Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

    I mean the guy is only the greatest clutch hitter in Red Sox history. Obviously my bias is given away by my avatar, but I really think the Sox will be able to bring him back on their terms. David has said again and again that he wants to stay with the Red Sox and last year he hit over .300 with 29 homers and 100+ RBIs. And those ribbies aren't necessarily easy to come by when you have Gonzo hitting in front of you. I'm not trying to put anyone down for their opinions, but I'm generally curious. If you can bring Papi, the face of the franchise, back on a decent deal; why not do it?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

    I love Big Papi!!!!

    I have a poster of him beside my Pedro Martinez poster.

    The guy is a hero, a super guy, he still can hit too.

    But he runs too slow. If he doesn't hit a homer he is a liability on the basepaths, he is a problem when we have interleague play.

    Ortiz, Wakefield and Varitek had their day. They never were "complete" ballplayers. Now , as they age , their weaknesses become more costly.

    We need more versatile players and fewer "specialists." Ortiz is a specialist.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

    It's not about Papi: it's about the budget and our limitations.

    We have about $24M left to spend on 7 slots and remain at last year's CBT budget payroll level.

    1) SP#4
    2) Closer (or replacement for Bard as set-up)
    3) SP#5
    4) DH
    5) RP
    6) RF
    7) C

    I'd love Papi back. He should retire here, but how do we keep him and fill all these slots on just $24M?

    Show me your detailed plan.

    If we keep Papi at say $9M/yr, that leaves $15M for the other 6 slots. We can fill some with kids: C-Lava, RF-Reddick/Kalish, and maybe the #5 starter and some relief with 2 to 3 of these guys:
    Tazawa/Doubront/Weiland/Bowden/Morales
    ...but, we still need a solid #4 starter and set-up guy for $15M and pray all the kids work out in the pressure-cooker that is Boston. 
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

    In Response to Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?:
    [QUOTE]I love Big Papi!!!! I have a poster of him beside my Pedro Martinez poster. The guy is a hero, a super guy, he still can hit too. But he runs too slow. If he doesn't hit a homer he is a liability on the basepaths, he is a problem when we have interleague play. Ortiz, Wakefield and Varitek had their day. They never were "complete" ballplayers. Now , as they age , their weaknesses become more costly. We need more versatile players and fewer "specialists." Ortiz is a specialist.
    Posted by ZILLAGOD[/QUOTE]He does run too slow, but he always did. Vladi Guerrero made 7.6M this year. I don't think anyone will offer Papi more than that, or if they do it will only be marginally more. I think David's big concern is the years. IMO he really wants to retire in the home whites. I think a 2 year deal at $8M per with an option for a third year gets it done, and Big Papi gets the hero's parade in 2014 at Fenway that he so decidedly deserves. And that leaves $26M to address the 4 and 5 slots in the rotation and the bullpen. I don't think we need to spend any money on RF this winter, as we really need to take a look at what's on the farm.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

    He does run too slow, but he always did. Vladi Guerrero made 7.6M this year. I don't think anyone will offer Papi more than that, or if they do it will only be marginally more.

    Papi's way better than Vladdy was before last year.

    I think David's big concern is the years. IMO he really wants to retire in the home whites. I think a 2 year deal at $8M per with an option for a third year gets it done, and Big Papi gets the hero's parade in 2014 at Fenway that he so decidedly deserves.

    I think it might take $9M x 2 with incentives that would bring him to $11-12M, and an option 3rd year with a $2M buyout that gaurantees papi $20M/2 if we refuse, minimum.

    And that leaves $26M to address the 4 and 5 slots in the rotation and the bullpen. I don't think we need to spend any money on RF this winter, as we really need to take a look at what's on the farm.

    After you figure in AGon's deal and Buch's extension, I had us at about $28-30M to spend. The Scutty option took $6M. I have us at about $22-24M to spend on 5-7 slots, not 4-5 if we sign Papi.

