Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    Even now people are pushing "micro-aggression" labels onto people as if you can never have an opinion on someone who is not white. It is bologna!

    So now I or anyone cannot criticize Ortiz out of fear of being called a racist. That is what you are doing - squashing opinions by instilling fear of false persecution.

     

    Here it is: Wether he has a good year or an off-year Ortiz acts like an azz with his needing security and respect. The guy has been paid plenty. He should for once shut his face.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:

    Even now people are pushing "micro-aggression" labels onto people as if you can never have an opinion on someone who is not white. It is bologna!

    So now I or anyone cannot criticize Ortiz out of fear of being called a racist. That is what you are doing - squashing opinions by instilling fear of false persecution.

     

    Here it is: Wether he has a good year or an off-year Ortiz acts like an azz with his needing security and respect. The guy has been paid plenty. He should for once shut his face.



    Actually, more than any other time in his career, now is the most justifiable time to ask for more.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    That is true, but what about all the other years? If winning means anything it should more to him than us, why start with the poor me tactics yet again and a possible tarnish on Spring Training.

     

    Keep in mind he always gets his way, the team has yet to call his bluff. I would not bet he would be Mr. Happy if they did... Mo Vaughn, Clemens, etc.,..... all our favorites turned ugly when they didn't get that extra "security/respect"

     

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to 2013soxchamps' comment:

    Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

     


    Because he is that good.



    And because some of our posters are so dead sure that their fantasy GM skills aren't to be questioned.  How dare we question internet know-it-alls as compared to a true high level professional?  How dare we question his skill, drive or even ability to deal with injury ... uh, or lack of the same? 

    I appreciate the fact that we have Big Papi supporters and that he has validated their support.  I don't understand the vitriol against him.  He's always been a colorful individual, not soft-spoken or cow-towing to the "sensible" fans here.  His flare is both enjoyed and dispised.  But he's always been worth any time invested, monies paid, and attention allotted. 

    He's the same man who told the terrorists of the world that Boston wasn't owned by them but by Bostonians ...

    The on field activities and the interviews are the same worth while person.

    It's time that the negative voices edit their sure lack of support.  It's time that we all appreciate this rare individual before he is truly no longer MLB star capablle.

     

    As far as being racist, that might be some of it.  But I remember feeling the same offense by people who kept saying Yaz was no longer a big leaguer ...  and after ten or twelve years of them saying it, they finally were right.   Too bad they did not appreciate Yaz - or do not appreciate Big Papi - for all they have meant AS THEY PLAY!

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to SinceYaz's comment:

    In response to 2013soxchamps' comment:

    Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

     


    Because he is that good.



    And because some of our posters are so dead sure that their fantasy GM skills aren't to be questioned.  How dare we question internet know-it-alls as compared to a true high level professional?  How dare we question his skill, drive or even ability to deal with injury ... uh, or lack of the same? 

    I appreciate the fact that we have Big Papi supporters and that he has validated their support.  I don't understand the vitriol against him.  He's always been a colorful individual, not soft-spoken or cow-towing to the "sensible" fans here.  His flare is both enjoyed and dispised.  But he's always been worth any time invested, monies paid, and attention allotted. 

    He's the same man who told the terrorists of the world that Boston wasn't owned by them but by Bostonians ...

    The on field activities and the interviews are the same worth while person.

    It's time that the negative voices edit their sure lack of support.  It's time that we all appreciate this rare individual before he is truly no longer MLB star capablle.

     

    As far as being racist, that might be some of it.  But I remember feeling the same offense by people who kept saying Yaz was no longer a big leaguer ...  and after teon or twelve years of them saying it, they finally were right.   Too bad they did not appreciate Yaz - or do not appreciate Big Papi - for all they have meant AS THEY PLAY!




    An excellent post, SY.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Moon,

    As you well know, I have been one of the biggest antagonist to Bill & Stiffy's veiled racism.  I have called it out AT THE TIME, when it happened.  I don't however, cast aspersions on those around them who happen to feel a certain way about a certain subject, imputing "racist" motives on everything, based soley upon my anti-racist, anti-gay bias. 

    I hope you are not implying that I cast racism around all the time. I don't.

     

    I find it interesting that you are this vocal on this particular subject, painting with a broad brush, but casually stepped aside during the latest debate when one particular poster decided to condemn gays in no uncertain terms?  This poster is well known, and she is more than vocal.  You were there, but had absolutely nothing to say?

    I honestly do not recall that thread. I have battled with softy many times about his anti-gay position.

    (Note: I don't read every post and often purposely skip some poster's posts.)

