Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

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    Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

    In Response to Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best? : Kim - I don't think I have ever directly or indirectly addressed you before.  If I am mistaken, please refresh my memory.  Details will be welcomed and addressed. BTW, if you want your righteous indignation about being labelled as another of Pike's pseudonyms to be taken seriously, you might want to stop posting comments like this.
    Posted by Chilliwings[/QUOTE]

    Facts:
    • I am aware that Kim has been accused of being Pike's Nth pseudonym
    • I am aware that Kim has robustly denied it
    • I have never paid much attention to the "debate"
    • I have never entered the "debate"
    • I am pretty certain I have never addressed "Kim" before - am open to contradiction if someone - Pike? Kim? - disagrees
    • I have robustly criticised Pike recently for his repetitive, troll-hunting posts
    • I have twice this week expressed my view that not only do I think that "Babe", obviously a hall of fame wind-up artist, is pretty funny but that "Pike" is the worst poster here
    • Kim, suddenly, for the first time, addresses me today, accusing me of....something....some sort of Yankee sympathising....I guess that makes me the leader of the Vichy Red Sox Nation.
    I am forced to conclude that Kim is clearly, sadly, another subset of Pike's sad, fantasy world.

     
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    Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

    In Response to Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best? : Facts: I am aware that Kim has been accused of being Pike's Nth pseudonym I am aware that Kim has robustly denied it I have never paid much attention to the "debate" I have never entered the "debate" I am pretty certain I have never addressed "Kim" before - am open to contradiction if someone - Pike? Kim? - disagrees I have robustly criticised Pike recently for his repetitive, troll-hunting posts I have twice this week expressed my view that not only do I think that "Babe", obviously a hall of fame wind-up artist, is pretty funny but that "Pike" is the worst poster here Kim, suddenly, for the first time, addresses me today, accusing me of....something....some sort of Yankee sympathising....I guess that makes me the leader of the Vichy Red Sox Nation. I am forced to conclude that Kim is clearly, sadly, another subset of Pike's sad, fantasy world.
    Posted by Chilliwings[/QUOTE]

    sadly, i think this thread confirms it....whatever....play ball
     
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    Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

    In Response to Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?:
    [QUOTE]Sorry but this is a flawed question as Ted Williams had the single best season ever of any player in Baseball in 1941. In my life time it is easy to say Yaz. I was a touch too young to know much about what Yaz was doing in 67 though I do remember how big a deal it was to my dad.  But Teddy Ball game had the best ever for any position in MLB so just for a quick look at his offensive numbers here they are: Ted Williams .406 in 1941 with 147 walks, OBP .553, Slugging % .735, and OPS 1.287, 135 runs scored, 37 HR's, 120 RBI, 335 total bases. Just 27 SO's! His WAR was 11.3 and Fielding % was .961 when his contemporaries had a % of .973 so there was that minor defect but other then that his numbers were awesome.
    Posted by DaBlade[/QUOTE]

    The question isn't flawed. He didn't ask, which Sox outfielder at the best season all time?

    He just picked four great seasons by a Sox OF and asked which of those was the best. Nothing wrong with that. 


    I think we can all agree that Williams has had the best seasons by a Sox OF. So this is picking the best other than Ted's.
     
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    Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

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    [QUOTE]As far as Williams being possibly the greatest hitter...arguably, yes. The best fighter pilot...it's great that he did it...but it'd be silly to think he was 'the best'...a lot of fulltime military pilots were probably better. The best fisherman....this just shows that Ted may not have been as inately intelligent as it seemed....he spent all that time fishing....all he had to do was go to a supemarket....they got all kinds of fish.
    Posted by bellhorn_[/QUOTE]
    Let's leave out "best." It's almost always problematical. John Glenn praised Williams highly as his wing man in Korea. After Ted brought in a burning plane, Glenn called it "the best landing I ever saw."

     
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    Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

    In Response to Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?:
    [QUOTE]Yaz did win the triple crown. On the other hand Rice had three straight years of triple crown numbers, (77-79) Yaz never did that.
    Posted by jaytf25[/QUOTE]

    If you're going to play that game: 

    Yaz won three batting titles and nearly a fourth. Rice won none.

    Yaz had two seasons with an OPS over 1.000 and led the league in OPS for times. Rice never was over 1.000 in OPS and led the league in OPS just once.
     
