Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxPatsCelts1988. Show SoxPatsCelts1988's posts

    Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    Bard clearly is not ready to take over the closers role which leaves the Sox with a very tough decision... do they now need to strongly consider re-signing Papelbon?

    Going into 2011, people were fixated on Pap's bad 2010 and pretty much accepted the fact that this would be Papelbon's last season with the Sox and Bard would more than likely take over the closer's role... Now, not so far.

    Does this now stem into an even bigger question?  Will the Sox re-sign both Ortiz and Papelbon?  Is it safe to say that only one of them will be back with the team?  If so, which one?

    Ortiz has had one of the best seasons of his career.  Sure it's a contract year, but he may have priced himself out of Boston's range and may even be able to get a 3 year deal.  Will the Sox turn to a cheaper alternative or maybe even Youkis for the DH role?

    If you had to pick one, who would you pick?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from athens7676. Show athens7676's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    I would say that Paps (while not nearly as important to Red Sox HISTORY) is way more important going forward. Ortiz is a great player, and probably the 2nd best full time DH of all-time (Behind Edgar Martinez) yet he is still 35 or older (depending on how accurate birth info is) and quality closers, especially consistent ones, are almost impossible to find. Bard was the heir-apparent, yet he seems more & more hittable as time goes on. I do think they can re-sign both guys though. Although, I would be WAY more concerned about locking up this years team MVP Ellsbury, than I would Ortiz. Ellsbury is young, fast, and has more power than previously expected. I would be making sure he was in CF for years to come, as I wouldn't want to see that gorgeous swing anyplace else (like NY 4 example). I think Ortiz will and should take less to stay in the place that picked him up off the scrap heap, and gave him the chance to become a star.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from william93063. Show william93063's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    In Response to Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?:
    [QUOTE]I would say that Paps (while not nearly as important to Red Sox HISTORY) is way more important going forward. Ortiz is a great player, and probably the 2nd best full time DH of all-time (Behind Edgar Martinez) yet he is still 35 or older (depending on how accurate birth info is) and quality closers, especially consistent ones, are almost impossible to find. Bard was the heir-apparent, yet he seems more & more hittable as time goes on. I do think they can re-sign both guys though. Although, I would be WAY more concerned about locking up this years team MVP Ellsbury, than I would Ortiz. Ellsbury is young, fast, and has more power than previously expected. I would be making sure he was in CF for years to come, as I wouldn't want to see that gorgeous swing anyplace else (like NY 4 example). I think Ortiz will and should take less to stay in the place that picked him up off the scrap heap, and gave him the chance to become a star.
    Posted by athens7676[/QUOTE]

    I agree with everything you've said accept your assessment of Papi. Ortiz "off of the scrap heap"?  Seriously that is so dismissive and disrespectful I don't even know where to begin?  His numbers even at 35 are spectacular.  He is 3rd in the AL in OPS ABOVE both Gonzo and Ells.  His value is as important to this team as Paps.  He is not "history" by any stretch. He is far and away the best DH in the league and probably has 2-3 good years left.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    Pitching wins Championships---I would sign Pap. I would make Papi a reasonable offer of $20 M for two years that would include a third year option.

    This would be the year if I were Ells and Boras to negotiate with the Sox; next year he might not put up the numbers as he goes to FAgency.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    Paps. Bard is not the answer for the Sox as closer. He has 8 losses already this season. That is a lot. As for Ortiz, I am sure if he does not want to stay for the Sox offer, another person can step in as DH.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from tetonman50. Show tetonman50's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    If it really came down to only being able to sign one or the other, I would have to go with Ortiz. 

    I agree that, Starting pitching wins championships, but you can't win games if you don't score runs, no matter how good your starting pitching is. This year we have seen a lot of great starting pitching wasted on games we could not score even a couple of runs in. 

    Closers like Papelbon, typically only have impact in those games we are ahead in the very late innings. I will agree however that the sight of them warming up probably does also some influence even before they take the ball.  

    Ortiz has direct impact most games all 9 innings. He puts great stress on the opposing pitcher during his at bat, and also helps to influence how that pitcher deals with those immediatly around him in the line up as well.   

