Who goes now? Lava, Salty, both, neither....

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from 56redsox. Show 56redsox's posts

    Re: Who goes now? Lava, Salty, both, neither....

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Ross/Lava could hit 26 HRs in 2013.




    Salty/Ross=40HRs......

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Who goes now? Lava, Salty, both, neither....

    Id rather have Anderson than Guthrie

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Who goes now? Lava, Salty, both, neither....

    You wanted Ramon last year. Your lies are legendary and plentiful. How you can say it was 2010 that you wanted Ramon is just plain disgraceful. We went at it for pages and pages on Ramon. You know it. I know it. Others paying attention know it.

    Yes, I mentioned Wakefield as an option for our 6th starter in 2012. Yes, I mentioned VTek as a possible back-up catcher to hit vs LHPs in 2012. Get over it. I am not lying about my past. You are lying about the amount I suggested offering Wake. I clearly stated that he could make $2M max by meeting performance bonus, not as a base salary. You should go work for David Axelrod or Karl Rove & Company- the masters of obfuscation.

    If you want to go on proclaiming how wrong I was about Wake and Vtek years after they are gone, I guess that is your choice, but even if I was wrong about those two, try taking a logic class or something, since the fact that someone might have been wrong twice in his lifetime, is not proof that he can never be right again. It is not evidence in the case of Ramon Hernandez. Bringing Wake & Vtek up in this argument is a sign of your weak position. If we went by your logic of "once wrong-always wrong", you'd be at the top of that list- being that you have gotten every single position wrong since Mauer re-signing with the Twins, although you were so far off on the dollar amount, it shouldn't even count in the plus column.

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from cassvt2004. Show cassvt2004's posts

    Re: Who goes now? Lava, Salty, both, neither....

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Check out Salty's clutch stats and get back to me. 25 HRs but only 59 RBIs? That is pitiful!.

    Did you bother to watch the games this year? While it might not be saying much, since our whole team was weak "when it counted", Salty was one of our best clutch hitters this year.

    Late & Close OPS (over 45 PAs):

    1) 94 Pedey .786

    2) 88 Ross   .768

    3) 78 Salty  .725

    4) 80 AGon .702

    5) 51 Ortiz  .682

    6) 47 Midd  .629

    7) 98 Aviles .604

    8) 52 Ellsb  .544

    9) 52 Nava .479

     

    RBIs in Late & Close:

    1) Ross  15/88 PAs

    2) Midd  10/47

    3) Salty  10/78

    4) AGon 10/80

    5) Pedey 9/94

     

    If you project Salty's Late & Close numbers to 640 PAs, his numbers would be:

    HR  32

    RBI 80

    That's not bad for a .214 BA in these situations.

     

     



    Thank you Moon.  I also watched vitually every game.  Although I don't have nearly the stats that you do to back up my claim, I go by the eye test, and Salty did start to show a bit more patience and better pitch selection in late august and september, when he could have just packed it in.  He is 27, and catchers generally develop later.  Its unfortunate that I start a thread, generate some good discussion, and then a silly clown will start spewing nonsense and it all goes down hill from there.

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Who goes now? Lava, Salty, both, neither....

    It is possible that all three catchers will stay as a Red Sox member including Lavarnway in the AAA.  But now Boston can have someone to use as a trade bait.  Alot of times, these teams are asking to include a veteran player or hopefully young ready future every day major league player along with prospects in return.

    What Boston is doing is to try to have as much flexibilties as they can to make a team a stronger team next year than this year!!

    I like that move, but dont like the 6.2mm dollars contract.  

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Who goes now? Lava, Salty, both, neither....

    In response to GoUconn13's comment:

    It is possible that all three catchers will stay as a Red Sox member including Lavarnway in the AAA.  But now Boston can have someone to use as a trade bait.  Alot of times, these teams are asking to include a veteran player or hopefully young ready future every day major league player along with prospects in return.

    What Boston is doing is to try to have as much flexibilties as they can to make a team a stronger team next year than this year!!

