Why all the LOVE for FAT-CAT-BECKETT$ ?? In the last days of THEOS WATCH...........

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why all the LOVE for FAT-CAT-BECKETT$ ?? In the last days of THEOS WATCH...........

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Jim was lamenting the trade moon...and you are still making excuses for beckett's inconsistencies...

    No, others were saying his inconsistencies were a result of being out of shape and or his attitude manefested by the beer and chicken gate.

    I recognize we are all human. Beckett might have done better had he stayed in better shape- he might not. I'm not making any excuses, because I don't really know if there is a reason or reasons why he did poorly every other year.

    i gess if you cant sabermetric it, you cant analyze it...

    I have never said he did good or great every year. I never said he was worth the money of the extension. I am just saying that many here seem to be forgetting how he led us to a ring. Is anyone blaming Schill for being too heavy in 2008 and costing us $8M (big money back then) for no innings?  I know I am not.

    yea he was great in 2007, but he has cost us more than a few seasons..especially 2011

    This is what really irks me. Without Beckett's 2011 season, we never come close to making the playoffs. Just because the very few bad games he had in 2011 came at the end, you say he "cost us". That is totally absurd, and it is you who is now "making excuses" by blaming our best pitcher that season for our loss.

    any opinion of beckett's career without mentioning his work ethic, attitude, and corosive influence is a joke...

    How was his attitude in 2003 and 2007? How was Reggie Jackson's attitude? You are over-valuing the influence of one player's attitude on a team. If we had 5 Beckett's on our staff, we'd have many more rings right now. That's not an excuse: that's a fact.




     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Why all the LOVE for FAT-CAT-BECKETT$ ?? In the last days of THEOS WATCH...........

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to Ice-Cream's comment:

     

     

    Thanks to Beckett's stellar performance in game 5 of the 2007 ALCS vs. the Indians, the Red Sox were able to advance to the World Series and win it all.  

    When Beckett returns to Fenway, he deserves a warm applause.  

     



    How soon we forget.

     

    Before we ever won a ring, Sox fans seemed to love the bumbling players. Bill Lee, Greenwell, and others, but once we got the taste of victory, fans expect perfection every year from every player.

    Beckett is human. He nearly single-handedly got us the 2007 ring.  He has made mistakes. Some choose to remember only the latter. Some the former. Some the overall body of work.

    How many starting pitchers in our memory have the Sox have that pitched better in the playoffs?

    Schilling & Beckett. Is that enough for you guys to lighten up a bit on a fellow human being? 

     

     



    I've always tried to give our players the benefit of the doubt if at all possible, most especially those involved in one or both recent titles. I'd say contributing to a Red Sox World Series earns one a considerable reserve of fan loyalty to draw upon when things get tough.

     

    Perhaps that is "polyanna-ish"...and in practice, it leads to defending guys like Beckett and Manny long after they probably stopped deserving it. But I'd rather err on that side of things than become a miserable fan who hates the team and most of the players at any given time. Obviously you've got to take the good and the bad into account together, but I just don't see the point of holding grudges against former players or staff long after they've left the team rather than trying to remember the positive things they accomplished first and foremost.

    Seems like some people only view things in black and white extremes. Theo made some bad signings and trades, therefore he was a complete bum; Francona was not a perfect manager and made some mistakes, therefore he is a complete bum. The overall results don't seem to matter. With Beckett, the overall results were mixed at best...Hfx's post lays it all out pretty well. I remember being psyched when we acquired him at age 25 or 26 and thinking we'd gotten a young ace for years to come, and it never quite worked out that way except for 2007 and chunks of a couple of other seasons. But years from now when we're talking about his legacy in Boston, hopefully 2007 will matter a lot more and be remembered more than 2011 and 2012. That's as it should be.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why all the LOVE for FAT-CAT-BECKETT$ ?? In the last days of THEOS WATCH...........

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Beckett had a brilliant year in 2007 that should always be appreciated.  But at the end of the day I have to say his Boston career was a disappointment.

    2006 5.01 ERA
    2008 pitched well most of the year but injured at the end
    2009 pitched well about 2/3 of the year then pitched badly at the end
    2010 injured, 5.78 ERA
    2011 pitched well until September, got injured and pitched badly in crucial final starts
    2012 injuries, 5.23 ERA

    Out of 7 seasons, really only one where you felt he pitched up to his abilities for a whole season.



