (mostly circumstancial, but that doesn't make it worth completely ignoring) signs that they MIGHT have taken steroids, which sadly is enough for some people to label them as 'roiders until proven otherwise. They should be viewed as clean, though, until we have enough evidence to say otherwise.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from -TheBabe-----------. Show -TheBabe-----------'s posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : 1) Jeter's career through age 27 came in a slightly better offensive era...that helps 2) Comparing hits totals is pretty silly, as it's a counting stat, and as Jeter has largely been a hits specialist through his career (there is WAY more offensive contributions that hit totals). You use Jeter's total "through age 27", but Pedroia hasn't even finished this season yet! Jeter did have an extra year on Pedroia as well (plus the extra half a year due to Pedroia's freak injury last year), which gives Jeter an advantage "through age 27", but when careers wrap up such differences are minimized by the lengths of careers. 3) To further illustrate that point, Pedroia already has more doubles than Jeter had through age 27, despite all the playing time advantages Jeter has had to this point. You can always come up with individual hitting stats to go one way or the other, so that wasn't what I was getting at (Ted Williams only had 925 hits through age 27, but there's no question he was a better offensive player that Jeter, as that's only one number). 4) My point was that they are pretty similar offensive players...there are individual, semantic difference, but the big picture is they have the same offensive profile and types of contributions, yes? 5) World Series Rings have no place in a conversation about individuals. Derek Jeter didn't win 5 rings...the New York Yankees did. I noted that both players are winners, both by regard and statistically...Pedroia certainly isn't seen as a loser! Again, to quote specific numbers of rings or such things is semantics and brings in a team-based taint to a discussion of individual accomplishments. Pedroia's "pace" is probably three rings total...would a difference of two rings really make any major difference? It's at least in the ballpark of Jeter's total, which again makes them quite similar.

    Posted by redsoxu571[/QUOTE]

    Whether you like it or not, rings do come in to play when it comes time for voting.

    And the bottom line is "counting stats" do help. That's one of the reasons that 3000 is such a special number. Bringing Williams into the conversation is silly, he didn't need 3K hits to get in because he was a slugger and had an extremely high lifetime BA....different type of ballplayer.

    And, yes, Jeter started earlier and didn't have a big injury till later, but it doesn't change the fact that there is less of a chance that pedroia gets to 3000 hits, which would make him a shoe in. As far as pedroia not "finishing the season yet"...c'mon....how many more hits is he gonna get? It's not like he's going to close the gap over the final 2 months of the season.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : Ortiz was a latino player who had one mysterious positive test whose parameters have not been definitively outlined or investigated, and he hasn't shown the sure signs of steroid-use-as-a-performance-enhancer that certain players, such as Bonds, has. Could he have used steroids significantly to gain an advantage? Heck yeah. But could the positive test have also been a "false positive"? That can't be discounted either. One questionable test isn't a sure thing, to say the least...it's always nicer to have a preponderance of evidence (again, as is the case with Bonds) to be sure of anything with this. And don't forget, it's become fairly accepted that latino players lacked education with PEDs and often took substances they thought were innocent, but weren't. Do I think he is the player he is because of steroids? I'd like to think he isn't, but until we have more facts on the subject, I conceed there's a good chance he is. I fully expect over the next two decades that enterprising journalists and sportwriters will dig into the steroid era and give us a lot more to work with when it comes to judging these players. But do I think he's absolutely guilty? The answer is a resounding "no", as the information is too incomplete at this point. To say it's "laughable" to even consider Ortiz's innocence is the truly laughable opinion, as it essentially overrules our country's entire legal system. Ortiz has certainly been far from proven guilty (or innocent) based on a "preponderance of evidence", whereas the handful of players who are viewed as clear 'roiders are viewed as such because there IS a preponderance of evidence against them. If you insist Ortiz is an undefendable steroid user, then you must also think players such as Piazza and Bagwell were...which is a shame, because while they certainly could have been, there's no reason to blemish the careers of so many players until we have more to go on. Why be in such a rush to come to judgement?
    Posted by redsoxu571[/QUOTE]Great response.

    That test that would have identified a positive for many over the counter but banned substances or amphetamines aside from steroids. Because the government seized the results in what many believe was an overly aggressive seizure of all test results in an effort to find Bonds within those results, neither MLB or the MLBPA has access to just what the positive was. The government can't unlock Ortiz' file under proper guidelines and they hold the only copies at this point.

    While the report was for positives, the record shows that positives were not limited to steroids. Ortiz has at no time admitted to use so the issue is cloudy unless you want to rush to judgement. Considering how many times he has tested negative since, coming to the same conclusion about him or A-Rod who admitted the test results were reflective of his PED use or Manny Ramirez who was busted twice after the random testing samples, the issue is not conclusive unless one wishes to think the worst of someone. I can say he did not but I sure as heck can't say he did.

    And in that light I think the stigma of that test will not follow him. I don't think Petitte will be burdened by his admitted use of PED either. The process will be very subjective.

