Why Blame Ownership?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from user_3615329. Show user_3615329's posts

    Why Blame Ownership?

    I don't understand why ownership is taking so much flak. Have they not given us 2 WS flags? Haven't they given us a competitive team every year? Haven't they done a marvelous job of improving Fenway? Haven't they spent "whatever it takes" to give us the best chance of winning? Haven't they been the franchise's best ownership? Have they not been the ideal corporate citizens? Are they not the best ownership in all of professional sport? Are we not very lucky to have them? Do we want them to sell out?
    The blame rests squarely, first, on the undisciplened players, secondly, on Tito and his coaches for permitting such unresponsible behavior and for being unable to stem the bleeding, and, to a lesser degree, on Theo for giving Tito too much rope. Sure, ownership has some blame; but, not to the extent I am reading and hearing. If they're to be faulted, it's for being too good.
    I endured decades of frustration. I well remember how it was before this ownership arrived. I don't want to return to those dark days. I am very thankful for what this group has done for us Sox fans. So, how about a little support from The Nation and a lot less blame? It's unwarranted!!!!
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?

    i agree...how dare the ownership give hundreds of millions of dollars to lazy coaches and players???  yea it's their fault - maybe they should have gifted them $500 headphones instead for suffering through a doubleheader...
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from gbman87603. Show gbman87603's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?

    In Response to Why Blame Ownership?:
    [QUOTE]I don't understand why ownership is taking so much flak. Have they not given us 2 WS flags? Haven't they given us a competitive team every year? Haven't they done a marvelous job of improving Fenway? Haven't they spent "whatever it takes" to give us the best chance of winning? Haven't they been the franchise's best ownership? Have they not been the ideal corporate citizens? Are they not the best ownership in all of professional sport? Are we not very lucky to have them? Do we want them to sell out? The blame rests squarely, first, on the undisciplened players, secondly, on Tito and his coaches for permitting such unresponsible behavior and for being unable to stem the bleeding, and, to a lesser degree, on Theo for giving Tito too much rope. Sure, ownership has some blame; but, not to the extent I am reading and hearing. If they're to be faulted, it's for being too good. I endured decades of frustration. I well remember how it was before this ownership arrived. I don't want to return to those dark days. I am very thankful for what this group has done for us Sox fans. So, how about a little support from The Nation and a lot less blame? It's unwarranted!!!!
    Posted by 65972a02a6570b41bd88b577ef4d91e2[/QUOTE]

    I stopped at "havent they given us a competitive team every year"......whats your definition of competitive? 3rd place 2 years in a row with 160+ million dollar payroll? Or not making the playoffs or being bounced in the 1st round 3 out of the last 4 years?

    They have helped build a team of overpaid babies and they dont want to take responsibilty for it....so they start stories about others who were part of the failure, others who already did their part in taking responsibilty for this teams failures (Francona / Epstein).
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from crmn19. Show crmn19's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?



    Not that you should micromanage, but the level of ignorance they professed in yesterday's investigative piece is astounding, especially considering at least Luchino is a long-time baseball guy.  There is blame to go around, as the saying goes - "The fish stinks from the head."

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from borack. Show borack's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?

    i don't blame ownership; i thank ownership for finally getting rid of two guys who overstayed their welcome. thank you!
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from pschuller. Show pschuller's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?

    In Response to Why Blame Ownership?:
    [QUOTE]I don't understand why ownership is taking so much flak. Have they not given us 2 WS flags? Haven't they given us a competitive team every year? Haven't they done a marvelous job of improving Fenway? Haven't they spent "whatever it takes" to give us the best chance of winning? Haven't they been the franchise's best ownership? Have they not been the ideal corporate citizens? Are they not the best ownership in all of professional sport? Are we not very lucky to have them? Do we want them to sell out? The blame rests squarely, first, on the undisciplened players, secondly, on Tito and his coaches for permitting such unresponsible behavior and for being unable to stem the bleeding, and, to a lesser degree, on Theo for giving Tito too much rope. Sure, ownership has some blame; but, not to the extent I am reading and hearing. If they're to be faulted, it's for being too good. I endured decades of frustration. I well remember how it was before this ownership arrived. I don't want to return to those dark days. I am very thankful for what this group has done for us Sox fans. So, how about a little support from The Nation and a lot less blame? It's unwarranted!!!!
    Posted by 65972a02a6570b41bd88b577ef4d91e2[/QUOTE]

    Totally agree. Why does everyone want to give all the credit for the two WS's to Tito and Theo, who now appear to be much more flawed than we thought anyway? Owners deserve the credit too, and what else they choose to do, or not, about the team, is precisely that--their choice. It's their money after all. All in all, I think they have done a good job, and I hope they have learned from this fallout that the best way to win, and put an entertaining team on the field, is to find a bunch of hardworking guys, who are dedicated to excelling, whether they be pitchers, right fielders, managers, or GM's. No more prima donnas please!!
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from gbman87603. Show gbman87603's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?

