why cant we sign Ells?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from itllnevahapn. Show itllnevahapn's posts

    why cant we sign Ells?

    every where i hear we cant snf ellsbury. why not? with ortiz coming off the books and dice-k thats 22 million, not to mention it will be lackey's last year
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    In Response to why cant we sign Ells?:
    [QUOTE]every where i hear we cant snf ellsbury. why not? with ortiz coming off the books and dice-k thats 22 million, not to mention it will be lackey's last year
    Posted by itllnevahapn[/QUOTE]
    Perhaps Jacoby Ellsbury wants to test the free agent market following the 2013 season.

    It takes two to reach an agreement.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    Two words:

    Scott BOR-A$$

    Sidenote:
    We actually will have over $28M coming off the books next winter (not counting the Youk option of $13M or a $1M buyout).

    Papi    $12.65M to $16M (unless they go longerterm or middleground)
    Dice-K  $8.67M (AVV)
    Jenks    $6M
    Shopp  $1.35M

    My guess is Jacoby walks to a bigger payday or we trade him next winter or July 2013 (perhaps even July  2012 if we are 10 back by then).
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from never1954. Show never1954's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    Boras likes his players to test the market so no deal soon.  IMO
    Ells..contract will be sick if he follows up last year with another.
    I am sure the RS will do their best but don't they have a history of undervaluing their own players?  Love to see him stay but please no more long term crippling contracts.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    Weaver signed with the Angels, so not all Boras clients test. I think the Fielder contract will also have bearing on Ellsbury. If he signs with the Dodgers and Hamilton resigns, might come down to the Yankees or Sox for Ellsbury. Also let's face it, if he reverts to .775-.800 OPS leadoff hitter he is looking at 5/75 ish. If he is looking for over $100 he must continue at a .900 pace in a middle of the order slot.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from caseycsw. Show caseycsw's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    Not all Red sox fans test either...This team is looking more challenged by the minute.....Sorry to sound troll-like but this Scutaro trade is absurd....When the dust settles, it will be more obvious....

    “Pray for the dead, and fight like hell for the living.”

    -          “Mother” Mary Harris Jones (union and community organizer, born 1837 (Ireland) – 1930 (U.S.))

    “You see, until a few weeks ago, it seemed as if Wall Street had effectively bribed and bullied our political system into forgetting about that whole drawing lavish paychecks while destroying the world economy thing. Then, all of a sudden, some people insisted on bringing the subject up again. And their (Occupy Wall Street) outrage has found resonance with millions of Americans. No wonder Wall Street is whining.”

    -          Paul Krugman, Princeton economist, N.Y. Times column, 10/16/11


     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    CF is an important position--next season the Braves Michael Bourn will be a FA--he settled for a little less than Ells in arb this week. He's a pretty talented player, good defense, good speed--to me the major difference is Ells power, at least in 2011, and about 30 points higher in BA. Stolen bases about the same. 

    In fact, if you play around with the numbers and the offensive weapons for the Sox, Bourn might be just as productive except for the power. I would think he could be locked up for maybe $10-12 M for 5 years--which is about $6-8  M less than what Boras is thinking but for 8-10 years for Ells.

    If you offered Ells $16 M for 6 years,  with a $4 M bonus today, an even $100 M-- beginning after his 2012 contract expires--I've got to believe if he turns that down--you want to enter into serious trade talk for him and move him between now and Opening Day.

    I might give Ells the courtesy of asking who he might like to traded to--give me five teams in the order of interest: 
    Seattle I think might be in the five. I would trade him for Ichiro and Furbush.
    Philly--even up for Hamels.
    Yankees---Pineda or Nava plus Gardner and Nunez.
    Rangers--Murphy and Harrison or Lewis
    Dodgers--Ethier and a good pitching Prospect--Maj. League experience.

    That would be the end of it. Remember Nomar turned down $48 M--it wasn't long after that he was traded to the Cubs.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    Quite simply, Borass won't accept a cent less than Crawford, and the Sox will not spend 40+ mil on 2 OFers. Even if they did, can you imagine the amount of luxury tax b!tching we'd hear from these millionaires?

    Sox cut out their OWN legs on this one. The Crawford deal was horrendous for many, MANY reasons.

    So, technically, the Sox CAN sign Ellsbury, much the same as they COULD have signed Pujols, or Reyes, or Wilson, or Fielder this year. COULD does not equate to WILL.

