Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?

    It's because ...

    Oh, wait a minute -- THEY DON'T.

    We've seen the posts ripping the Sox for being injury prone because of poor conditioning or that Francona babies them and rests them more than other managers rests their players.

    So you would think that other teams starters would play more games than Boston's starters in the lineup. Funny thing though -- facts don't back it up.

    Here is how Boston fairs against other top teams in the A.L. position by position to see who plays more games.

    Red Sox vs. Angels
    C: Red Sox
    1B: Red Sox
    2B: Red Sox
    SS: Angels
    3B: Angels
    LF: Tie
    CF: Red Sox
    RF: Angels
    DH: Tie

    Red Sox edge: 4-3-2. It would be 5-3-1 if Ortiz didn't get suspended.

    Red Sox vs. Rangers
    C: Rangers
    1B: Red Sox
    2B: Red Sox
    SS: Rangers
    3B: Red Sox
    LF: Red Sox
    CF: Red Sox
    RF: Ranges
    DH: Rangers

    Red Sox ege: 5-3

    And the only reason it's not 5-2-1 is because the Rangers use their DH Young at other positions when other guys are out.

    Red Sox vs. Tigers
    C: Tigers
    1B: Tigers
    2B: Red Sox
    SS: Tigers
    3B: Red Sox
    LF: Tie
    CF: Red Sox
    RF: Tigers
    DH: Red Sox

    Tie: 4-4-1

    It really is 3-3-3 because the Tigers advantage at 1B is two games and the Sox advantage at DH is two games.

    Red Sox vs. Yankees
    C: Yankees
    1B: Red Sox
    2B: Yankees
    SS: Red Sox
    3B: Red Sox
    LF: Yankees
    CF: Tie
    RF: Yankees
    DH: Red Sox

    Tie: 4-4-1, although the edge at 1B and 2B is just one game, so in reality, it's like the Tigers, 3-3-3.

    Red Sox vs. Rays
    C: Red Sox
    1B: Red Sox
    2B: Red Sox
    SS: Red Sox
    3B: Red Sox
    LF: Red Sox
    CF: Red Sox
    RF: Rays
    DH: Rays 

    Red Sox edge: 7-2 (And again. If Ortiz didn't get suspended, it would be 8-1 Boston edge).


     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?

    Nice lead-in. Nothing like exposing misconceptions.
    I live for it.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?

    Now, the starting pitchers by GS (IP):

    Boston:
    1) Beckett  27 (174 IP)
    2) Lester     27 (172)
    3) Buch        14 (83)
    4) Dice-K        7 (32)
    5) Lackey     25 (144)
    6) Wakefield 20 (140)
    7) Miller          12 (61)
    8) Bedard        6  (32) 
    9) Others         6
       44 starts by their 6th or greater starters.

    Yanks:
    1) Sab     30  (218)
    2) Burn   29  (172)
    3) Colon 26  (152)
    4) Garcia 22 (131)
    5) Hughes 13 (66)
    6) Nova     24 (144)
    7) Others    2
      26 by the 6+ starters)

    TB:
    1) Price     30 (204)
    2) Shileds 29 (218)
    3) Davis    26 (172)
    4) Niemann 20 (122)
    5) Hellickson 25 (164)
    6) A. Cobb        9 (53)
    7) Sonnanstine 4
      Only 13 games by their 6_ starters.

    Detroit has 4 starters with 27-31 starts. Phil Coke has 16 and Fister has 7, while 4 others combined for 8 ML starts.)

    I'm not sure if the Rangers had their top 5 from day one, but they have 5 starters wqith 26+ starts and only 5 starts from 2 other guys total.

    The Angels have 5 starters with over 21 starts and only from 4 others combined.




     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from SOfTLaw1AAA. Show SOfTLaw1AAA's posts

    Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?

    YOu live for perpetuating propaganda.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?

    Roy,

       Good work.  I know it's a little tough right now, but we ain't quittin' and we ain't cryin'.  And we never been biotchin' ... so ...

      It's late, injuries really hurt now, but 20+ games left and that is plenty of time to get back on our feet.

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Scott8340. Show Scott8340's posts

    Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?

    The OP's stats are extremely deceiving here because the point we make about Francoma is that he sits them to rest them, not because they are injured. Take the Yankees comparison above. The reason Youk has played more is because ARoid has been injured pretty much half the year. Same for Scutaro, Jeter was out for a ton of games. What you don't see is ARod and Jeter sitting because Girardi "thouht it would be nice to rest them".

    If they're injured you have to sit em. If they're healthy you should play em a lot more than Tito does. Give me some "coach's decision" stats and I'll listen.