    I guess if you are 100% sure his injuries were caused by being out of shape or a poor attitude, then partially blaming him for our decline is justified.

    None of us will ever know for a fact why he had "off years", but some here act like they know it all.

    You were being pretty selective in your choice of stats by claiming he had only 1 year out of 7 where he pitched to "his abilities". For one thing, have you and others here ever thought his drive and attitude might have helped him pitch "above his abilities" in 2003 and 2007 and other years? That maybe he pushed too hard and that is what caused him to break down late in some seasons? Is that even a slight possibility? (I'm not saying it is, but my point is, we will never know.)

    2006: His 1st year in the AL and in one of the toughest hitting divisions of the roid era, he still managed to go 16-11 in 33 starts and 205 IP. True- maybe not the best of his abilities, but what pitcher does his best every year?

    2007: Legendary season (20-7  3.27 1.14 WHIP) The playoffs were superb.

    2008: 27 starts. 7th in AL in WHIP, but poor luck = 12-10  4.03

    2009: 32 starts and the most IP in his career w BOS (212) 17-6  3.86 Come on! You really expected 2007 x 7 years? Is every pitcher not living up to his expectations because they don't repeat their career year every year?

    2010: Lost season with only 21 GS. Clearly injury-related numbers.

    2011: He actually pitched better than in 2007. 4th in WHIP (1.026) and his best ERA with Boston (2.89). He had 30 starts, and people want to blame him for 3 missed starts and 2 poor ill-timed starts- forgetting that he only let up 7 ERS inhis previous 4 starts vs TEX, NYY, TOR & TBR. The guy got no support from his teammates all year. He bailed them out countless times, but when he pitches 2 poor games- all the blame is his.

    How about this?

    No Decisions:

    IP  ER

    8    2

    4.1 0

    6    1

    6    3

    8    0

    6    2

    6    1

    3.2  0 (left injured)

    Or some of his losses...

    5   3

    6   2

    7   3

     

    Although he only went 13-7, the team went 20-10 in his starts. That's pretty good to not be "at your abilities".

     

    You guys need to stop blaming 1 player for 2011. And if you have to choose one player, it is absurd to put Josh at the top of your list.

     

     

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Why all the LOVE for FAT-CAT-BECKETT$ ?? In the last days of THEOS WATCH...........

    I agree Beckett never did get enough credit for how good he was for most of 2009 and 2011, and I argued so at the time. After a slow start in '09 he was arguably the best in the game from May through mid-August (look it up) until the final weeks ballooned his numbers, and in '11 his ERA was still close to 2.00 in August and <2.50 as late as mid-September. That's damn impressive. I really wonder how differently he'd be viewed now had he not gotten hurt and/or inconsistent for a few starts at the end of those two years (2010 and 2012 notwithstanding).

    (For what it's worth, it seems like Lester has been prone to similarly poor starts/finishes, which have turned a couple of possibly Cy-worthy seasons into merely very good ones.)

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: Why all the LOVE for FAT-CAT-BECKETT$ ?? In the last days of THEOS WATCH...........

    I still do not know how or why people say he was out of shape? Many say you can see it ???

    gee then guys like SBathia and Fielder must be grossly out of shape.

    however in or out of shape is dependent on the individual.

    Saying a player is out of shape due to what you see at a game, on TV or in pictures is pure BS speculation. Using it as a reason based upon your observations to bolster your theory is also BS.

     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Why all the LOVE for FAT-CAT-BECKETT$ ?? In the last days of THEOS WATCH...........

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

    In response to JimfromFlorida's comment:

     

    I still do not know how or why people say he was out of shape? Many say you can see it ???

    gee then guys like SBathia and Fielder must be grossly out of shape.

    however in or out of shape is dependent on the individual.

    Saying a player is out of shape due to what you see at a game, on TV or in pictures is pure BS speculation. Using it as a reason based upon your observations to bolster your theory is also BS.

     

    Jim,    Chicken (good fried chicken) & BEER will always be a double edge soward.......  In "BECKETT$" case, a "DOUBLE EDGE TIRE" !!!!   Speaks volumes !!!

     




    Still hating on the Red Sox Bill? Good to see some things never change.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Why all the LOVE for FAT-CAT-BECKETT$ ?? In the last days of THEOS WATCH...........