    TWO 20mil contracts on the books at once? I think I'm going to p u k e (seriously? I can't foocking write 'pvke'? B!tch, @sshole, Wh0re....pick your battles).
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    In Response to Re: why cant we sign Ells?:
    [QUOTE]CF is an important position--next season the Braves Michael Bourn will be a FA--he settled for a little less than Ells in arb this week. He's a pretty talented player, good defense, good speed--to me the major difference is Ells power, at least in 2011, and about 30 points higher in BA. Stolen bases about the same.  In fact, if you play around with the numbers and the offensive weapons for the Sox, Bourn might be just as productive except for the power. I would think he could be locked up for maybe $10-12 M for 5 years--which is about $6-8  M less than what Boras is thinking but for 8-10 years for Ells. If you offered Ells $16 M for 6 years,  with a $4 M bonus today, an even $100 M-- beginning after his 2012 contract expires--I've got to believe if he turns that down--you want to enter into serious trade talk for him and move him between now and Opening Day. I might give Ells the courtesy of asking who he might like to traded to--give me five teams in the order of interest:  Seattle I think might be in the five. I would trade him for Ichiro and Furbush. Philly--even up for Hamels. Yankees---Pineda or Nava plus Gardner and Nunez. Rangers--Murphy and Harrison or Lewis Dodgers--Ethier and a good pitching Prospect--Maj. League experience. That would be the end of it. Remember Nomar turned down $48 M--it wasn't long after that he was traded to the Cubs.
    Posted by MadMc44[/QUOTE]

    Turned down 4/64, held out for 68 if memory serves. Ended up signing a 1/10 the following year, and I don't believe more than 5per any other. One of the dumbest decisions I'm aware of any player ever making. Greedy, stupid, ill-informed and got what he deserved the whiny, little, spoiled baby.

    I say field offers, and see what you can get for him. 2 years ago I was thinking Ells/Kemp straight up, I still like it now, but less so with Kemp on the books for 20 per over 8 more years.

    Many teams would love to have Ellsbury, and at the deadline, or more likely next winter, teams would get into a bidding war. I'd be looking for a Ricky Romero type pitcher to head the package (young, good K numbers, proven in AL East) that included another decent to good prospect or 2.

    I would not be happy to see the Sox deal him for a package of 4-5 prospects as low as single-A. I'd want more surety than that.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from drpjn. Show drpjn's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    Some really great posts, folks. Perceptions are spot on.

    Like Moon's comment above, the main issue is Borass who takes his players to the open market.  It would be unprecedented for the Red Sox to "overpay" enough for an agreement either beforehand or at free agent time.

    My guess is that he'll be dealt prior to that........yet another potential great one that got away due to the increased focus on the financial side of the baseball enterprise.

    The double edged sword resulting from Curt Flood and Marvin Miller's good work!
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from donrd4. Show donrd4's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    In Response to why cant we sign Ells?:
    [QUOTE]every where i hear we cant snf ellsbury. why not? with ortiz coming off the books and dice-k thats 22 million, not to mention it will be lackey's last year
    Posted by itllnevahapn[/QUOTE]

    The reason is very simple BORAS!! ......The highest bidder for Ells service will be the team that Ells always want to play for......Get it ?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    In Response to Re: why cant we sign Ells?:
    [QUOTE]Boras likes his players to test the market so no deal soon.  IMO Ells..contract will be sick if he follows up last year with another. I am sure the RS will do their best but don't they have a history of undervaluing their own players?  Love to see him stay but please no more long term crippling contracts.
    Posted by never1954[/QUOTE]

    For one, I'd like to see Ellsbury repeat or at least come close to repeating his all star season before the Red Sox pay him like an all star.

    Secondly, I don't think it's so much the Red Sox undervaluing their players as it is that there's no sense, from a team standpoint, in securing a player long term while the player is still in his arb years if the team is not getting a decent home team discount from it.  IMO, that should include at least 2 free agency years at a below market rate in exchange for the player's long term security.

    Like Paps, Jacoby does not seem interested in that type of arrangement.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    In Response to Re: why cant we sign Ells?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to why cant we sign Ells? : The reason is very simple BORAS!! ......The highest bidder for Ells service will be the team that Ells always want to play for......Get it ?
    Posted by donrd4[/QUOTE]
    In 2011 Scott Boras clients Carlos Gonzalez and Jered Weaver signed contracts that extended into their free agent years, yet fans continue to spread misinformation about Boras.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    Two points: 1- Many fans applaud the idea of free agency , but then get upset when the agents become involved. Boras is one of the best. He does not have loyalty to the Sox , or any team. He wants to get the best deal for his client. That is the way the business is now.  2- Traditionally , only the Yankees have been able to outbid the Sox for the top players. Now , other teams are getting into the act. Still , if the Sox want to re-sign Ellsbury, I don't see any reason why they won't be able to do it. He has not expressed any animosity toward the organization , or a desire to play on the West Coast. The big question is: Will he be able to continue playing at the level of last year's production? We will find the answer to that soon enough.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from donrd4. Show donrd4's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    In Response to Re: why cant we sign Ells?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: why cant we sign Ells? : In 2011 Scott Boras clients Carlos Gonzalez and Jered Weaver signed contracts that extended into their free agent years, yet fans continue to spread misinformation about Boras.
    Posted by hill55[/QUOTE]