     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?

    In Response to Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?:
    [QUOTE]The OP's stats are extremely deceiving here because the point we make about Francoma is that he sits them to rest them, not because they are injured. Take the Yankees comparison above. The reason Youk has played more is because ARoid has been injured pretty much half the year. Same for Scutaro, Jeter was out for a ton of games. What you don't see is ARod and Jeter sitting because Girardi "thouht it would be nice to rest them". If they're injured you have to sit em. If they're healthy you should play em a lot more than Tito does. Give me some "coach's decision" stats and I'll listen.
    Posted by Scott8340[/QUOTE]

    First, the other part of the equation is some posters say the Sox are injury prone (bad conditioning). So if the reason the Sox players have played more at all these positions is because -- as you're saying -- the only reasons why other team's starters don't play is because they're injured, then other teams' conditioning must be even worse.

    Now with all due respect, do you realize how stupid your assumption is. That Tito sits players to rest them but other teams players only sit when they're hurt. Do you really believe that no other manager rests players. Some of the so-called "rest" is because the player might be sick or injured.

    A-Rod was hurt. Sure. So is Youk and funny thing too. Youk has been hurt yet still wins 3B games played battle with four of the five teams I looked at.

    Take a look at the 1B and 2B. Those are two of the key players for the Sox. Some of the other teams -- Rangers and Yankees, for example, -- also have their top players at those positions. Yet the Sox win nearly all those position battles. A-Gon loses twice by one and two games respectively. Same thing with Ortiz and Ellsbury as winning their positions -- Ortiz missing out by a couple of games a couple of times because of the suspension, which of course has nothing to do with Francona.

    Heck, even Crawford, despite the stint on the DL, is 2-1-2 in winning the games played battled with the other top teams.

    The only players who don't win their positions is SS and RF where there have been injuries and those positions would have been a platoon situation anyway w/o injuries. Also catcher, because the Sox have successfully used a 3-2 platoon with Salty and Tek.

    So either other teams' players are more injury-prone than the Sox or other managers also will sit players for the same reasons Francona does -- matchups, nagging injury or sickness, platoon situation or resting a guy to keep the player fresh.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Myles-Standish. Show Myles-Standish's posts

    Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?

    Does Scott know someone in the dugout or clubhouse? How is he privy to all of these details? Sometimes a regular is benched because of the percent matchups that warrant playing a bench player. In that case does Scott call that resting the player. Many decisions are made using many variables that we are not aware of. Scott acts like he has the right to know. Why not just enjoy the games.
     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?

    I do feel Tito rests his players a little more than the league norm, or past Sox managers. He is a strict pitch count guy and often chooses to give his starters an extra days rest. Our starters rarely have over 200-210 IP/season. Tito often rests very hot players for a game. 

    I think it's a valid point. I'm not saying over a long season, it is the wrong thing to do. Tito does have 2 rings that could be partially attributed to having rested arms and everyday players when it counts.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?

    In Response to Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?:
    [QUOTE]I do feel Tito rests his players a little more than the league norm, or past Sox managers. He is a strict pitch count guy and often chooses to give his starters an extra days rest. Our starters rarely have over 200-210 IP/season. Tito often rests very hot players for a game.  I think it's a valid point. I'm not saying over a long season, it is the wrong thing to do. Tito does have 2 rings that could be partially attributed to having rested arms and everyday players when it counts.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    First Bold Statement: Maybe, but without following other teams as closely, I'm not ready to say this 100 percent. Except for players that go on the DL, the Sox starters -- at least the studs -- play as much as starters for other teams, so it's really hard to know how different Tito is in this regard.

    Second Bold Statement: I agree with the pitch count statement, but many (most?) managers are too. And other managers will give pitchers extra rest now and then. So again, I'm not sure how different Francona is. I looked at pitch counts of a couple of top pitchers (Lee and I forget the other pitcher) and compared to Lester and Beckett and it there didn't seem to be a huge difference, although they did appear to have more higher-pitch count games than Boston's. One thing to consider too is that with the offense the Sox have, there have been a few games where the starter is pulled after seven with a low pitch count because of the big lead. Had the game been closer the starter might have gone another inning because Francona has pushed his starters in close games.

    Third Bold Statement: I admit occasionally I'm perplexed now and then when Francona sits a hot player. However, it's not the big guns (Jake, Pedey, Papi, Youk, A-Gon) that being "rested." It's the Scutaros, Loweries, Reddicks -- players like that. And often when you look deeper, the reason often is matchups -- tough lefty against a left-handed hitter, for example. And again, without studying other managers, it's hard to know how different Francona is in this regard.