    This board needs a "Quote(s) of the Day" to be displayed at the top of the page or something. I nominate "Fried chicken and beer will always be a double edged sword."

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Why all the LOVE for FAT-CAT-BECKETT$ ?? In the last days of THEOS WATCH...........

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    Beckett had a brilliant year in 2007 that should always be appreciated.  But at the end of the day I have to say his Boston career was a disappointment.

    2006 5.01 ERA
    2008 pitched well most of the year but injured at the end
    2009 pitched well about 2/3 of the year then pitched badly at the end
    2010 injured, 5.78 ERA
    2011 pitched well until September, got injured and pitched badly in crucial final starts
    2012 injuries, 5.23 ERA

    Out of 7 seasons, really only one where you felt he pitched up to his abilities for a whole season.

     



    I guess if you are 100% sure his injuries were caused by being out of shape or a poor attitude, then partially blaming him for our decline is justified.

     

    None of us will ever know for a fact why he had "off years", but some here act like they know it all.

    You were being pretty selective in your choice of stats by claiming he had only 1 year out of 7 where he pitched to "his abilities". For one thing, have you and others here ever thought his drive and attitude might have helped him pitch "above his abilities" in 2003 and 2007 and other years? That maybe he pushed too hard and that is what caused him to break down late in some seasons? Is that even a slight possibility? (I'm not saying it is, but my point is, we will never know.)

    2006: His 1st year in the AL and in one of the toughest hitting divisions of the roid era, he still managed to go 16-11 in 33 starts and 205 IP. True- maybe not the best of his abilities, but what pitcher does his best every year?

    2007: Legendary season (20-7  3.27 1.14 WHIP) The playoffs were superb.

    2008: 27 starts. 7th in AL in WHIP, but poor luck = 12-10  4.03

    2009: 32 starts and the most IP in his career w BOS (212) 17-6  3.86 Come on! You really expected 2007 x 7 years? Is every pitcher not living up to his expectations because they don't repeat their career year every year?

    2010: Lost season with only 21 GS. Clearly injury-related numbers.

    2011: He actually pitched better than in 2007. 4th in WHIP (1.026) and his best ERA with Boston (2.89). He had 30 starts, and people want to blame him for 3 missed starts and 2 poor ill-timed starts- forgetting that he only let up 7 ERS inhis previous 4 starts vs TEX, NYY, TOR & TBR. The guy got no support from his teammates all year. He bailed them out countless times, but when he pitches 2 poor games- all the blame is his.

    How about this?

    No Decisions:

    IP  ER

    8    2

    4.1 0

    6    1

    6    3

    8    0

    6    2

    6    1

    3.2  0 (left injured)

    Or some of his losses...

    5   3

    6   2

    7   3

     

    Although he only went 13-7, the team went 20-10 in his starts. That's pretty good to not be "at your abilities".

     

    You guys need to stop blaming 1 player for 2011. And if you have to choose one player, it is absurd to put Josh at the top of your list.

     

     

     



    i agree moon. 1 guy who pitches every 5th day can't be the sole reason we lost in 2011 when we went 7-20 in the final month..... did beckett pitch every game? what about the rest of our pitching staff? what about our offense? aside from jacoby and pedroia who else was hitting well in the final month? no one. they win as a team and they lose as a team. But to put the entire collapse on the shoulders of 1 guy who does not even play everyday is just people being DBags..

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Why all the LOVE for FAT-CAT-BECKETT$ ?? In the last days of THEOS WATCH...........

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think anybody is trying to pin the 2011 collapse solely on Beckett..not even georom.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Why all the LOVE for FAT-CAT-BECKETT$ ?? In the last days of THEOS WATCH...........

    In response to georom4's comment:

    yea he was great in 2007, but he has cost us more than a few seasons..especially 2011



     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Why all the LOVE for FAT-CAT-BECKETT$ ?? In the last days of THEOS WATCH...........

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

     

    BECKETT$ was given 64 mil as an underperforming, overrated, the he!! with the team attitude........  And Bill-806 is constantly taken to task by "T-BALLERS OF THE BOARD" WHO HAVE NOT EMBRACED THE FACT that Ben C & LUCCIANNOS are darn lucky that they dumped him !!!