    In Response to Re: Why Blame Ownership?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Why Blame Ownership? : Totally agree. Why does everyone want to give all the credit for the two WS's to Tito and Theo, who now appear to be much more flawed than we thought anyway? Owners deserve the credit too, and what else they choose to do, or not, about the team, is precisely that--their choice. It's their money after all. All in all, I think they have done a good job, and I hope they have learned from this fallout that the best way to win, and put an entertaining team on the field, is to find a bunch of hardworking guys, who are dedicated to excelling, whether they be pitchers, right fielders, managers, or GM's. No more prima donnas please!!
    Posted by pschuller[/QUOTE]

    Ownership gets credit for the WS wins, so they should also get blame for the state of this team, and now the franchise which cant be looking good to prospective employees, players and managers alike.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ergoetal. Show Ergoetal's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?

    In Response to Why Blame Ownership?:
    [QUOTE]I don't understand why ownership is taking so much flak. Have they not given us 2 WS flags? Haven't they given us a competitive team every year? Haven't they done a marvelous job of improving Fenway? Haven't they spent "whatever it takes" to give us the best chance of winning? Haven't they been the franchise's best ownership? Have they not been the ideal corporate citizens? Are they not the best ownership in all of professional sport? Are we not very lucky to have them? Do we want them to sell out? The blame rests squarely, first, on the undisciplened players, secondly, on Tito and his coaches for permitting such unresponsible behavior and for being unable to stem the bleeding, and, to a lesser degree, on Theo for giving Tito too much rope. Sure, ownership has some blame; but, not to the extent I am reading and hearing. If they're to be faulted, it's for being too good. I endured decades of frustration. I well remember how it was before this ownership arrived. I don't want to return to those dark days. I am very thankful for what this group has done for us Sox fans. So, how about a little support from The Nation and a lot less blame? It's unwarranted!!!!
    Posted by 65972a02a6570b41bd88b577ef4d91e2[/QUOTE]
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ergoetal. Show Ergoetal's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?

    Methinks we Larry Luchino amongst us now.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from pschuller. Show pschuller's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?

    In Response to Re: Why Blame Ownership?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why Blame Ownership? : Ownership gets credit for the WS wins, so they should also get blame for the state of this team, and now the franchise which cant be looking good to prospective employees, players and managers alike.
    Posted by gbman87603[/QUOTE]

    Sorry, disagree. They OWN the team, like the California State Pension Fund and Joe Smith own IBM. Owners hire people to perform, whether it's making good computers or playing good baseball. When those people fail at the task, they are replaced. I would agree that owners are responsible for that element. So now, after the complete meltdown, they have replaced the people they hired and who failed to do the job. What more do you want, for them to be acting like Ted Turner, and George Steinbrenner, micromanaging everything and driving people nuts? If they had not gotten rid of the guys they hired to do the job and were clearly not succeeding any more, than you could take issue with them. Just because the owners have other interests does not mean they don't have taken their eyes off the ball. Boston should celebrate the recent house cleaning and the prospect for a better organization, which has hopefully LEARNED something from all this. And while I am at it, I might as well throw in my two cents on what I hope the owners have learned: it takes more than a numbers crunching Boy Genius to be an effect GM in the 21st century Major Leagues. (in other words, please get a more seasoned leader next time). 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?

    The OP is throwing out a "strawman arguement". How does he know that everyone is blaming ownership? In fact, most articles are blaming the players.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ergoetal. Show Ergoetal's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?

    That's because OP is a shill for management.

    (Hi Larry)


     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?

    really - you havent heard any discussion about the management's role in this dysfunction until this was posted???? beyond idiotic - I was listening to EEI yetsreday and they spent 5 minutes on it deiscussing the rift between the management and players over the doubleheader....
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?

    Yes I heard that some reports that are blaming management but MOST fans and media and reasonanble are blaming the on-the-field play and some players who were not loyal. I would never base the opinion of RSN on the long line of fools who call WEEI. Read Pedroia's comments on the doubleheader and about the wet field conditions. A day later most of the players were over it. They choked in Sept. because they collectively played poorly. Sounds like 25 players to scapegoat to me.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from seannybboi. Show seannybboi's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?

