WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

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    In Response to WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]methinks papelbon, pedy, papi, ellsbury, youk, gonzo, lester +beckett could all someday be in cooperstown. in order, i would say the trajectory is gonzo, pap, pedy, ells, lester, papi (steroids and dh will hurt), and becks. BARD, REDDICK, and tek could have very much outside shots someday. bard actually is the one i have the most confidence in. he could be an all-timer someday as both a starter or closer. 
    Posted by COMMUNIST-CONTRARIAN[/QUOTE]

    Did you intentionally leave Wakefield off the list? If you think Tek has a shot, then Wake should be included as well.

    He stands at 111 in the wins column and there are 11 pitchers with less wins than Wake in HOF.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

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    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : No they haven't but both are confronted with alot more evidence and federal prosecution. Yes Petitte and Ortiz are different in that one bought it and the other denied it. All that the two seem to present to me is that it is possible to move on from the implications. BTW if I had a vote for HOF I would cast one for Petitte for sure. The 300 win thing is not a measuring stick at this point. It was applied in the 4 man rotation era and before bullpens were used as they are today. His career and his post season performances clearly make him an absolute stand out from his era. I know you don't want to hear it but being on the list of 103's raw data did not mean the anabolic steroids were the result of any particular test or even a masking agent (what Ramirez was busted for with while with the Dodgers). The PED thing in general is a crock of excrement IMO. There are no test results to prove this BUT I think it is almost absurd to think that Junior Griffey, Bags, Piazza and lesser names like Trot Nixon weren't using. Reality is there is no way to make the era right, so IMO the best solution would be to judge each player based on how they performed in the era, recognize the best from that era not for traditional automatic metrics like 500 HR but rather how they ranked in the peer group. Let each observer judge for themselves how that stacks up against other eras. Otherwise we are bound to have the "uncaught" enshrined and those caught or percieved as caught excluded even if they all had the same advantage without the cloud of association.   
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    I think Pettitte used more than you think.  The two incidents he admitted to were in 2002 and 2004, but if you look at his stats, during which time he averaged a full K/9 over his career average, and that has to cast doubt on his career year in 2005.  If you take those years away, his ERA is over 4.

    Also, I'm more cautious about accusing players due to body change, because many players were taking Andro, which was sold at GNC, and used by weight-lifters and body builders.  It wasn't added to the banned substance list until 2004, so that could account for guys who added and lost muscle (ala Bagwell, who also had a crippling shoulder injury that I'm sure affected his weight training routine).



     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

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    J.D. Drew, definitely.  Five tool player, which is very rare.  Who cares if he doesn't actually play that much or that his run production over the years has been miniscule?  When a player can hit, hit with power, throw, field, and run the bases, that should be enough. 
     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from COMMUNIST-CONTRARIAN. Show COMMUNIST-CONTRARIAN's posts

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    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]I love how Carl Crawford doesn't get to be mentioned ^_^ just for Fun I choose him!
    Posted by RawckinSox[/QUOTE]
    actually ur right. how quickly i/we forget. he certainly wasnt paid 20+M because he has been average all these years. if bard and youk are included, certainly carl should be. i will go with this year simply being an anomaly and next year will be a bounce back! he could still get back on the HOF trajectory!
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : manny was not busted for a masking agent. And that's great that your opinion is how they all should be judged, but that really doesn't matter until you get to vote.
    Posted by -TheBabe-----------[/QUOTE]Well first off all almost everything here is opinion, well except some of the stuff that comes of your keyboard which may not even be your opinion but serves the purpose of generally annoying people for your personal entertainment.

    So whilst I don't have a vote, my posting my opinion is not only what we do here, but was intended as an act of sharing which is more than can be said about 98% of what you do here, which is not intended to share but rather to taunt and irritate.

    What I can't get is why that enteratins you so, to the point that you keep coming back in the face of BDC constantly suspending your trolling rights. Just can't figure out what it is all about and how empty your life must be...

    As to Ortiz this is what MLB said at the time about the list..

    "Given the uncertainties inherent in the list, we urge the press and the public to use caution in reaching conclusions based on leaks of names, particularly from sources whose identities are not revealed," Major League Baseball said in a statement.

    You are correct that I framed the Manny description wrongly, it wasn't a masking agent but rather a drug normally used once one has cycled off of steroids. Since we are going to get into to exactitude the drug was HCG, a drug normal used to control a woman's hormones during pregnancy but also used to kick start the normal production of testosterone in men when cycling off of anabolic steroids.