     



    I haven't seen much "love" for Beckett Bill.  Only "love" for facts that get in the way of your overstatement.  No doubt Josh was inconsistent, injury-prone (thus the inconsistency) and poor in conditioning (thus the injury-prone).  So, in the end, I am not upset with the unloading if his contract, especially given his overall mediocre performance of 2012.  But, it is good to get some facts injected into your endless litany of over-simplified Fat Cats.  Us T-Ballers are hardly giving Beckett love when we point out that his 2009 season was very strong and his 2011, prior to injury, was better than his 07.  

     


    Just saw this thread.

    Good post spaceman. This thread could have ended here as you summed it up perfectly.

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Why all the LOVE for FAT-CAT-BECKETT$ ?? In the last days of THEOS WATCH...........

    beckett was the catalyst for the collapse...this has been mentioned many times by many different sources regarding his attitude, work ethic, and influence on the staff as the "leader"....furthermore his record of fading by august due to injuries caused by beer bloat is also clearly seen....

     

    anyone who tries to pull a Pike and deflect blame by naming everyone and therefore no one is clearly lying....lots of players played hard that month...but the two main culprits were beckett and his pitching homies and francona for being too wacked out/tired to care

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why all the LOVE for FAT-CAT-BECKETT$ ?? In the last days of THEOS WATCH...........

    ... But years from now when we're talking about his legacy in Boston, hopefully 2007 will matter a lot more and be remembered more than 2011 and 2012. That's as it should be.

    I hope so, but I never thought of 2011 as a bad year by Josh. He had a tremendous season with 2 bad styarts at the wrong time. This is baseball. Even the great players have 2 bad games in a row many times in a career.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why all the LOVE for FAT-CAT-BECKETT$ ?? In the last days of THEOS WATCH...........

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think anybody is trying to pin the 2011 collapse solely on Beckett..not even georom.



    I'm corecting you. Geo did blame Josh solely. Bill acts like he spread the cancer. Others have been nearly as bad.

    Beckett wasn't even 1% of the reason we lost in 2011, in fact he was on the plus side.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why all the LOVE for FAT-CAT-BECKETT$ ?? In the last days of THEOS WATCH...........

    beckett was the catalyst for the collapse...

    Beckett was the "catalyst" for us even ever having a chance in 2011. Without him, we're never in the lead to allow for a cvhance at a collapse.

    You don't get it.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Why all the LOVE for FAT-CAT-BECKETT$ ?? In the last days of THEOS WATCH...........

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think anybody is trying to pin the 2011 collapse solely on Beckett..not even georom.

     



    I'm corecting you. Geo did blame Josh solely. Bill acts like he spread the cancer. Others have been nearly as bad.

     

    Beckett wasn't even 1% of the reason we lost in 2011, in fact he was on the plus side.




    Beckett did more to help us win in 2011 than he did to cause us to lose. that is a fact. anyone who claims otherwise needs a lobotomy.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Why all the LOVE for FAT-CAT-BECKETT$ ?? In the last days of THEOS WATCH...........

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    ... But years from now when we're talking about his legacy in Boston, hopefully 2007 will matter a lot more and be remembered more than 2011 and 2012. That's as it should be.

    I hope so, but I never thought of 2011 as a bad year by Josh. He had a tremendous season with 2 bad styarts at the wrong time. This is baseball. Even the great players have 2 bad games in a row many times in a career.




    And I agree with you (see my 2nd post on this page)...to suggest he didn't have an excellent season statistically is just ignorant, but unfortunately what people mostly remember about 2011 is what happened in September that led to the RS missing the playoffs. Rightly or wrongly, Beckett was linked pretty strongly with that in people's minds. That's really all I meant.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why all the LOVE for FAT-CAT-BECKETT$ ?? In the last days of THEOS WATCH...........

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think anybody is trying to pin the 2011 collapse solely on Beckett..not even georom.

     



    I'm corecting you. Geo did blame Josh solely. Bill acts like he spread the cancer. Others have been nearly as bad.

     

    Beckett wasn't even 1% of the reason we lost in 2011, in fact he was on the plus side.

     




    Beckett did more to help us win in 2011 than he did to cause us to lose. that is a fact. anyone who claims otherwise needs a lobotomy.

     



    Josh started 30 games in 2011.