    If I had to guess Bonds will never shake the stigma and get into the hall but A-Rod will. Clemens won't but Petitte actually might.

    The bigger issue IMO still is that DH's are under valued by sports writers and they are the final decision makers. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxu571. Show redsoxu571's posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    According to your logic, Pedroia is fine though, as he has more doubles than Jeter had at his age *sarcasm*.

    Again, though, in all seriousness, each is an arbitrary way to rate someone's HOF candidacy, as people look at the whole picture. And, as was my point (which you seem to be ignoring), the whole picture for each is remarkably similar.

    Yes, 3000 hits is one of the milestones Pedroia would probably have to reach to make it to the HOF, but it's WAAAAY to early to say he will or won't. I did NOT say he is "likely" to be a HOFer, just that his current pace looks to carry him there. The difference between his pace and his actual HOF chances, though, is that most players can't keep their pace up...just ask Albert Belle.

    The hat tip to Jeter is that, although he rarely played at a HOF level in any individual season (more of an All-Star caliber player), he did it annually, and with little missed time, which is something VERY few players can say. Odds are Pedroia will not, so odds are he won't...but his pace is right on target. Good luck keeping it up, Dustin, but you're doing what you have to do.


    I never denied that rings do bring weight in a HOF discussion...I said to quibble with Jeter's 5 rings compared to Pedroia's 1 (at age 27) is silly as it's MORE of a team statistic. HOF voters do discount players without a ring, because they wonder how a HOF could never have been a champion. Getting at least one is the most important thing. As Pedroia's pace likely brings him to 2 or 3, that makes him a "winner", as Jeter is also regarded...so that makes them similar. I didn't say even, again, that's a semantic, but both have the winner benefit going for him.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from -TheBabe-----------. Show -TheBabe-----------'s posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : Great response. That test that would have identified a positive for many over the counter but banned substances or amphetamines aside from steroids. Because the government seized the results in what many believe was an overly aggressive seizure of all test results in an effort to find Bonds within those results, neither MLB or the MLBPA has access to just what the positive was. The government can't unlock Ortiz' file under proper guidelines and they hold the only copies at this point. While the report was for positives, the record shows that positives were not limited to steroids. Ortiz has at no time admitted to use so the issue is cloudy unless you want to rush to judgement. Considering how many times he has tested negative since, coming to the same conclusion about him or A-Rod who admitted the test results were reflective of his PED use or Manny Ramirez who was busted twice after the random testing samples, the issue is not conclusive unless one wishes to think the worst of someone. I can say he did not but I sure as heck can't say he did. And in that light I think the stigma of that test will not follow him. I don't think Petitte will be burdened by his admitted use of PED either. The process will be very subjective. If I had to guess Bonds will never shake the stigma and get into the hall but A-Rod will. Clemens won't but Petitte actually might. The bigger issue IMO still is that DH's are under valued by sports writers and they are the final decision makers. 

    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    That's a big difference. Pettitte admitted while papi is still in denial. That being said, I don't think Pettite gets in either.

    Neither clemens or bonds has admitted to PED's use (just like papi), does that mean the stigma won't follow them?

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from the_yazzer. Show the_yazzer's posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]I love how Carl Crawford doesn't get to be mentioned ^_^ just for Fun I choose him!
    Posted by RawckinSox[/QUOTE]


    well, if basball has an induction ceremony for worst, most pathetic, long term contract ever signed, then CRAWFISH is a shoe-in. same goes for MR. INEPSTEIN.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : well, if basball has an induction ceremony for worst, most pathetic, long term contract ever signed, than CRAWFISH is a shoe-in. same goes for MR. INEPSTEIN.
    Posted by the_yazzer[/QUOTE]

    You should harp on this some more.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from the_yazzer. Show the_yazzer's posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : You should harp on this some more.
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]

    high 5!
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from -TheBabe-----------. Show -TheBabe-----------'s posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]According to your logic, Pedroia is fine though, as he has more doubles than Jeter had at his age *sarcasm*. Again, though, in all seriousness, each is an arbitrary way to rate someone's HOF candidacy, as people look at the whole picture. And, as was my point (which you seem to be ignoring), the whole picture for each is remarkably similar. Yes, 3000 hits is one of the milestones Pedroia would probably have to reach to make it to the HOF, but it's WAAAAY to early to say he will or won't. I did NOT say he is "likely" to be a HOFer, just that his current pace looks to carry him there. The difference between his pace and his actual HOF chances, though, is that most players can't keep their pace up...just ask Albert Belle. The hat tip to Jeter is that, although he rarely played at a HOF level in any individual season (more of an All-Star caliber player), he did it annually, and with little missed time, which is something VERY few players can say. Odds are Pedroia will not, so odds are he won't...but his pace is right on target. Good luck keeping it up, Dustin, but you're doing what you have to do. I never denied that rings do bring weight in a HOF discussion...I said to quibble with Jeter's 5 rings compared to Pedroia's 1 (at age 27) is silly as it's MORE of a team statistic. HOF voters do discount players without a ring, because they wonder how a HOF could never have been a champion. Getting at least one is the most important thing. As Pedroia's pace likely brings him to 2 or 3, that makes him a "winner", as Jeter is also regarded...so that makes them similar. I didn't say even, again, that's a semantic, but both have the winner benefit going for him.