     

    I guess it's all about whose ox is being gored?  Do you pick & choose who certain rhetoric is acceptable from?  Can I get a cheat sheet on the matrix by which we choose to confront such vile rhetoric?

    If I read any "vile rhetoric", I will respond. I am a very strong supporter of diversity and equal rights to all.

     

    My point?  If you're going to paint with a broad brush, why not just come out & name names?  Call it when you see it.  Don't allude to nebulous inferred racism, by some amorphous some.....  Just call out who you are talking about, & leave the rest of us out of this.

    Like I said earlier, I do not keep track of every poster's name, especially since so many of the racists and bigots have had to change their names several times, and some, i suspect have multiple names, but I do know softy is an obvious racist and bigot. BILL may not be an intentional bigot, I just think he does not see the whole picture too well and jumps to conclusions based on limited facts.

     

    For the record.....  I abhor the nit-picking at Papi!  He is the greatest Red Sox hero of our time.  Perhaps the greatest in the past......   60+ years!  I love the guy like few other Boston Sports Heroes.  Larry Bird & Bobby Orr are the closest in my formative lifetime.  KG & Peirce pale in comparison.  Papi has been an epically transformative sports figure in Boston!  So I take no backseat to fighting the anti Papi-bashing crusaders.  I'm simply tired of the universal cries of racism, designed to shut down debate, simply because of a few ABVIOUS nit-wits.

    I see your point, but feel some people pile on after reading posts from the bigots while going out of their way to praise them right after they make it known where their foundation is. 



    moon, what some of us who have defended bill on this issue have pointed out, and what you have completely neglected to respond to, are the following:

    1) He loved Bradley and was screaming for him to be the everyday outfielder.

    2) He loved Iggy and was screaming for him to be the everyday shortstop.

    I can go dig up some of the threads he started about these things.

    You seem to be taking the position that someone can be 'selectively racist'.

    A charge as serious as racism should not be made this carelessly.     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:

    I want to ad that I have watched this thread for days and nothing disgusted me more than the above post by moonslav59

     


    JD Drew was bludgeoned here in Boston, was that racist? Easily the most dissapointing post by moonslav59 ever. And I could go on and on, I use the "Drew" example as the easiest counter but obviously there is much more that could be said... but why beat a dead horse. The dead horse being "racism" as it barely registers on the national level any longer. Most of us have grown up.



    I don't usually blame race for anything, but I think if Ellsbury had said 'you pay me or I leave', no one would be writing about it.  That's about what he did, and he left.

    Whatever it is, I seriously do not think that, if Papi was the color of Lester, that the press would be in such an uproar.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    OK, I will bite ...... Besides some "hot vacation spots (all inclusive for safty), please tell me/us about all the good things that comes out of Mexico since the year in our lord of 2000 ??????    BZZZZZZZZZ   Times up !!!

     

    I rest my case.



    Thats fine, but it was MY case to rest. The sad part is that Bill doesn't even see where his attitude is bigoted-and thats the first step to fix it.



    I'm not sure how this is racist.

    1-He's not saying anything specifically about Mexcans, just Mexico.

    2-I think the defense against racism is truth.  There are a lot of places in this world that don't produce anything.  It usually has more to do with the gov't than the people.  That doesn't make it racist.  I think it does no one any good to ignore the inconvenient truths.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:

    I want to ad that I have watched this thread for days and nothing disgusted me more than the above post by moonslav59

     


    JD Drew was bludgeoned here in Boston, was that racist? Easily the most dissapointing post by moonslav59 ever. And I could go on and on, I use the "Drew" example as the easiest counter but obviously there is much more that could be said... but why beat a dead horse. The dead horse being "racism" as it barely registers on the national level any longer. Most of us have grown up.



    I don't usually blame race for anything, but I think if Ellsbury had said 'you pay me or I leave', no one would be writing about it.  That's about what he did, and he left.

    Whatever it is, I seriously do not think that, if Papi was the color of Lester, that the press would be in such an uproar.




    Agreed.

    I think the press made a story out of it because Ortiz has a history of speaking his mind.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    Big Papi is the most beloved Red Sox player of the modern era. He should be signed to a 2yr $30 million deal immediately (hopefully with a club option for a 3rd year), and I have no doubt that's what's gonna happen. I literally love David Ortiz, and so should every self respecting Red Sox fan!! Greatest clutch hitter I have EVER seen, great clubhouse guy, clean rep in the community. What's not to love?! Don't delay Ben....just get it done out of respect for our hero. He's earned a fast track contract.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kingface12. Show Kingface12's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    OK, I will bite ...... Besides some "hot vacation spots (all inclusive for safty), please tell me/us about all the good things that comes out of Mexico since the year in our lord of 2000 ??????    BZZZZZZZZZ   Times up !!!