    The team went 20-10 in his starts, including 6 losses where he let up 

    0 ER in 3.2 IP

    0 ER in 4.1 IP

    2 ER in 6 IP

    3 ER in 7 IP

    3 ER in 5 IP

    4 ER in 6 IP

    With just a little bit of luck, the team could have gone 24-6 or 25-5, but those2 last games cancels out everything for some clowns here.

    There is not way a SP who goes 193 IP with a 2.89 ERA (his career best)and 1.026 WHIP (his career best) is even remotely responsible for a team losing by 1 game.

    This isn't making excuses. It's presenting the facts. 2011 was Beckett's finest regular season of his career. How many other Sox players had their career best year's in 2011? ( Just Ellsbury)

    Was Papi out of shape in Sept '11? Does he set a good example as a leader by not running out GBs? (BTW, he had his worst month in 2011 that Sept -just 2 rbi after Sept 16th). I'm not blaming Papi at all here. This is baseball not basketball. I'm just bringing up his numbers as proof that it was a team effort all year, not just the ending.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why all the LOVE for FAT-CAT-BECKETT$ ?? In the last days of THEOS WATCH...........

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    ... But years from now when we're talking about his legacy in Boston, hopefully 2007 will matter a lot more and be remembered more than 2011 and 2012. That's as it should be.

    I hope so, but I never thought of 2011 as a bad year by Josh. He had a tremendous season with 2 bad styarts at the wrong time. This is baseball. Even the great players have 2 bad games in a row many times in a career.

     




     

    And I agree with you (see my 2nd post on this page)...to suggest he didn't have an excellent season statistically is just ignorant, but unfortunately what people mostly remember about 2011 is what happened in September that led to the RS missing the playoffs. Rightly or wrongly, Beckett was linked pretty strongly with that in people's minds. That's really all I meant.



    ...I understand your point, but it is absurd for people to think like this. This is worse than Billy Buckner's treatment... and less deserving as well.

     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Why all the LOVE for FAT-CAT-BECKETT$ ?? In the last days of THEOS WATCH...........

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think anybody is trying to pin the 2011 collapse solely on Beckett..not even georom.

     



    I'm corecting you. Geo did blame Josh solely. Bill acts like he spread the cancer. Others have been nearly as bad.



    OK.  When you replied to my post you said 'you guys', apparently including me in the group of people who pin 2011 solely on Beckett.  I've never done that.  Our entire pitching staff melted down in September, 2011, so one player certainly can't be blamed.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why all the LOVE for FAT-CAT-BECKETT$ ?? In the last days of THEOS WATCH...........

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think anybody is trying to pin the 2011 collapse solely on Beckett..not even georom.

     



    I'm corecting you. Geo did blame Josh solely. Bill acts like he spread the cancer. Others have been nearly as bad.

     



    OK.  When you replied to my post you said 'you guys', apparently including me in the group of people who pin 2011 solely on Beckett.  I've never done that.  Our entire pitching staff melted down in September, 2011, so one player certainly can't be blamed.

     



    Sorry for lumping you in with Geo.

    My apologies.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Why all the LOVE for FAT-CAT-BECKETT$ ?? In the last days of THEOS WATCH...........

    The fact that it was a team meltdown is a fact that escapes too many fans.

    Lester had ERA in September. Horrible, right? Now let's look deeper at his starts.

    5 IP, 1 ER. Yes he should have gone deeper, but it's hardly a bad start.

    7 IP, 0 ER. Nuff said.

    4 IP, 4 ER. His first bad start.

    7 IP, 4 ER. Not a great start but hardly a terrible one. Mediocre to be sure, but he gave the Sox the chance to win.

    2.2 IP, 8 ER. His second bad start.

    6.0 IP, 2 ER. Good start.

    So in six starts, he had three good starts to great starts, one mediocre start and two bad starts, and he gave the Sox the chance to win in four of his six starts.

    BUT...

    The Sox scored more than three runs in just ONE of his six starts -- the 14-0 win. In the other five starts, the Sox scored 2, 1, 3, 1, 3.

    Lester went 1-3 with two ND in September. He could have gone 9 IP, 3 ER in all six starts (3.00 ERA) and his record still would have been 1-3 with 2 ND.

    But of course,  it's all about the chicken and beer.

     
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