    I like that move, but dont like the 6.2mm dollars contract.  



    which makes me think we won't go into 2013 with all 3 of our catchers (salty/ross. Lava in AAA) the catching position is one of the most sought after positions in the MLB, we have a young, good offensive and improving defensive catcher in Salty who probably looks very attractive to other teams, hell, some teams don't get 25 homeruns out of all the catchers in their organization combined.

    on the other hand you have Lava, who is 25, under team control at a low cost for many years, albeit still growing as a catcher but IMO a good offensive /defensively challenged catcher is worth more than a offensive inept/solid defensive catcher. especially when you consider the MLb offensive averages for the catching position

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Who goes now? Lava, Salty, both, neither....

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to GoUconn13's comment:

    It is possible that all three catchers will stay as a Red Sox member including Lavarnway in the AAA.  But now Boston can have someone to use as a trade bait.  Alot of times, these teams are asking to include a veteran player or hopefully young ready future every day major league player along with prospects in return.

    What Boston is doing is to try to have as much flexibilties as they can to make a team a stronger team next year than this year!!

    I like that move, but dont like the 6.2mm dollars contract.  



    which makes me think we won't go into 2013 with all 3 of our catchers (salty/ross. Lava in AAA) the catching position is one of the most sought after positions in the MLB, we have a young, good offensive and improving defensive catcher in Salty who probably looks very attractive to other teams, hell, some teams don't get 25 homeruns out of all the catchers in their organization combined.

    on the other hand you have Lava, who is 25, under team control at a low cost for many years, albeit still growing as a catcher but IMO a good offensive /defensively challenged catcher is worth more than a offensive inept/solid defensive catcher. especially when you consider the MLb offensive averages for the catching position



    We are flexible to deal with 2 types of teams that need catching now and or soon:

    1) teams that need a catcher now. They are contenders who need a boost in offense from a position their opponents likely do not have. They'd want Salty, or perhaps some, who feel Lava is ready and better than what they have now as well.

    2) teams that are looking to be competitive in 2-3 years. They'll want Lava.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Who goes now? Lava, Salty, both, neither....

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to GoUconn13's comment:

    It is possible that all three catchers will stay as a Red Sox member including Lavarnway in the AAA.  But now Boston can have someone to use as a trade bait.  Alot of times, these teams are asking to include a veteran player or hopefully young ready future every day major league player along with prospects in return.

    What Boston is doing is to try to have as much flexibilties as they can to make a team a stronger team next year than this year!!

    I like that move, but dont like the 6.2mm dollars contract.  



    which makes me think we won't go into 2013 with all 3 of our catchers (salty/ross. Lava in AAA) the catching position is one of the most sought after positions in the MLB, we have a young, good offensive and improving defensive catcher in Salty who probably looks very attractive to other teams, hell, some teams don't get 25 homeruns out of all the catchers in their organization combined.

    on the other hand you have Lava, who is 25, under team control at a low cost for many years, albeit still growing as a catcher but IMO a good offensive /defensively challenged catcher is worth more than a offensive inept/solid defensive catcher. especially when you consider the MLb offensive averages for the catching position



    We are flexible to deal with 2 types of teams that need catching now and or soon:

    1) teams that need a catcher now. They are contenders who need a boost in offense from a position their opponents likely do not have. They'd want Salty, or perhaps some, who feel Lava is ready and better than what they have now as well.

    2) teams that are looking to be competitive in 2-3 years. They'll want Lava.




    and if we sign napoli we could trade both of them and put the prospects towards J Upton or another game changer without sacrificing our future

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Who goes now? Lava, Salty, both, neither....

    In response to softlaw's comment:

    How you can say it was 2010 that you wanted Ramon

    It was the winter of 2010, after the Reds declined the option. It was for the 2011 season. I went on and on last winter, for 2012, about kicking Varitek to the curb and parking Salty in AAA and going with Lavarnway and Shoppach (who, no surprise, did well in Fenway v. RHP).

    I understand you were upset with the tone "handles the pitchers CERA" Varitek being correctly kicked to the curb as I and a few others implored middle management to do, but it's not an excuse.   