    Here's a short on HCG:

    HCG is not a steroid, but a naturally occurring peptide hormone, produced by the embryo in the early stages of pregnancy and later by the trophoblast (part of the placenta) to help control a pregnant womans hormones.

    HCG is clinically used to induce ovulation and treat ovarian disorders in women, as well stimulate the testes hypogonadal (underproduction of testosterone) men.

    The use of HCG will send an artificial signal to the testes (again, as if it were actually LH), thus preventing (to some degree) atrophy. It not only helps to maintain testicular size and condition but it will also help in restoring testicles back to their original size.

    At a time when below normal androgen levels (due to AAS use) could become costly. Restarting natural testosterone production as quickly as possible is of a special concern in males at the end of a cycle of AAS. The price paid by bodybuilders for failing to raise natural test levels is the loss of most if not all the hard earned muscle you have gained, the main cause is cortisol. Cortisol sends a message to the muscles that is opposite to that of testosterone. If cortisol is not dealt with (because of an extremely low testosterone level) it will quickly strip away the new and hard earned muscle you have just gotten.




     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from COMMUNIST-CONTRARIAN. Show COMMUNIST-CONTRARIAN's posts

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    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : Did you intentionally leave Wakefield off the list? If you think Tek has a shot, then Wake should be included as well. He stands at 111 in the wins column and there are 11 pitchers with less wins than Wake in HOF.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]
    yes! wake is a lock for the patriot HOF. he's the troy brown of the sox. but to me, u cant be in the HOF if u really have never been the ace of any staff and now has spent his last few years as a sox as the 5th starter/long man. he's more of an extra piece and is the classic beneficiary of pure longetivity. one all-star game nomination will also hurt big time. wake's career is on the downswing. his body of work is just good not overly impressive but again, he's troy brown the indispensable team warrior guy. will never be forgotten locallly but no way anyone not watching nesn regularly will even consider him witout snickering at the thought!
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

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    MVPEDEY
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from -TheBabe-----------. Show -TheBabe-----------'s posts

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    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : Well first off all almost everything here is opinion, well except some of the stuff that comes of your keyboard which may not even be your opinion but serves the purpose of generally annoying people for your personal entertainment. So whilst I don't have a vote, my posting my opinion is not only what we do here, but was intended as an act of sharing which is more than can be said about 98% of what you do here, which is not intended to share but rather to taunt and irritate. What I can't get is why that enteratins you so, to the point that you keep coming back in the face of BDC constantly suspending your trolling rights. Just can't figure out what it is all about and how empty your life must be... As to Ortiz this is what MLB said at the time about the list.. " Given the uncertainties inherent in the list , we urge the press and t he public to use caution in reaching conclusions based on leaks of names , particularly from sources whose identities are not revealed," Major League Baseball said in a statement. You are correct that I framed the Manny description wrongly, it wasn't a masking agent but rather a drug normally used once one has cycled off of steroids. Since we are going to get into to exactitude the drug was HCG, a drug normal used to control a woman's hormones during pregnancy but also used to kick start the normal production of testosterone in men when cycling off of anabolic steroids. Here's a short on HCG: HCG is not a steroid, but a naturally occurring peptide hormone, produced by the embryo in the early stages of pregnancy and later by the trophoblast (part of the placenta) to help control a pregnant womans hormones. HCG is clinically used to induce ovulation and treat ovarian disorders in women, as well stimulate the testes hypogonadal (underproduction of testosterone) men. The use of HCG will send an artificial signal to the testes (again, as if it were actually LH), thus preventing (to some degree) atrophy. It not only helps to maintain testicular size and condition but it will also help in restoring testicles back to their original size. At a time when below normal androgen levels (due to AAS use) could become costly. Restarting natural testosterone production as quickly as possible is of a special concern in males at the end of a cycle of AAS. The price paid by bodybuilders for failing to raise natural test levels is the loss of most if not all the hard earned muscle you have gained, the main cause is cortisol. Cortisol sends a message to the muscles that is opposite to that of testosterone. If cortisol is not dealt with (because of an extremely low testosterone level) it will quickly strip away the new and hard earned muscle you have just gotten. Read more: http://www.steroid.com/HCG.php#ixzz1TLDBzhlD

    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    My apologies 5k, it didn't sound the way I meant it. 