    In Response to Why Blame Ownership?:
    [QUOTE]I don't understand why ownership is taking so much flak. Have they not given us 2 WS flags? Haven't they given us a competitive team every year? Haven't they done a marvelous job of improving Fenway? Haven't they spent "whatever it takes" to give us the best chance of winning? Haven't they been the franchise's best ownership? Have they not been the ideal corporate citizens? Are they not the best ownership in all of professional sport? Are we not very lucky to have them? Do we want them to sell out? The blame rests squarely, first, on the undisciplened players, secondly, on Tito and his coaches for permitting such unresponsible behavior and for being unable to stem the bleeding, and, to a lesser degree, on Theo for giving Tito too much rope. Sure, ownership has some blame; but, not to the extent I am reading and hearing. If they're to be faulted, it's for being too good. I endured decades of frustration. I well remember how it was before this ownership arrived. I don't want to return to those dark days. I am very thankful for what this group has done for us Sox fans. So, how about a little support from The Nation and a lot less blame? It's unwarranted!!!!
    Posted by 65972a02a6570b41bd88b577ef4d91e2[/QUOTE]

    Should I blame your mom for giving a birth to you then??
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?

    "The blame rests squarely, first, on the undisciplened players, secondly, on Tito and his coaches for permitting such unresponsible behavior and for being unable to stem the bleeding, and, to a lesser degree, on Theo for giving Tito too much rope."


    The fact is Henry and the boys are guilty of giving Theo too much rope as well. It's one thing to give a GM your trust when he's making good moves, but after repeated shocking examples of poor decision making, it's time to come off the yacht and pay attention. But I'm not too unhappy with this ownership group in general. They ponied up the dough this season, it was Theo who spent it poorly. Now let's just hope they bring in a solid manager. Looks like the GM gig belongs to Andrew Friedman, if he wants it, and I'm almost positive he will. He's a brilliant thinker and follows baseball logic-not sabermetric crystal ball gazing. None of that, "Well, he's a lifetime .250 hitter, but did you see his stats when hitting in a stadium holding under 60,000 fans? AWESOME!" He managed to keep a small market team competitive for 3 years without destroying their minor clubs. He's the guy and we should purue him vigorously. Cheringtin may have been promised some things, but business is business! Be smart John Henry.






    In Response to Why Blame Ownership?:
    [QUOTE]I don't understand why ownership is taking so much flak. Have they not given us 2 WS flags? Haven't they given us a competitive team every year? Haven't they done a marvelous job of improving Fenway? Haven't they spent "whatever it takes" to give us the best chance of winning? Haven't they been the franchise's best ownership? Have they not been the ideal corporate citizens? Are they not the best ownership in all of professional sport? Are we not very lucky to have them? Do we want them to sell out? The blame rests squarely, first, on the undisciplened players, secondly, on Tito and his coaches for permitting such unresponsible behavior and for being unable to stem the bleeding, and, to a lesser degree, on Theo for giving Tito too much rope. Sure, ownership has some blame; but, not to the extent I am reading and hearing. If they're to be faulted, it's for being too good. I endured decades of frustration. I well remember how it was before this ownership arrived. I don't want to return to those dark days. I am very thankful for what this group has done for us Sox fans. So, how about a little support from The Nation and a lot less blame? It's unwarranted!!!!
    Posted by 65972a02a6570b41bd88b577ef4d91e2[/QUOTE]
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?

    I thought that sabermetrics were rooted and based on logic and probability. Shouldn't positioning an outfielder be accurately based on a scatter diagram of thousands of historic observations instead of a hunch by a Casey Stengel or Pinky Higgins type?
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?

    As usual, the truth is complicated. The short answer is yes, stats measured and weighed in a large enough sampling size tell us alot. But what happens if it's taken too far? What if the facts get blurred by increasingly whacky data thrown into the mix? I've accused this organization of allowing OBVIOUS truths to be overlooked or out weighed by very thin sabermetric foolishness. "Yes Albert Pujols may APPEAR to be a move valuable player to have than Scuturo, but let me show you some stats suggesting otherwise..." My simple point is that the Sox need to keep it simple. Theo's trouble was he'd too often gamble on a player based on sabermetric data so twisted as to be implausable. Let's hope the next guy (Friedman) does better.




    In Response to Re: Why Blame Ownership?:
    [QUOTE]I thought that sabermetrics were rooted and based on logic and probability. Shouldn't positioning an outfielder be accurately based on a scatter diagram of thousands of historic observations instead of a hunch by a Casey Stengel or Pinky Higgins type?
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?

    I'll take the statistical expertise and reputation of Bull James over that of Teakus any day. Do you know any of the basics of Statistics, probability theory, index of correlation, standard error, standard deviation, regression? Do you know the long term value of stealing a base, sacrificing, over not giving up the out? Do you have stats on every matchup?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from aussiewill. Show aussiewill's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?

    Maybe ownership is guilty of one thing, trust. They trusted Theo , they trusted Tito , the coaches, and they trusted the players. They may have to take a more hands on approach. The money to get top players was there, the money to dolly up Fenway was there.

    As far as I can see the ownership did their part. The good news is they are still there, and they have the money to fix the problems, they have the fan base, they have the income stream. Now they need a front office and manager to implement the plan.