    I really think if I were calling the shots, I would worry first about fixing the problems with our starting pitching. I would then make sure our line up is solid top to bottom which means we need first to sign Ortiz. Then I would worry about who I can find to get three guys out in the 9th inning before blowing any lead.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from athens7676. Show athens7676's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    In Response to Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon? : I agree with everything you've said accept your assessment of Papi. Ortiz "off of the scrap heap"?  Seriously that is so dismissive and disrespectful I don't even know where to begin?  His numbers even at 35 are spectacular.  He is 3rd in the AL in OPS ABOVE both Gonzo and Ells.  His value is as important to this team as Paps.  He is not "history" by any stretch. He is far and away the best DH in the league and probably has 2-3 good years left.
    Posted by william93063[/QUOTE]

    You misinterpreted what I said... what I said was that Papi was given a chance and taken off the scrap heap and signed by the Sox after he was released, after a couple of unremarkable seasons by the Twins. He was NOT a highly sought after commodity coming off of two seasons in which he hit .234 & .272 respectively. I certainly don't mean he is on the scrap heap now, and I like and enjoy him as a ballplayer very, very much. Which is why I called him the 2nd greatest DH of all-time behind Edgar Martinez. Sorry if that came out wrong.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from athens7676. Show athens7676's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    I still thinking locking up the AL's best player this year in Ellsbury for a long term contract is the most important move fot Sox going forward.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    Pap.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    Yeah, I think this one might be unanimous. Though I would love Papi back as well.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from william93063. Show william93063's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    In Response to Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon? : You misinterpreted what I said... what I said was that Papi was given a chance and taken off the scrap heap and signed by the Sox after he was released, after a couple of unremarkable seasons by the Twins. He was NOT a highly sought after commodity coming off of two seasons in which he hit .234 & .272 respectively. I certainly don't mean he is on the scrap heap now, and I like and enjoy him as a ballplayer very, very much. Which is why I called him the 2nd greatest DH of all-time behind Edgar Martinez. Sorry if that came out wrong.
    Posted by athens7676[/QUOTE]

    No problem!  I am fiercely protective of the big guy!  He has been as pivotal in transforming the fortunes of this franchise as anyone!  He is the closest thing any of us will see to Babe Ruth in his heyday and obviously Papi is not nearly as good but he's still pretty good!
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from the--crawful. Show the--crawful's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    neither. i would go with either CRAWFUL or INEPSTEIN.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Diamondtalk. Show Diamondtalk's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    In Response to Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?:
    [QUOTE]I still thinking locking up the AL's best player this year in Ellsbury for a long term contract is the most important move fot Sox going forward.
    Posted by athens7676[/QUOTE]

    It would seem the most logical thing to do although Scott Boras is his agent and doesn't do hometown discounts.
    Teams no longer pay big money for a DH and at the age Ortiz is, his batting skills could decine quickly.    He should be happy if he gets a 1-year deal of $8-10M with a team option for a 2nd year.
    Papelbon has said he wants to test the market.   Even if the Sox eventually re-sign him, he won't come cheap.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from phxvlsoxfan. Show phxvlsoxfan's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    I do not agree with the assumption that Ortiz will be in line for a 3 yr deal anywhere.  Look at the recent histroy with Vlad Guerrero and other full time DHs.  Papi will be lucky to get 1 yr/$12M with an player's option for a second year.  He needs the Sox more than the Sox need him.

    Paps is valuable but can be replaced if his price is too high.  Don't eliminate Bard just yet.  I think his meltdown is due to overwork (ditto Albers), and that should not be the case in a traditional closer role.  I have yet to see a high priced free agent closer/stopper actually earn the contract (aside from Mariano, of course, but he's not of this world).  Such a fine line between stud and dud.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxlaxer12. Show redsoxlaxer12's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    you know all of that money that some of the nutjobs on this board think we can use to sign Pujols or Fielder.......yea how about use it to re sign Papelbon Papi Ellsbury and Bedard
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from athens7676. Show athens7676's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    In Response to Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon? : No problem!  I am fiercely protective of the big guy!  He has been as pivotal in transforming the fortunes of this franchise as anyone!  He is the closest thing any of us will see to Babe Ruth in his heyday and obviously Papi is not nearly as good but he's still pretty good!
    Posted by william93063[/QUOTE]

    I don't blame you for being protective of him at all! Shows you are a good fan! As a Braves fan I am protective of Chipper in much the same way!
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    Bard clearly is not ready to take over the closers role which leaves the Sox with a very tough decision... do they now need to strongly consider re-signing Papelbon?