    The OP was about who could be bound, so when I think of that I don't think of who in my opinion could/should go in but more on who is likely to get voted in. Regardless of what I may think of the player. So when I said it doesn't matter till you get to vote, I meant it as our opinions really don't matter, it's what we may think the voters opinions are. I hope that makes sense, I wasn't trying to pick a fight.

    And I know all about hCG, typically used by long term steroid users.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from jb12bb. Show jb12bb's posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    Gonzalez, Ortiz, Pedroia, Lester have the best shot.  Players like Ellsbury, Papelbon, Beckett, Youkilis and Buchholz would need to have long careers with consistent numbers to be considered.


    A. Gonzales will win two MVP awards while in a RS uniform, while putting up monster numbers especially in hits, RBI's and doubles.

    Lester will have atleast one CY Young award and if healthy and in a sox uniform should be in the top five in wins all time for the RS.

     
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    [QUOTE]Gonzalez, Ortiz, Pedroia, Lester have the best shot.  Players like Ellsbury, Papelbon, Beckett, Youkilis and Buchholz would need to have long careers with consistent numbers to be considered. A. Gonzales will win two MVP awards while in a RS uniform, while putting up monster numbers especially in hits, RBI's and doubles. Lester will have atleast one CY Young award and if healthy and in a sox uniform should be in the top five in wins all time for the RS.
    Posted by jb12bb[/QUOTE]

    You must have a crystal ball.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

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    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : Did you intentionally leave Wakefield off the list? If you think Tek has a shot, then Wake should be included as well. He stands at 111 in the wins column and there are 11 pitchers with less wins than Wake in HOF.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]

    Huh?
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Your-Echo. Show Your-Echo's posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    The OP use of the word trajectory is unusual but acceptable. The only other poster who used the word in such a manner was Softlaw.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

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    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : I think Pettitte used more than you think.  The two incidents he admitted to were in 2002 and 2004, but if you look at his stats, during which time he averaged a full K/9 over his career average, and that has to cast doubt on his career year in 2005.  If you take those years away, his ERA is over 4. Also, I'm more cautious about accusing players due to body change, because many players were taking Andro, which was sold at GNC, and used by weight-lifters and body builders.  It wasn't added to the banned substance list until 2004, so that could account for guys who added and lost muscle (ala Bagwell, who also had a crippling shoulder injury that I'm sure affected his weight training routine).
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    Is that your take on Papi too? Here's guessing if he were a Yankee, the answer is Yes. 

    FWIW, those better #s largely occurred in the NL.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from the_yazzer. Show the_yazzer's posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]J.D. Drew, definitely.  Five tool player, which is very rare.  Who cares if he doesn't actually play that much or that his run production over the years has been miniscule?  When a player can hit, hit with power, throw, field, and run the bases, that should be enough. 
    Posted by maxbialystock[/QUOTE]


    that's true; but what does nancy drew have to do with any of that?
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from the_yazzer. Show the_yazzer's posts

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    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : actually ur right. how quickly i/we forget. he certainly wasnt paid 20+M because he has been average all these years. if bard and youk are included, certainly carl should be. i will go wuth this year simply being an anolmaly and next year will be a bounce back! he could still get back on the HOF trajectory!
    Posted by COMMUNIST-CONTRARIAN[/QUOTE]


    he was paid 20+ million because the SOX  have  a fool posing as a GM.
    and you're a fool if you actually believe that CRAWFISH is going to be anything but mediocre with BOSTON.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : Is that your take on Papi too? Here's guessing if he were a Yankee, the answer is Yes.  FWIW, those better #s largely occurred in the NL.
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]

    His K/9 rate was unusually high in 2003, with the Yankees, and extremely high in a shortened 2004.  In 2005, his WHIP was 1.030, compared to his 1.357 career average - you would expect a bit of a dip from the NL, but that's off the charts.

    Pettitte is a unique scenario because we have a known (admitted) date range for him.  If you suspect Papi of PED use, you are probably of the opinion that he has been using all his career.  With Pettitte, you can see that from 2002 to 2005, the numbers are very different than the rest of his career in some regards.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Your-Echo. Show Your-Echo's posts

    Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?

    In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHICH CURRENT SOX COULD EVENTUALLY BE HOF BOUND? : he was paid 20+ million because the SOX  have  a fool posing as a GM. and you're a fool if you actually believe that CRAWFISH is going to be anything but mediocre with BOSTON.
    Posted by the_yazzer[/QUOTE]

    In addition to Crawfish how about throwing in a Tacoby Bellsbury more often. Do you still watch a lot of TV on Saturday mornings?
     
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