    Theo's gone now, he did some very good things, but I think in the end he began reading his own press clippings. We all know about the bad signings. The good signings : Ellsbury, Pedroia, Bard, Papelbon, Lester, Buchholz and others were all drafted on Theo's watch. That should tell the new GM something, build from within.

    Look at the Rangers, arguably the best team in the American League , almost all players either drafted , or received in trades for veteran players, they got three players  on their current lineup for Texeira.
     
    Fact young guys don't get injured as much as old guys, the Sox need to get younger. The owners will do the right thing , the Sox will be stronger in the long run. Hire Bobby Valentine, he won't put up with any BS. IMHO
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from OnDeckCircle. Show OnDeckCircle's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?

    Management rode the wave when things were going good.     Didn't have a clue how to handle things when it came apart.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from ct-pitcher. Show ct-pitcher's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?

    In Response to Why Blame Ownership?:
    [QUOTE]I don't understand why ownership is taking so much flak. Have they not given us 2 WS flags? Haven't they given us a competitive team every year? Haven't they done a marvelous job of improving Fenway? Haven't they spent "whatever it takes" to give us the best chance of winning? Haven't they been the franchise's best ownership? Have they not been the ideal corporate citizens? Are they not the best ownership in all of professional sport? Are we not very lucky to have them? Do we want them to sell out? The blame rests squarely, first, on the undisciplened players, secondly, on Tito and his coaches for permitting such unresponsible behavior and for being unable to stem the bleeding, and, to a lesser degree, on Theo for giving Tito too much rope. Sure, ownership has some blame; but, not to the extent I am reading and hearing. If they're to be faulted, it's for being too good. I endured decades of frustration. I well remember how it was before this ownership arrived. I don't want to return to those dark days. I am very thankful for what this group has done for us Sox fans. So, how about a little support from The Nation and a lot less blame? It's unwarranted!!!!
    Posted by 65972a02a6570b41bd88b577ef4d91e2[/QUOTE]

    "I don't want to return to those dark days."

    News flash....standby....you're back in "those dark days" right now.

    2011- 3rd place, historic meltdown of biblical proportions, team in total disarray, manager gone, gen manager going, no play offs
    2010- 3rd place, no playoffs




     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?

    Rofl! Was it your intention to call Bill James "Bull James", or was it simply an  unfortuitous Freudian slip?  Look, the story of Bill James is a great one and he's done alot for baseball, but he's also made millions selling an idea...a concept. When people do that they are forced many times to describe all other competitive concepts as inferior...possibly even stupid or dangerous. I've simply pointed out that statistical analysis of ANY subject is a science. Mathematics NEVER lies. But the devil is in the interpretation of a data's true value, and it is open to extreme manipulation when a preconceived outcome is desired. How was John Lackey chosen over Roy Halliday, when both are veteran starting pitchers and both were available. Yes, Roy was 2-3 million per year more. But was there more to this story? I say YES. I say Theo looked into his magic crystal ball, chanted some sabermetric based stats into the glass, and arrived at Lackey as the best guy to acquire. Was it Lackey's success when pitching in parks with green paint on their left field walls? Perhaps. But what's not in dispute is he was the WRONG guy to choose. It defied coinventional baseball logic. I hope you'd agree. A guy like Roy Halliday or Pedro Martinez don't come along often, and they MUST be pursued when they do. I'm suggesting he wasn't because Theo was enamored with Lackey, and I say that's a problem.




    In Response to Re: Why Blame Ownership?:
    [QUOTE]I'll take the statistical expertise and reputation of Bull James over that of Teakus any day. Do you know any of the basics of Statistics, probability theory, index of correlation, standard error, standard deviation, regression? Do you know the long term value of stealing a base, sacrificing, over not giving up the out? Do you have stats on every matchup?
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from sinjin5000. Show sinjin5000's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?

    If you dumb mother f... don't like what the owners do or how they run THIER team then quit going the games! find another why to spend your time in mommies basement.

    It's not YOUR TEAM! you didn't spend your money and your name isn't on the title to the team, YOU are a FAN, that it! You don't get a vote, except with your money!!

    If you don't like how a store is run, do you keep going back there??? If you do, your realy are stupid! 

    So shut the hell up about how the owners f... you over! They don't even know who the hell you are.

    How do you like those apples.


     
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from sinjin5000. Show sinjin5000's posts

    Re: Why Blame Ownership?

    If you dumb mother f... don't like what the owners do or how they run THIER team then quit going the games! find another why to spend your time in mommies basement.

    It's not YOUR TEAM! you didn't spend your money and your name isn't on the title to the team, YOU are a FAN, that it! You don't get a vote, except with your money!!

    If you don't like how a store is run, do you keep going back there??? If you do, your realy are stupid! 

    So shut the hell up about how the owners f... you over! They don't even know who the hell you are.

    How do you like those apples.


     
     

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