    You are such a liar. You wanted RH last winter, and when he was signed to 2 years, you said we should have offered slightly more to get him. We argued into the season, and you never denied wanting him. Now you pretend it was a year earlier. 

    You are the biggest liar not running for office.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Who goes now? Lava, Salty, both, neither....

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to GoUconn13's comment:

    It is possible that all three catchers will stay as a Red Sox member including Lavarnway in the AAA.  But now Boston can have someone to use as a trade bait.  Alot of times, these teams are asking to include a veteran player or hopefully young ready future every day major league player along with prospects in return.

    What Boston is doing is to try to have as much flexibilties as they can to make a team a stronger team next year than this year!!

    I like that move, but dont like the 6.2mm dollars contract.  



    which makes me think we won't go into 2013 with all 3 of our catchers (salty/ross. Lava in AAA) the catching position is one of the most sought after positions in the MLB, we have a young, good offensive and improving defensive catcher in Salty who probably looks very attractive to other teams, hell, some teams don't get 25 homeruns out of all the catchers in their organization combined.

    on the other hand you have Lava, who is 25, under team control at a low cost for many years, albeit still growing as a catcher but IMO a good offensive /defensively challenged catcher is worth more than a offensive inept/solid defensive catcher. especially when you consider the MLb offensive averages for the catching position



    We are flexible to deal with 2 types of teams that need catching now and or soon:

    1) teams that need a catcher now. They are contenders who need a boost in offense from a position their opponents likely do not have. They'd want Salty, or perhaps some, who feel Lava is ready and better than what they have now as well.

    2) teams that are looking to be competitive in 2-3 years. They'll want Lava.




    and if we sign napoli we could trade both of them and put the prospects towards J Upton or another game changer without sacrificing our future



    Napoli is not the answer. I'd rather just extend salty at about half the cost.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Who goes now? Lava, Salty, both, neither....

    i like napolis versatility. with the injury issues we have its nice to have guys who can play multiple positions on the roster. he's not my first choice either but he still would benefit the team. but i agree, we can do better for first base

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Who goes now? Lava, Salty, both, neither....

    I dont like signing catchers to play first base because you pay a premium for the fact that they can catch.  Napoli is going to get more on the open market than he would if he was a firstbaseman.  If we sign Napoli and play him at 1B, the premium that we paid due to him being able to catch goes unrealized.

    I like Napoli.  But if we sign him, he should catch 60% of the time.  Otherwise, he's overpaid.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: Who goes now? Lava, Salty, both, neither....

    In response to Drewski5's comment:

    I dont like signing catchers to play first base because you pay a premium for the fact that they can catch.  Napoli is going to get more on the open market than he would if he was a firstbaseman.  If we sign Napoli and play him at 1B, the premium that we paid due to him being able to catch goes unrealized.

    I like Napoli.  But if we sign him, he should catch 60% of the time.  Otherwise, he's overpaid.




    I understand and agree with your point to a degree. However, there are other factors to consider that at least somewhat offset your point.

    First, there is the games played factor. At catcher you are limited to a certain number of games. He has only played more then 115 games once in his career and averaged only 104 games. At first base, you can easily play him 150, getting added value. Second, how much better of a hitter do you get with him not having to think about the pitchers and not being in that crouch 3 hours a day?

    Also, we don't know what he is signing for yet. I think his market is sure sounding more and more like the GM's are already discounting his value like you said. We will see if he gets 10-12 or 7-10 a year.

    Then there is the righty pull power premium the Red Sox should consider in maybe over paying slightly to have him at Fenway. He probably has more value for the Red Sox then the Padres or Twins.

    I personally would sign him to mostly play catcher myself. And platoon him at 1st base with a lefty like Davis or Morneau. And have him split time 50-50 with Ross at catcher. So I would still pay the premium for a catcher for the most part. But I might be in the minority.

    I would say however, inspite of all that, I would not pay quite as much for him and would be less excited about his addition, if the Red Sox have no intention of catching him more then 10% of the time.

     

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: Who goes now? Lava, Salty, both, neither....