    1) SP#4
    2) Closer/set-up (whichever Bard is not)
    3) SP#5
    4) RP
    5) RF
    6) C
    7) Sp#6/RP

    Yes, some can and will be filled by kids.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from crmn19. Show crmn19's posts

    Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

    In Response to Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?:
    [QUOTE]I mean the guy is only the greatest clutch hitter in Red Sox history. Obviously my bias is given away by my avatar, but I really think the Sox will be able to bring him back on their terms . David has said again and again that he wants to stay with the Red Sox and last year he hit over .300 with 29 homers and 100+ RBIs. And those ribbies aren't necessarily easy to come by when you have Gonzo hitting in front of you. I'm not trying to put anyone down for their opinions, but I'm generally curious. If you can bring Papi, the face of the franchise, back on a decent deal; why not do it?
    Posted by carnie[/QUOTE]

    True on the clutch aspect, but if it means ridiculous (above the ususal ridiculous) money it will not be a wise investment.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

    In Response to Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus? : True on the clutch aspect, but if it means ridiculous (above the ususal ridiculous) money it will not be a wise investment.
    Posted by crmn19[/QUOTE]The key words in the OP were on their terms, and decent deal.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from OnDeckCircle. Show OnDeckCircle's posts

    Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

    A guy his size would be difficult to fit under a bus.      But on the serious side, at his age (36) his batting skills could decline sharply in one year.    Offer him a one year deal  for $8 million ..........  take it or leave it.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

    Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

    It is possible the team actually gets more versatile without big Papi, which in turn could improve the team.

    If big Papi can be signed for one year, then perhaps it is a good fit. But overpaying for more than a year will not improve this team.

    Change is obvious for the Sox this off-season. If Papi is not signed, the Sox will survive. He is not the threat to opposing pitchers he once was as claimed by another on here.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

    If we could keep Papi for about $5 million / yr., then we're talking.  Unfortunately Papi would want about $10 million / year.  I think the only team willing to give him near $10 is Boston.  I LOVE PAPI, but why bid against ourselves????

    Offer him $5 million, & leave it at that.  HE does not even have 2 more good years left in that body!!!!  Time to face facts!!!!   He just is NOT going to be able to do it for much longer.  As much as I love the guy, it would be pure insanity to GIVE HIM $10 million / year, when eve $5 million / year is a relatively BIG RISK!
     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

    In Response to Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?:
    [QUOTE]I love Big Papi!!!! I have a poster of him beside my Pedro Martinez poster. The guy is a hero, a super guy, he still can hit too. But he runs too slow. If he doesn't hit a homer he is a liability on the basepaths, he is a problem when we have interleague play. Ortiz, Wakefield and Varitek had their day. They never were "complete" ballplayers. Now , as they age , their weaknesses become more costly. We need more versatile players and fewer "specialists." Ortiz is a specialist.
    Posted by ZILLAGOD[/QUOTE]  B I N G O !!!  AS DAD WOULD SAY.... "SON, THAT ZILLY, KNOWS HIS STUFF" !!!!
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

    I've always been a huge fan of Papi's but I'm starting to have second thoughts. Yes he produces a lot of offense for the team as a DH but it also hurts the team's flexibility when you've a one dimensional player like Papi who cannot take the field or the manager won't use in the field. Papi is capable of playing first base on a limited basis and although not able to cover a lot of ground he does possses a decent glove hand.

    It really hurt this team last year when Papi was out of the line up when the Sox played NL teams. He could and should be used occasionally at first base because his offense makes up for any lack of defense at first. 

    As for whether to sign or not I wish I only knew. There are good arguments on both sides but paying a one dimensional player who they refuse to put on the field 12M is absurd, but trying to find a replacement who can consistently give you 30hrs and 100rbis won't be easy.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

    Why are threads titled like this one which wrongly assumes what "many" forum posters think about Papi? It seems to me that most want Papi back for the right price.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

    In Response to Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?:
    [QUOTE]Why are threads titled like this one which wrongly assumes what "many" forum posters think about Papi? It seems to me that most want Papi back for the right price.
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    Because many do want the Sox to not resign him and let him go to free agency. The title doesn't say how many or what percentage, all it says are "many" which if you read the posts on this site often enough you'll find the subject line is correct.     
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

    Just this morning I looked out the window and said "Why are there so many clouds in the sky" My wife looked out, studied the sky, and said that the sky was mostly clear and that the sun was out. I was right however since I did see about 20 percent of the sky filled with clouds.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

    Like Utica says, most RS fans don't 'want' him to leave.

    But like Moon says, we need to consider the overall structure of the team and payroll.

    If we go with Papi as DH for $10M, does that mean we go with Reddck for all 162 games in RF, even against lefties?  

    Do we continue to go with 5 lefties in the lineup?

    Do we ignore the fact that over 2008-2010, he averaged 28 HRs, .257, with 79 runs and 97 RBIs?

    Do we ignore that he will be 36 & 37 for a 2-year contract, the age at which most players lose a considerable amount of hitting skills?

    Do we ignore the Type A compensation which might be worth upwards of $6M, a relatively high amount compared to his salary cost?