    Well here is one not so misinformation.Owners hate dealing with BORAS.Not sure how many clients Boras has? But it's way to many.He is the KING of getting top dollar and making your average player filthy rich.You no where you can shove your misinformation....
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    In Response to Re: why cant we sign Ells?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: why cant we sign Ells? : In 2011 Scott Boras clients Carlos Gonzalez and Jered Weaver signed contracts that extended into their free agent years, yet fans continue to spread misinformation about Boras.
    Posted by hill55[/QUOTE]

    Weaver was a special case.  He was born in CA and went to school in CA.  He wasn't going anywhere else.  For the most part, Boras' clients play out their options.  So it's not really misinformation.  Nor does it bother me.  These things tend to even out.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    In Response to Re: why cant we sign Ells?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: why cant we sign Ells? : Well here is one not so misinformation.Owners hate dealing with BORAS.Not sure how many clients Boras has? But it's way to many.He is the KING of getting top dollar and making your average player filthy rich.You no where you can shove your misinformation....
    Posted by donrd4[/QUOTE]

    The agent can only advise his client on what to do.  Utimately, the decision is the player's.
     
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliamsjr. Show hankwilliamsjr's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    Ellsbury 2011 season was a true windfall, as all out of line career years are. AGon and a healthy Pedroia is what made Ellsbury 2011 season. He needs to be traded this winter. It will be all down hill on trade value for the reaminder of the 20 million ticket he'll be using to sign as a FA with another team.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    In 2011 Scott Boras clients Carlos Gonzalez and Jered Weaver signed contracts that extended into their free agent years, yet fans continue to spread misinformation about Boras.

    I never said "never", but I'd bet Bor-A$$ star clients go to free agency at a much higher rate than other agents' clients.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    In Response to Re: why cant we sign Ells?:
    [QUOTE]In 2011 Scott Boras clients Carlos Gonzalez and Jered Weaver signed contracts that extended into their free agent years, yet fans continue to spread misinformation about Boras. I never said "never", but I'd bet Bor-A$$ star clients go to free agency at a much higher rate than other agents' clients.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]
    And perhaps players who are bent on testing the free agent market are more likely to hire Scott Boras.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    As great as last year was for Ells, the 2010 was a disaster for him.  He was injured in a collision with Beltre trying to catch a pop fly.  He suffered broken ribs and tried to come back too early and hurt himself again.  He decided to rehab, not in Boston, but somewhere of his choosing.  The fans (on this board also) began accusing him of tanking it, of not really having a serious injury.  Youk verbally called him out to the Globe and other news sources and was basically crying because Ells was not in Boston on the bench being the team cheerleader.  That was at the same time that Pedroia hurt his ankle and made headlines fielding grounders on his knees.  Pedy tried a comeback and that failed because he only hurt the ankle again and was lost for the season.  Youk then hurt his thumb and promply headed to Minnesota to have it operated on rather than stay in Boston and be a cheerleader for the team.  Ells didn't say anything publicly but you know his feelings were hurt when almost the whole team backed Youk when he said Ells was tanking it with the injury.

    So it isn't hard to see why Ells might just want to walk when his time is up in Boston...coupled with Boras - i would say the Sox have NO CHANCE to sign him.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    A lot more water has to go over the dam ( two years ) before we know the market value of Ellsbury and the ability of the Red Sox to afford whatever the price will be. Too many variables to consider and predict. Give it a rest and enjoy Red Sox baseball instead.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    Give some examples of Boras' players that have signed contract to avoid free agency.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    In Response to Re: why cant we sign Ells?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: why cant we sign Ells? : And perhaps players who are bent on testing the free agent market are more likely to hire Scott Boras.
    Posted by hill55[/QUOTE]

    Excellent point, hill. You oftens get me to think in ways I never considered. Boras also has a reputation of creating elaborate presentations to prove the worth of his clients. If I was a player looking to make the most money possible, I'd hire Boras. He has had his failures, but has way more successes in terms of getting his clients top dollar.

    I think there is more to the signing/extending Ellsbury dynamic than Boras. I think Jacoby still holds a grudge over the health issues of 2010, the Youk statements, and his withdrawal from his teammates in 2012. I don't see him wanting to stay here. He may even accept slightly less to play elsewhere.



     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: why cant we sign Ells?

    In 2011 Scott Boras clients Carlos Gonzalez and Jered Weaver signed contracts that extended into their free agent years, yet fans continue to spread misinformation about Boras.

    Were these guys past their arb years when they signed?
     
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