     

    I rest my case.



    Thats fine, but it was MY case to rest. The sad part is that Bill doesn't even see where his attitude is bigoted-and thats the first step to fix it.



    I'm not sure how this is racist.

    1-He's not saying anything specifically about Mexcans, just Mexico.

    2-I think the defense against racism is truth.  There are a lot of places in this world that don't produce anything.  It usually has more to do with the gov't than the people.  That doesn't make it racist.  I think it does no one any good to ignore the inconvenient truths.




    Take your blinders off.....the guy is a bigot. 

    Sure he rooted for JBJ and Iggy because he's a fan (I think) but that doesn't take away the fact that he also has said A LOT of racially motivated things in the past and present.  The guy should be banned and I'm sure it will happen sooner rather than later.....

     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazy-world-of-troybrown. Show crazy-world-of-troybrown's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    Much ado about nothing, Tim Kurkjian said. Sox can give him a QO, then work an extension, after he agrees.
    Probably Ben told his Agent, just be patient. Still working on coming season.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:

    Even now people are pushing "micro-aggression" labels onto people as if you can never have an opinion on someone who is not white. It is bologna!

    So now I or anyone cannot criticize Ortiz out of fear of being called a racist. That is what you are doing - squashing opinions by instilling fear of false persecution.

     

    Here it is: Wether he has a good year or an off-year Ortiz acts like an azz with his needing security and respect. The guy has been paid plenty. He should for once shut his face.



    Actually, more than any other time in his career, now is the most justifiable time to ask for more.



    He can ask for whatever he wants-privately. He has been paid very well in Boston and makes far more than any of us and likely more than anyone any of us even know. For him to take his requests public has nothing to do with his race; it still sounds greedy. A generic "I am sure everything will work out" is a wiser response to the questions reporters are asking him rather than "I want a multiyear contract or else its time to move on". Even better: "I am very grateful to the Red Sox organization for compensating me very very well during my tenure here. Like all professional baseball players I have made more money for playing a game than 99.9% of the people in this country. My family and I are secure for life. I am sure my next contract will be a fair one".

    Sorry. Nothing to do with race, everything to do with brash tactlessness.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:

    Even now people are pushing "micro-aggression" labels onto people as if you can never have an opinion on someone who is not white. It is bologna!

    So now I or anyone cannot criticize Ortiz out of fear of being called a racist. That is what you are doing - squashing opinions by instilling fear of false persecution.

     

    Here it is: Wether he has a good year or an off-year Ortiz acts like an azz with his needing security and respect. The guy has been paid plenty. He should for once shut his face.



    Actually, more than any other time in his career, now is the most justifiable time to ask for more.




    Ah!  There it is....  A real debate, minus the race card.

     

    I happen to think that Enchillada is seriously over-reacting with respect to Papi RIGHT NOW!  There is no doubt that IF EVER, NOW is the time for him to step up & try to hit pay dirt for a LIFETIME of service to the Sox.  Now, in the past, when he and Manny were in the habbit of playing the "where's my respect," all while Manny would show his teammates & fans ZERO respect, a la "my grandmother died again"......  "Picture day with my teammates?"  "What teammates?"  "You don't have my reservation old man, I'm gonna put you through a wall"  Now that OLD "where's my respect crap, used to infect Papi to some degree.  It got OLD REAL QUICK.   Flash forward..........  I no longer lump Papi in with the likes of his old buddy Manny.  The guy has been THE DRIVING FORCE behind all 3 WS Championships, and there is NO DOUBT that he has been underpaid for that amazing production.  Now is the time to strongly suggest getting paid by the Sox.  He's earned that right.  I wish he kept it behind closed doors, but we all know how the game is played.  You aren't going to get paid unless there is home town pressure to do so.  The Sox are under no obligation to extend him right now, and it benefits them to see how things go in 2014.  Papi's getting old, & doesn't want to run the risk of getting hurt & never getting a paycheck for 2015.  It's just business. 

    You see.....  I respect those who get tired of the "where's my respect" BS, but in the end, I side with Papi on this one.  HE'S EARNED THE RIGHT to ask for the extension NOW. 

    NO NEED to impute "racist" motives in the arguement.  Ench, Bill, etc. are not being racists, just stupid ;) 

    Just kidding boys ;)

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:

     

    Here it is: Wether he has a good year or an off-year Ortiz acts like an azz with his needing security and respect. The guy has been paid plenty. He should for once shut his face.



    Why so vicious? The guy has done a lot on the field for the Red Sox. Prior to 2004, would you have ever said the Sox will win three World Series titles in 10 years. Ortiz has been integral to all three. It doesn't give anyone a pass to do anything, but it should make fans be a bit more tolerant to his idiosyncrisies (sp?). 