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    Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

    In Response to Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?:
    [QUOTE]Sorry but this is a flawed question as Ted Williams had the single best season ever of any player in Baseball in 1941. In my life time it is easy to say Yaz. I was a touch too young to know much about what Yaz was doing in 67 though I do remember how big a deal it was to my dad.  But Teddy Ball game had the best ever for any position in MLB so just for a quick look at his offensive numbers here they are: Ted Williams .406 in 1941 with 147 walks, OBP .553, Slugging % .735, and OPS 1.287, 135 runs scored, 37 HR's, 120 RBI, 335 total bases. Just 27 SO's! His WAR was 11.3 and Fielding % was .961 when his contemporaries had a % of .973 so there was that minor defect but other then that his numbers were awesome.
    Posted by DaBlade[/QUOTE]
    For those of us who are dinosaurs, Teddy Ballgame easily is the best. However, if you did not see the HBO special on Ted you really missed out. I was lucky enough to see TSW play (hit) actually and there is no doubt he is the greatest hitter of all time. I had met him a few times as he lived close by. When entered a restaurant, every person stopped and stared. On the HBO special, Robert Redford alluded to Ted as his idol bedore filming began. Ted was fishing of course.
     
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    Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

    In Response to Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?:
    [QUOTE]                       ISO        wRC+         Fielding          WAR ( Fnghs ) Ellsbury '11     .230         150              15.6               9.4 Lynn '79          .303         174               9.0               9.0 Rice '78          .285          162               8.0               8.1  Yaz '67           .295          194               23.0            12.1      
    Posted by tom-uk[/QUOTE]

    No TW?
     
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    Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best? : For those of us who are dinosaurs, Teddy Ballgame easily is the best. However, if you did not see the HBO special on Ted you really missed out. I was lucky enough to see TSW play (hit) actually and there is no doubt he is the greatest hitter of all time. I had met him a few times as he lived close by. When entered a restaurant, every person stopped and stared. On the HBO special, Robert Redford alluded to Ted as his idol bedore filming began. Ted was fishing of course.
    Posted by boboinfla[/QUOTE]

    I'm not anti-Ted in any way....I'm massively pro-Ted.  Not just for his great ability and performance, but also for his outrageous, beautiful stubborness and self-belief. We should all have such courage.

    But he's a wonderful, glorious nbr 2 to Babe Ruth's batting supremacy.


     
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    Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

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    [QUOTE]As far as Williams being possibly the greatest hitter...arguably, yes. The best fighter pilot...it's great that he did it...but it'd be silly to think he was 'the best'...a lot of fulltime military pilots were probably better. The best fisherman....this just shows that Ted may not have been as inately intelligent as it seemed....he spent all that time fishing....all he had to do was go to a supemarket....they got all kinds of fish.
    Posted by bellhorn_[/QUOTE]

      The Red Baron of Germany shot down close to 80 planes in WW1, that's a record that will be tough to beat.
     
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    Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

    Ted Williams lost 4 seasons to WWII and 2 more years to the Korean War in his prime and would have hit 600-700 HRs if not for the 6 lost seasons.  His .406 saeson is special because he played in a double header on the last day and went 6 for 8. Yaz won a lot of games in his best year, the year of the Impossible Dream.  I remember going to several games where they won games they should have lost with rallies in the ninth inning.  i would pick Ted with Yaz second.
     
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    Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

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    [QUOTE]Yaz did win the triple crown. On the other hand Rice had three straight years of triple crown numbers, (77-79) Yaz never did that.
    Posted by jaytf25[/QUOTE]

      Stats have to be taken in the context of their times. The middle to late sixties was a period when offensive numbers were in steep decline. The year Yaz had was as good a year these eyes has ever seen, and this is coming from someone who remembers "Yaz the early years" when he was Yawkey's fair haired boy, and clubhouse aggitater.
     
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    Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

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    [QUOTE]As far as Williams being possibly the greatest hitter...arguably, yes. The best fighter pilot...it's great that he did it...but it'd be silly to think he was 'the best'...a lot of fulltime military pilots were probably better. The best fisherman....this just shows that Ted may not have been as inately intelligent as it seemed....he spent all that time fishing....all he had to do was go to a supemarket....they got all kinds of fish.
    Posted by bellhorn_[/QUOTE]

    There were some legendary German & Soviet fighter pilots.