    1) It's not "clear". A bad stretch here and there is common for Paps as well.

    2) Paps will cost a lot. He's not Mo. If he walks we will miss him greatly, but with the money "saved" we can get 2 nice set up guys to support Bard. The draft picks we'd get for Paps might tilt the balance towards Theo not budging from the set price he offers.

    Going into 2011, people were fixated on Pap's bad 2010 and pretty much accepted the fact that this would be Papelbon's last season with the Sox and Bard would more than likely take over the closer's role... Now, not so far.

    So, what if this is Bard's year before a turn around...not that this year has been bad. Until the last few games, Bard had incredible numbers.

    Does this now stem into an even bigger question?  Will the Sox re-sign both Ortiz and Papelbon?  Is it safe to say that only one of them will be back with the team?  If so, which one?

    It would be hard to replace Youk at 3B (assuming Youk would DH if Papi walks). It would be hard to replace Paps as well. If I had to choose one, I'd keep Papi. I think Bard replaces Paps better than lowrie/Aviles replace Papi. Now, Lavarnway might change the picture, but I seriously doubt that Theo counts on him to replace Papi's numbers and leadership skills.

    Ortiz has had one of the best seasons of his career.  Sure it's a contract year, but he may have priced himself out of Boston's range and may even be able to get a 3 year deal.  Will the Sox turn to a cheaper alternative or maybe even Youkis for the DH role?

    DH'ing Youk makes a ton of sense. His bat is vital to our success. We can't afford him to keep getting hurt like he has been the last 3 years. However, Youk's mentality may not be well suited for a DH role.

    It's a tricky problem.

    If you had to pick one, who would you pick?

    Our hero, Papi.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    If he walks we will miss him greatly, but with the money "saved" we can get 2 nice set up guys to support Bard.

    2 nice set up guys and Bard never proving himself in the high stress situations that Papelbon is proven, doesn't cut it. Papelbon is a must retention, ups and downs from year to year not withstanding. 2 setup guys in and Papelbon out makes pen weak.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BeaconHill19. Show BeaconHill19's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    Someone on another thread stated that the Red Sox could afford to sign both Papelbon and Ortiz this winter. Wouldn't that be the first question to consider?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from athens7676. Show athens7676's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    Why can't they keep all 3? At the very least keep Paps and make sure you re-sign Ellsbury to a long term deal. He is going to be a key to the long term success.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from sindarin-erebor. Show sindarin-erebor's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    Neither, they will both be gone next year.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from BeaconHill19. Show BeaconHill19's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    In Response to Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?:
    [QUOTE]Neither, they will both be gone next year.
    Posted by sindarin-erebor[/QUOTE]

    Yankee or TB fan??
    http://www.boston.com/community/persona.html?UID=f1f73bbd4ae3988dc67e60457a63c9e6&plckUserId=f1f73bbd4ae3988dc67e60457a63c9e6
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    At the very least keep Paps and make sure you re-sign Ellsbury to a long term deal

    Crawford is signed for 142M. Aside from the absurdity of meeting Boras FA demands what is your specific contract offer for Ellsbury?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    In Response to Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?:
    [QUOTE]Paps. Bard is not the answer for the Sox as closer. He has 8 losses already this season. That is a lot. As for Ortiz, I am sure if he does not want to stay for the Sox offer, another person can step in as DH.
    Posted by antiqueman1[/QUOTE]

    I definitely agree with you about Papelbon.  It is very important to resign him this year.   I also hope that the Red Sox can resign Ortiz, but believe that resigning Papelbon is more important. 
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Who's more valuable to the future of this team: Ortiz or Papelbon?

    If you ask me to pick one, I would take Papelbon.  Bard isnt ready to be a closer yet.  Plus he is so far a good set up man.  If Papelbon goes, and move Bard to closer, then we need to find a new set up man.  Wait until the young kid name Barnes starts to develop in the minor league, then who know he could be the next set up man or closer at the same time Boston can decide where to put Bard.  

    For Papi, he is 35 years old man going to be 36 years old next year at the same time he already been injured proned player.  I do not mind him coming back too, but more likely again for one year contract or two years contract including option contract year for the second year.  I am sure that Oritz knows that Boston isnt going to give him three plus years contract at the same time he may finally walk from the club!!


     

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