    Our history has shown that allowing older FAs to leave has been the right move.  I like Papi and wouldn't 'mind' if we re-signed, same as I wouldn't have been bothered re-signing Bay or VMart, but I really don't think it would be the smart move.

    Tkae the picks, get a little younger, get more flexible, save some money for more important needs.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from titletownfan. Show titletownfan's posts

    Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

    I agree with above posters.  It is not that we don't want Papi back, its just that he is limited to one position, and will command way too high a contract.  Last year may have been the classic contract year spike, and even then he was lowsy in September.  He had been trending downwards every year before this.  He's still a solid hitter, and will probably give you somewhere around .275-25-85, but those numbers are easily replacable by a cheaper and more versatile option.  Use the DH spot to rest Youk to keep him healthy over the course of the year.  Use it to give Lavarnaway AB's against LHP's.  Use it to give other players who are nursing injuries (i.e. A-Gon) a chance to rest up, while still contributing with the bat. This is a far better option than using it on a specialist.  

    I wouldn't be dissapointed in bringing back Ortiz, I just think we have a better use for the spot.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from rgmfick. Show rgmfick's posts

    Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

    Wow! A number of choices. Is Salty the hitter Theo thought he would be? as I don't believe he is the catcher the team hoped, only Gary Tuck really knows. The team needs to approach next season with versatility. I see Kevin Youkilis, already under Contract, as the primary DH, with Adrian Gonzalez, Salty and Lavarnway getting some DH time when Youk either plays 1B or gets a day off. I would rather see some of the money spent on another Starting Pitcher and a righthanded or switchitting righfielder. Not certain who is in that mix for the Starting Pitcher, but Bard, Aceves and FAs such as CJ Wilson and others could be in the mix to join Beckett, Lester and Buchholz in the rotations. If the Red Sox sign Yoenis Cespedes, a decision will have to made whether he is ready to be a ML rightfielder, or if not is Juan Carlos Linares, the other righthanded hitter, ready. One of the 2 lefthanded hitting outfielders with whom the Red Sox are very familiar, Josh Reddick and Ryan Kalish, are likely to be the 4th outfielder and if neither Cespedes is signed or Linares is not ready, I would rather see the money spent on Carlos Beltran, also a switchitter and someone who could be groomed to do some time at DH. A key decision will be whether and how soon the team thinks Will Middlebrooks may be ready to be the regular 3B.

    We don't expect John Lackey and DiceK to be part of the starting rotation in 2012. I would much rather see money spent of starting and relief pitchers and for the most part, maybe with the exception of maybe FA Beltan, spent on pitching, and not on David Ortiz.           

    This has nothing to do with throwing anyone under the bus, it has to do with not getting into the Contract situation the Yankees got into with Jeter, A-Rod and Posada.   That is something the Red Sox, particularly after having eaten Contracts such as Renteria and Lugo, should avoid.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

       BECAUSE, HE WAS DONE ON NOV. 13TH AND HE IS STILL DONE TODAY..... MATTER A FACT,  HE IS SLOWER & OLDER TODAY.......  HE'S GONE !!!
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

    i would sign him for 2/20  but he wont...
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

    I don't believe anyone is throwing him under the bus. He wants more than he's worth, he doesn't play any field positions, he's the dh who doesn't start to hit until he's ready, there are other players who could use the position, he went after the manager in a press conference, (What would happen if he knew it was his final contract?), and he doesn't mind playing for the Yankees and threatened to do so. IMO...so do it.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

    Call him out - tell him we will match any concrete offer from any other team.. then he can chose to stay in Boston because according to him this is where he really wants to be.

    I will bet $1,000 he would be angry and leave town.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

    Bursitis kept Big Papi out for 2 weeks during the pennant race. The interleague schedule kept him out of the lineup for a few weeks. He gets 2 paid vacations during the season, but hams it up for the All-Star Game Home Run Derby. He's a great player, a great contributor to 2 WS titles, the part of the Big 2 Hammer Society, other than Baines and E-Martinez, probably the best DH in history. He clogs a spot that should be used for 3 or 4 guys in a rotating system for "resting" between full starts--Youkilis, AGON, Scutaro, etc.....BP also is often an easy out for lefty relievers late in games...I love him, and I am disappointed in his limitations. Again, if they sign him great, if they don't...also great. It's just not a priority.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Why do so many here want to throw Big Papi under the bus?

    Very reasonable post. His list of limitations grow yearly, and his numbers gradually decline. I doubt not he will hit 25-30 homers in 2012, it is the 2013-14 seasons I worry about. This team needs flexibility.
     

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