    In the link below, TW wasn't even mentioned. More homerism.



    n terms of claimed aircraft, German super-ace Erich Hartmann is the greatest ace of all time, in any war . Hartmann is credited with 352 victories. The top US ace, Richard Bong, had 40. The top British ace, South African Marmaduke Pattle, had 51. The top Soviet ace,Ivan Kozhedub, had 62. Japan's top fighter ace, Hiroyoshi Nishizawa, had an incredible 87. It should be noted that the German pilots flew until they were killed, while Allied pilots often were promoted out of combat positions. Also, Soviet aircraft and pilots were poor in comparison to the highly-skilled German pilots and their high performance aircraft. However, this in no way tarnishes the fact that Hartmann had on average 300 more victories than even the best of his contemporaries.
     
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    Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best? : For those of us who are dinosaurs, Teddy Ballgame easily is the best. However, if you did not see the HBO special on Ted you really missed out. I was lucky enough to see TSW play (hit) actually and there is no doubt he is the greatest hitter of all time. I had met him a few times as he lived close by. When entered a restaurant, every person stopped and stared. On the HBO special, Robert Redford alluded to Ted as his idol bedore filming began. Ted was fishing of course.
    Posted by boboinfla[/QUOTE]


    Are u kidding? Did you forget about Ruth, Cobb, & others? Perhaps you should look at their stats, as well as Ted's away stats. I'll grant you he's in the top 3.
     
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    Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

    In Response to Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best? : I'm not anti-Ted in any way....I'm massively pro-Ted.  Not just for his great ability and performance, but also for his outrageous, beautiful stubborness and self-belief. We should all have such courage. But he's a wonderful, glorious nbr 2 to Babe Ruth's batting supremacy.
    Posted by Chilliwings[/QUOTE]
    Babe Ruth spent 1917-18 playing baseball for the Boston Red Sox -- and God knows what else. Ted lost five years in his prime to military service. I know you are talking about "relative" numbers ( please supply data ), but those five years surely would have had an impact on Ted's numbers.
    Why even bring up Ruth, apparently as a response to a friend who irritates you? This thread is about Boston outfielders, full time ones.

     
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    Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best? : Babe Ruth spent 1917-18 playing baseball for the Boston Red Sox -- and God knows what else. Ted lost five years in his prime to military service. I know you are talking about "relative" numbers ( please supply data ), but those five years surely would have had an impact on Ted's numbers. Why even bring up Ruth, apparently as a response to a friend who irritates you? This thread is about Boston outfielders, full time ones.
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    There is no doubt he would have had around 700 HRs if he played those seasons; I wonder why he fought in the Korean War (where it was a miracle he didn't get killed, as attested to by himself, Jerry Coleman & others)
     
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    Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

    In Response to Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best? : Babe Ruth spent 1917-18 playing baseball for the Boston Red Sox -- and God knows what else. Ted lost five years in his prime to military service. I know you are talking about "relative" numbers ( please supply data ), but those five years surely would have had an impact on Ted's numbers. Why even bring up Ruth, apparently as a response to a friend who irritates you? This thread is about Boston outfielders, full time ones.
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    Ex - I wasn't being deliberately provocative.....I came in mid-thread and obviously missed the Sox OF specific issue. Apols.

    Re relative numbers, I will call your attention to Babe Ruth hitting more home runs in 1920 than every other AL team.
     
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    Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best? : Max, you missed the whole point of this OP.  It was to show that Ellsbury had a great year.  A case can be made that it was the second best of the four.   I put it up to be cheeky towards the Ellsbury detractors.     
    Posted by tom-uk[/QUOTE]
    Your intention was perfectly clear. Too bad irrelevant topics got dragged in to muddy the focus.

     
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    Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best? : Are u kidding? Did you forget about Ruth, Cobb, & others? Perhaps you should look at their stats, as well as Ted's away stats. I'll grant you he's in the top 3.
    Posted by nhsteven[/QUOTE]

    Baseball historian, Mr. Thorn, says that if you name any one but Ruth or Williams as the greatest hitter ever, you have never been to a ball game. Obviously, Cobb is in the mix, but played in an era when a hurricane couldn't hit a ball over the outfield crowds. Also, as Ted himslf has said, the advent of the slider, night ball, and different makeup of bats and balls is unfair to Cobb. Safe to say that Ted was the greatest of anyone joining in this discussion because we have little tape and even fewer who have seen Cobb or Babe play.
     