    Posted by redsoxu571[/QUOTE]

    I don't see how there's a "pace" that "likely" brings pedroia to 2 or 3 rings.

    And if you think that Jeter has "rarely played at HOF level" than I don't see any need to carry this conversation any further.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from tc25. Show tc25's posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : well, if basball has an induction ceremony for worst, most pathetic, long term contract ever signed, then CRAWFISH is a shoe-in. same goes for MR. INEPSTEIN.
    Posted by the_yazzer[/QUOTE]
    yaz, i hate to say this but Crawford has a better chance than Pedey of getting in the HOF, 1. Crawford will be 30 in early August & has almost 1600 hits 2. Pedey will be 28 in midAugust  & has something like 776. 3. Pedey is a little guy & playing like he does I see injuries in the future & also I see him wearing down quicker than most,4. do not like what I have posted but I think this is what will happen
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : That's a big difference. Pettitte admitted while papi is still in denial. That being said, I don't think Pettite gets in either. Neither clemens or bonds has admitted to PED's use (just like papi), does that mean the stigma won't follow them?
    Posted by -TheBabe-----------[/QUOTE]No they haven't but both are confronted with alot more evidence and federal prosecution.

    Yes Petitte and Ortiz are different in that one bought it and the other denied it. All that the two seem to present to me is that it is possible to move on from the implications.

    BTW if I had a vote for HOF I would cast one for Petitte for sure. The 300 win thing is not a measuring stick at this point. It was applied in the 4 man rotation era and before bullpens were used as they are today.

    His career and his post season performances clearly make him an absolute stand out from his era.

    I know you don't want to hear it but being on the list of 103's raw data did not mean the anabolic steroids were the result of any particular test or even a masking agent (what Ramirez was busted for with while with the Dodgers).

    The PED thing in general is a crock of excrement IMO. There are no test results to prove this BUT I think it is almost absurd to think that Junior Griffey, Bags, Piazza and lesser names like Trot Nixon weren't using.

    Reality is there is no way to make the era right, so IMO the best solution would be to judge each player based on how they performed in the era, recognize the best from that era not for traditional automatic metrics like 500 HR but rather how they ranked in the peer group. Let each observer judge for themselves how that stacks up against other eras.

    Otherwise we are bound to have the "uncaught" enshrined and those caught or percieved as caught excluded even if they all had the same advantage without the cloud of association.   
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from the_yazzer. Show the_yazzer's posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : yaz, i hate to say this but Crawford has a better chance than Pedey of getting in the HOF, 1. Crawford will be 30 in early August & has almost 1600 hits 2. Pedey will be 28 in midAugust  & has something like 776. 3. Pedey is a little guy & playing like he does I see injuries in the future & also I see him wearing down quicker than most,4. do not like what I have posted but I think this is what will happen
    Posted by tc25[/QUOTE]

    i disagree; pedey thrives on large crowds and the spotlight; he will continue to get better.
    crawfish is more comfortable playing in front of small crowds and less pressure.
    with boston, he will continue to get worse.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from -TheBabe-----------. Show -TheBabe-----------'s posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : No they haven't but both are confronted with alot more evidence and federal prosecution. Yes Petitte and Ortiz are different in that one bought it and the other denied it. All that the two seem to present to me is that it is possible to move on from the implications. BTW if I had a vote for HOF I would cast one for Petitte for sure. The 300 win thing is not a measuring stick at this point. It was applied in the 4 man rotation era and before bullpens were used as they are today. His career and his post season performances clearly make him an absolute stand out from his era. I know you don't want to hear it but being on the list of 103's raw data did not mean the anabolic steroids were the result of any particular test or even a masking agent (what Ramirez was busted for with while with the Dodgers). The PED thing in general is a crock of excrement IMO. There are no test results to prove this BUT I think it is almost absurd to think that Junior Griffey, Bags, Piazza and lesser names like Trot Nixon weren't using. Reality is there is no way to make the era right, so IMO the best solution would be to judge each player based on how they performed in the era, recognize the best from that era not for traditional automatic metrics like 500 HR but rather how they ranked in the peer group. Let each observer judge for themselves how that stacks up against other eras. Otherwise we are bound to have the "uncaught" enshrined and those caught or percieved as caught excluded even if they all had the same advantage without the cloud of association.   

    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    manny was not busted for a masking agent.

    And that's great that your opinion is how they all should be judged, but that really doesn't matter until you get to vote.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from trouts. Show trouts's posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]I saw an older gentleman in Bangkok today with a RS hat and a Tek uniform shirt on.... I wanted to heckle him but just couldn't find the strength.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]
     Nice post. Though you might have high 5ed the guy over Tek's long bomb last night.
     

Share