    IMO the RS are going to trade Salty. He has some value based on 25 hr even w/ low obp. But is it all the pitchers for the decline of the RS staff. Have to believe some of the blame has to go to the guy calling the game? RS staff in slow decline since Vtek became pt player then retiring. Hopefully Mets w/ Ike Davis available and looking for cather, only problem is Lucas Duda who would replace Ike @ 1b broke his wrist moving some boxes a couple of weeks ago. As RS fan lets hope for a speedy recovery.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Who goes now? Lava, Salty, both, neither....

    I like Napoli. But if we sign him, he should catch 60% of the time. Otherwise, he's overpaid.

    If Napoli was a good catcher, I can see you point, but he isn't...so I don't.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Who goes now? Lava, Salty, both, neither....

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    I like Napoli. But if we sign him, he should catch 60% of the time. Otherwise, he's overpaid.

    If Napoli was a good catcher, I can see you point, but he isn't...so I don't.




    THe point is that a C who hits .250, 30 HR is worth more $$ than a 1B who hits .250, 30 HR.  Therefore , if you plan to play Napoli at C, you should be willing to allocate more $$ than if you are signing him to play 1B.  There is a GM out there who sees him as a C.  His defense isnt that bad.  Theoretically, this GM (who sees him as a C) should be willing to spend more for him than us (who see him as a 1B) and tehrefore outbid us.

    I'd give him 3 yrs / 33M (up to 3 yrs / 37.5) , but Id have him catch 50 games.  When he's catching, you can get either Mauro Gomez or Jerry Sands in the lineup.  If they are hot, this could be a plus.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Who goes now? Lava, Salty, both, neither....

    In response to Drewski5's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    I like Napoli. But if we sign him, he should catch 60% of the time. Otherwise, he's overpaid.

    If Napoli was a good catcher, I can see you point, but he isn't...so I don't.




    THe point is that a C who hits .250, 30 HR is worth more $$ than a 1B who hits .250, 30 HR.  Therefore , if you plan to play Napoli at C, you should be willing to allocate more $$ than if you are signing him to play 1B.  There is a GM out there who sees him as a C.  His defense isnt that bad.  Theoretically, this GM (who sees him as a C) should be willing to spend more for him than us (who see him as a 1B) and tehrefore outbid us.

    I'd give him 3 yrs / 33M (up to 3 yrs / 37.5) , but Id have him catch 50 games.  When he's catching, you can get either Mauro Gomez or Jerry Sands in the lineup.  If they are hot, this could be a plus.



    I get your point, I wasn't arguing about the theory, but instead, I am saying that Napoli is so bad at catching that he shouldn't even be considered anything more than a good emergency 3rd catcher.

    Catching 50 games is putting the team at a severe disadvantage for 50 games. Doesn't it make you wonder why the Angels won at a much higher percentage rate when one of the worst hitting catchers of our time, Mathis, caught instead of Napoli- one of the best hitting catchers during those same years?

    As a 1Bman, we can do much better with our money.

     

     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Who goes now? Lava, Salty, both, neither....

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to Drewski5's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    I like Napoli. But if we sign him, he should catch 60% of the time. Otherwise, he's overpaid.

    If Napoli was a good catcher, I can see you point, but he isn't...so I don't.




    THe point is that a C who hits .250, 30 HR is worth more $$ than a 1B who hits .250, 30 HR.  Therefore , if you plan to play Napoli at C, you should be willing to allocate more $$ than if you are signing him to play 1B.  There is a GM out there who sees him as a C.  His defense isnt that bad.  Theoretically, this GM (who sees him as a C) should be willing to spend more for him than us (who see him as a 1B) and tehrefore outbid us.

    I'd give him 3 yrs / 33M (up to 3 yrs / 37.5) , but Id have him catch 50 games.  When he's catching, you can get either Mauro Gomez or Jerry Sands in the lineup.  If they are hot, this could be a plus.



    I get your point, I wasn't arguing about the theory, but instead, I am saying that Napoli is so bad at catching that he shouldn't even be considered anything more than a good emergency 3rd catcher.