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    Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

    In Response to Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best? : Babe Ruth spent 1917-18 playing baseball for the Boston Red Sox -- and God knows what else. Ted lost five years in his prime to military service. I know you are talking about "relative" numbers ( please supply data ), but those five years surely would have had an impact on Ted's numbers. Why even bring up Ruth, apparently as a response to a friend who irritates you? This thread is about Boston outfielders, full time ones.
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]

    Ruth played for the Red Sox from 1914 to 1919 and in 1919 played in a 130 games, only 17 as a pitcher and won 2/3 of a Triple Crown (led the league in HR and RBI) and had an OPS over 1.000.
     
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    Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

    In Response to Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best? : Ruth played for the Red Sox from 1914 to 1919 and in 1919 played in a 130 games, only 17 as a pitcher and won 2/3 of a Triple Crown (led the league in HR and RBI) and had an OPS over 1.000.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]
    Right, since the OP was about A year, I guess Ruth in 1919 qualifies. How do his numbers that year stack up against Ted's in 1941?

     
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    Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

    In Response to Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best? : Ex - I wasn't being deliberately provocative.....I came in mid-thread and obviously missed the Sox OF specific issue. Apols. Re relative numbers, I will call your attention to Babe Ruth hitting more home runs in 1920 than every other AL team.
    Posted by Chilliwings[/QUOTE]
    No harm, no foul. We've all come late to a party and raised eyebrows by mucking up an ongoing conversation. Or at least I have.
    You mean every other team combined? OK, but that was before the HR became a staple in the game. By the time Ted played, there was Joe D and Stan Musial
    and Hank Greenberg and Jimmie Foxx and Rudy York and Vern Stephens and.... Nonetheless, it's an eye-popper.

     
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    Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

    Frankly, I'm not a particular Yaz fan; much of his fame is for longevity, and if Williams hadn't lost those years, his statistics would have been totally mind boggling (.388 at 39 years old?). Imagine what he would have done in those prime years. Furthermore, Yaz never even learned to run the bases (or maybe he just never realized he wasn't that fast).  All that said, his '67 was certainly the best of the four offered to choose from here.  In fact, his statistics from that year, unlike his statistics in general, don't come anywhere near to demonstrating his true value. He carried that team in a way it's almost impossible for one player to carry a baseball team.  It was comparable to the way Russell carried the Celtics, always there when they needed that little extra, but it's easier in basketball.  All in all, it had to be the best single season performance of a Red Sox player at least since they sold Ruth.  (And for those touting Williams' '41 season, you do realize he came in second to another outfielder in the MVP vote.)
     
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    Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?

    In Response to Re: Which of these great years by a Sox OF is the best?:
    [QUOTE]Frankly, I'm not a particular Yaz fan; much of his fame is for longevity, and if Williams hadn't lost those years, his statistics would have been totally mind boggling (.388 at 39 years old?). Imagine what he would have done in those prime years. Furthermore, Yaz never even learned to run the bases (or maybe he just never realized he wasn't that fast).  All that said, his '67 was certainly the best of the four offered to choose from here.  In fact, his statistics from that year, unlike his statistics in general, don't come anywhere near to demonstrating his true value. He carried that team in a way it's almost impossible for one player to carry a baseball team.  It was comparable to the way Russell carried the Celtics, always there when they needed that little extra, but it's easier in basketball.  All in all, it had to be the best single season performance of a Red Sox player at least since they sold Ruth.  (And for those touting Williams' '41 season, you do realize he came in second to another outfielder in the MVP vote.)
    Posted by my10sense2[/QUOTE]

    Yes, Joe D won MVP in 1941. While this has nothing to do with this discusion you may look at 1941 and you will find that during the Joe D 56 game hitting streak, Ted out hit Joe during that stretch. Ted always said that Joe D was the best all around ball player ever. But when the big guy walks down the street, fans always said that there goes the greatest hitter ever. I am from Mich originally and and the marquis allways said "today Tigers vs Ted Williams" The right field stands were filled early to watch Ted take BP. I once saw him hit 17 straigt as fans raced for the balls. The Tigers stopped all their warm  ups just to watch him.Greatest ever IMO.
     
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