    Everyone has his flaws. Ortiz isn't the first player to have insecurities. Money and success doesn't always make those go away. In fact, the fact that he has those insecurities likely drives him.

    You mentioned Vaughn and Clemens in another post. Ortiz has never rested on his laurels or turned things ugly regardless of his contract. When he struggled against lefties post wrist injury (2009 and 2010), what did he do. He worked harder prior to 2011 to improve against lefties.

    You don't have to like his complaining, but do you have to get so nasty when discussing it? 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:

    That is true, but what about all the other years? If winning means anything it should more to him than us, why start with the poor me tactics yet again and a possible tarnish on Spring Training.

     

    Keep in mind he always gets his way, the team has yet to call his bluff. I would not bet he would be Mr. Happy if they did... Mo Vaughn, Clemens, etc.,..... all our favorites turned ugly when they didn't get that extra "security/respect"

     

     



    I wouldn't say he "always gets his way", since he was underpaid by over $40M just for his regular season output since 2003.

    Like I said, I have no beef with how Sox management has treated Papi. This thread is about Papi's tactics to get what he feels he deserves.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    moon, what some of us who have defended bill on this issue have pointed out, and what you have completely neglected to respond to, are the following:

    1) He loved Bradley and was screaming for him to be the everyday outfielder.

    2) He loved Iggy and was screaming for him to be the everyday shortstop.

    I can go dig up some of the threads he started about these things.

    You seem to be taking the position that someone can be 'selectively racist'.

    A charge as serious as racism should not be made this carelessly. 

     

    The old reply that "some of my friends are black" does not mean a person is racist or not.

    Besides, JBJ and Iggy have not been "uppity" either.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from steven11. Show steven11's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:

    Even now people are pushing "micro-aggression" labels onto people as if you can never have an opinion on someone who is not white. It is bologna!

    So now I or anyone cannot criticize Ortiz out of fear of being called a racist. That is what you are doing - squashing opinions by instilling fear of false persecution.

     

    Here it is: Wether he has a good year or an off-year Ortiz acts like an azz with his needing security and respect. The guy has been paid plenty. He should for once shut his face.



    Actually, more than any other time in his career, now is the most justifiable time to ask for more.



    He can ask for whatever he wants-privately. He has been paid very well in Boston and makes far more than any of us and likely more than anyone any of us even know. For him to take his requests public has nothing to do with his race; it still sounds greedy. A generic "I am sure everything will work out" is a wiser response to the questions reporters are asking him rather than "I want a multiyear contract or else its time to move on". Even better: "I am very grateful to the Red Sox organization for compensating me very very well during my tenure here. Like all professional baseball players I have made more money for playing a game than 99.9% of the people in this country. My family and I are secure for life. I am sure my next contract will be a fair one".

    Sorry. Nothing to do with race, everything to do with brash tactlessness.




    well said.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    redsoxdirtdog yes I am driving home the full-venom non-race points just because moon injected race into the conversation. A few including the OP admitted race was never part of the original question: Why the venom on BOTH sides?

    moon may be polite but he quietly supplied the venom from the other side, and it is a deadly venom as it comes. Racism.

    redsoxdirtdog u are a thorough poster.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:

    redsoxdirtdog yes I am driving home the full-venom non-race points just because moon injected race into the conversation. A few including the OP admitted race was never part of the original question: Why the venom on BOTH sides?

    moon may be polite but he quietly supplied the venom from the other side, and it is a deadly venom as it comes. Racism.

    redsoxdirtdog u are a thorough poster.



    My point exactly: racism brings out the venom on "both sides".

     
  22. This post has been removed.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to tvfrank's comment:

    Racism in Boston? Are you nuts? Weren't the SOX the 1st American League team to sign a black ballplayer? Hold on; what's that? They were what? err, nevermind.



    Just to be clear, I have never come close to saying the Sox, under current management" is or has been racist.

    Before Henry, there is no debate.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to tvfrank's comment:

    Racism in Boston? Are you nuts? Weren't the SOX the 1st American League team to sign a black ballplayer? Hold on; what's that? err, nevermind.



    My guess is that those of you basking in the glow of 1970's Boston are not from Boston, & have never spent much time here.  I wonder if you've ever traveled any of this splendidly open minded country.

    Frankly, your holier than thou condemnations of MODERN Boston & Mass by proxy, are beyond tired.  

    Try to get out more.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    Oh how I love the bandwagon fans from elsewhere who constantly need to over-sell their liberal civil rights credentials by condemning everyone around them.

    Lift yourselves up boys.  You must feel you need it?

     
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