    Catching 50 games is putting the team at a severe disadvantage for 50 games. Doesn't it make you wonder why the Angels won at a much higher percentage rate when one of the worst hitting catchers of our time, Mathis, caught instead of Napoli- one of the best hitting catchers during those same years?

    As a 1Bman, we can do much better with our money.

     



    I honestly dont have the tools to assess a catcher's defensive ability / aptitude.  However, considering that he has caught 540 major league games, I would be surprised if his defense was as bad as you suggest.  I would speculate that all of that experience must ammount to something.  Especially at a position where experience is important (he has 7 yrs of experience working w pitchers, calling games...)...I wouldnt go as far as to say he is good, but I would go as far as to say that his D is good enough, where its worth it to sacrifice a little D to get his bat in your lineup (on a part time basis).

    Dont forget that Napoli is 1 yr removed from .310+, 30+ HR, 1.000 OPS.  Also , dont forget that he had nagging injuries last year and that his swing is made for Fenway.  I think that .270, 30 HR is a very reasonable projection.  He'd probably be our #4 hitter.

    We need bats. 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Who goes now? Lava, Salty, both, neither....

    Also: he's two years younger than LaRoche.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from seannybboi. Show seannybboi's posts

    Re: Who goes now? Lava, Salty, both, neither....

    In response to redsoxpride34's comment:

    this signing only makes sense if the sox have a deal in place for either salty or lava. My gut feeling is that salty is the one who will be dealt. Perhaps it could be a 3 team deal where the sox salty to one team that team sends prospects to the dbacks and the sox send a few prospects to the dbacks and get justin upton in return. 




    Sounds like Salty, Ells, Sands and a prospect to the Rangers for Andrus, Holland, and a prospect and then flip them to Zona for Justin Upton. 

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Who goes now? Lava, Salty, both, neither....

    Personally : I'd grab LaRoche, Napoli AND Cody Ross.

    If you give Ross the 8M / yr he is looking for, LaRoche and Napoli 12 M / yr a piece...That amounts to 32M/yr.

    Then you have:

    Ells

    Pedey

    Ortiz

    Napoli

    Middlebrooks

    LaRoche

    Ross

    That might be the best 1 - 7 in baseball.  There is no replacement for a well constructed lineup w/ pop throughout.  We'd be back!  For 32 M / yr too.

    I believe in signing hitters ,developing pitchers.  Hitting is more predictable. 

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from boborielly224. Show boborielly224's posts

    Re: Who goes now? Lava, Salty, both, neither....

    In response to cassvt2004's comment:

    Now that we have a RH back-up, good glove, veteran catcher, how do we see this playing out.  I feel like the fact Salty is a switch hitter who we now know is capable of hitting 25 HR, he has to stay.  As painful as it was to watch him strike out at an alarming rate in long stretches last year, he isn't a terrible hitter when he isn't trying to hit it 600 feet.  There were times when his back wasn't quite healed where he actually looked better because he was trying to go the other way.  In addition, it seemed like he was more patient and starting to draw some walks toward the end of the season.  In addition, Lavarnway may be coveted by some team out there the way Montero was when Seattle gave up a great young for him.  If it means getting  Major league ready player in return that can help us this year and going forward, I'd explore trading him.  Swihart may be only 2 years away. Thoughts?




    My personal pick would go with Lavarnway with Ross catching duels.

    After reading an article in the globe five teams for a sensible trade involving a catcher:

    Pirates: have a rhp J. mcdonald for salty plus propsect, Salty could bat very well in the national league

    Mets: have 2 players that are eye catching to the Sox Nation mngt. Dickey or Davis, Salty and some propsects for Dickey would definetly help the rotation; another knuckle baller in a sox uniform will be OK for this fan plus their arms last longer. Salty Morales and ? will get things started between Mets and Sox

    Cubs: Epstein and comapny are willing to let Garza go for a proper trade

    Chisox : Have extra starters in the rotation. If Pierynzski does not stay in Chicago then, I can see Salty being involve with a trade here

    Mariners: Vaughn could be in sox nation also involving a Salty trade

    If i want any pitcher out of the five mention, I would love to see Dickey another knuckleballer pitching for the soxs or my second choice Garza

     

     
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