    I do agree that Francona will give a player a day off now and then if he thinks the player is wearing down or in general terms of trying to keep the player fresh and healthy for the entire season, which is a smart thing to do.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BeaconHill19. Show BeaconHill19's posts

    Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?

    Don't we all want a manager to start a player with the best numbers vs. the opposing pitcher? Isn't that why they collect such statistics. The stats are often mentioned by Orsillo and Remy and by Tito if asked. Posters should also have such stats handy before being blindly critical of the use of the bench players over regulars.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?

    In Response to Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?:
    [QUOTE]Don't we all want a manager to start a player with the best numbers vs. the opposing pitcher? Isn't that why they collect such statistics. The stats are often mentioned by Orsillo and Remy and by Tito if asked. Posters should also have such stats handy before being blindly critical of the use of the bench players over regulars.
    Posted by BeaconHill19[/QUOTE]

    It's why Tito was hired.  He had more of a willingness to use modern tools than some of the other candidates.

    IRT asking posters to have stats handy when they want to be critical, I can only assume that you're new here.  Entire threads go by without even a number included.  I have long ago assumed that their number pads are broken.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?

    Roy-thanks for the numbers.  i've always had a concern that Tito doesn't rest our players enough.  Pedey, Gonzo, and Ells have missed a total of 10 games between them.  It's a fine line, but if we win today and one or two next week, I think he needs to rest some of these guys, including Bard and Aceves.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?

    Terrific thread.
    I do think the pitching numbers (time missed) need to be discussed, as they are the main reason for the recent swoon, IMO. Season-long issues:
    1) Periodic loss of velocity.
    2) Questionable pitch efficiency.
    3) Injuries (how many are the result of poor mechanics?).
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?

    It would be fine if the RS bench was adequate. The other teams semm to have more depth on their 25 man roster.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BeaconHill19. Show BeaconHill19's posts

    Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?

    There’s nobody to blame but everybody,’’ Ortiz said, channeling his inner Yogi Berra.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from law2009a. Show law2009a's posts

    Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?

    n
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?

    In Response to Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?:
    [QUOTE]Roy-thanks for the numbers.  i've always had a concern that Tito doesn't rest our players enough.  Pedey, Gonzo, and Ells have missed a total of 10 games between them.  It's a fine line, but if we win today and one or two next week, I think he needs to rest some of these guys, including Bard and Aceves.
    Posted by Joebreidey[/QUOTE]

    Basically the expection heading into the season is that unless there's a strict platoon regulars will play between 150 and 155 games..That is the minimum expectation for a healthy starter one that is counted on to be among th eteams best contributors...It accounts for schedued offdays, when a guys dinged up or in some cases becasue they flat out can't hit that days starter and or they've had one trip to the 15 day DL...

    Pitching the math is 162 games X 9 Innings = 1458 total innings per season...

    Starting pitchers the math is simple...30 GS x 6 IP = 180 x 5 = 150 GS and 900 IP by your opening day rotation...leaving 12 starts for the spot starter 12 X 6 = 72 IP....

    So in an ideal world the starters are expected to give the team 972 of the possible 1458...or about 66% of the total innings.

    The Pen has to cover the 486 innings or 33% to be divided amongst 7 guys or about 70 IP per member of the pen with the longman assuming the spot starts.

    Here's current breakdown of the three AL east teams...the sox and the Yanks are both trending about the same and as expected the Rays lean more on thier starters...to go deeper in games...

    The Sox...
    Starters867  65.9%
    Pen34826.5%
    Aceves1007.6%
    Total 1315.3 100.00%

    The Yanks
    Starters916 69.6%
    Pen39730.1%
      0.0%
    Total 1317.2 100.0%

    the Rays
    Starters 953  72.4%
    Pen32524.7%
    A. Sonn342.6%
    Total 1316 100.0%
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from law2009a. Show law2009a's posts

    Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?

    m
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from law2009a. Show law2009a's posts

    Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?

    m
     
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    m
     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Why Do Other Teams Starters (Position Players) Play More Games Than Boston's?

    we have had so many injuries it is hard to get a real read on how much we play our regulars vs our starters and even that is subjective...we have the second highest payroll in mlb...we have 2/3 of our lineup that are legit mvp candidates....when we play our weak bench (see Mcdonald, cameron, aviles, inglesias, etc) we are taking a pretty big hit imho....it makes no sense for us NOT to play our non-pitching regulars as much as possible - with a little bit of conditioning 150 games would not be a problem...pitchers need to be watched more carefully obviously...my point is that looking at another team and saying that it is Ok because they do it almost as much as us is not really wise analysis

     

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