Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

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    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to 2013soxchamps' comment:

    In response to 37stories' comment:

    So I skimmed this whole thread, as far as I can tell people think Ortiz is a racist and Bill had something to do with Bush bombing Mexico.







    When you think about it, it's easy to see why Bush bombed Mexico.  It's clear protectionism.  Since the incredible growth of Mexican food in this country, Bush's Baked Bean sales have been dramatically impacted.  Why would you not go after your direct competition?

    It's just business people!  Calm down.

     
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    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to JoseLaguna's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    I have not called everyone who is critical of Papi a racist, but pretending that his skin color has had nothing to do with some of the venom displayed here is being naive or an act of denial.

    To say there is no example of what Papi is doing out there in the real world is insane. Look what Oprah and other entertainers get for drawing people to them. Look what top execs get paid for delivering. Look what some get paid for not delivering.

    It's the American way to go out and try to get the most you can grab. While there are examples of some players taking "home town discounts", the vast majority of sports and entertainment people go all out to maximize their take. To single out Papi and go to such lengths to minimize his value to this club since 2003 by picking out the few times he failed to lead this club to a ring in a manifestation of failed logic. No Sox player has ever done more to raise this club out of it's long slump of ineffectiveness than Papi. His 2004, 2007 and 2013 playoff performances alone more than make-up for his partially injury-related slump from age 32-34.

    I've never come close to saying we owe him the $40M regular season underpay fangraphs has him at, but it is clear he was underpaid since 2003. I realize that management has the right to profit from theiur player's performances, and the Sox have made much more than $40M on Papi alone. They have lost money on other players. They can't go back and ask for that back. I get that.

    I get the risk involved with extending a 37 year old player with a little injury history and a past 3 year down stretch. I'm not advocating a 3-4 year extension and never cam eclose to saying so.

    I am defending Papi's position of seeking the most he can get based on the fact that no other Sox player has the resume Papi does. Even when he slumped vs the tough Tiger pitching staff, he had the biggest hit in the series, and perhaps all of Sox history- the grand slam that took us out of the jaws of defeat.

    There should be a statue of Papi outside Fenway Park. That's not some obsessed hero worship. That's just the plain truth.

    The vitriol against Papi that has been going on for years on this site is just plain sick. I'm not backing down from my position that some of it has been racially motivated. I would not fault any black player for never wanting to play for fans like some of the ones here. It is what it is. Denying it just adds to the problem.

    Stop with "you're playing the race card" mantra. It's plain denial.

    Seriously, there are about 5 Papi threads on the top now...for what? Ask yourself, "for what?" If you want to pretend his "crime" fits the punishement, then you're a lost cause.



    The above statement by Moonslav is what the thread is about. Moonslav is an intelligent, reasonable, astute, well-prepared, knowledgeable, loyal fan of the Red Sox. He has been on this forum almost daily for years. He also spends countless hours providing us with detail, comparisons,  statistics, and logic.   He has been here for years and can recall who was guilty of racism, baiting, insincerity, and here to incite or inflame. The forum needs more posters like Moonslav.




    More cowbell.

     

    This thread started out on Ortiz, moved on to politics, etc., so now maybe I can get headed into a discussion of SNL (or Christopher Walken at least).

     
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    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    [/QUOTE]

    Well, it appears that my question above was answered by Moonslav since he is talking about the forum and not the media. Now how about the author of the OP, was he also referring to the forum venom. It always helps to be specific when you make statements. Has the forum had their share of racist threads over the years? It is best to ask those who have been here for years, I would think.

    [/QUOTE]


    I am late to the party as this thread has taken a political turn.

    But, to answer your question, I was indeed talking about the forum.

    I was not, however, talking about racism.  I was just pointing out that there were reasonable points on both sides of the issue.  I also didn't think that the issue's tone needed to be so hostile.

     

     
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    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    The vitriol against Papi that has been going on for years on this site is just plain sick. I'm not backing down from my position that some of it has been racially motivated. I would not fault any black player for never wanting to play for fans like some of the ones here. It is what it is. Denying it just adds to the problem.

    Stop with "you're playing the race card" mantra. It's plain denial.


    Sorry Moon. I think you are off base here. You don't have to back down from your opinion that some of the vitriol against Ortiz is race based, but I think the same vitriol would be present had a white player been so public with his whining about respect and salary. I have not seen a single post here about Ortiz that I could label as racist. Its ALL about his behavior, NOT about the color of his skin.

     
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    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    The vitriol against Papi that has been going on for years on this site is just plain sick. I'm not backing down from my position that some of it has been racially motivated. I would not fault any black player for never wanting to play for fans like some of the ones here. It is what it is. Denying it just adds to the problem.

    Stop with "you're playing the race card" mantra. It's plain denial.


    Sorry Moon. I think you are off base here. You don't have to back down from your opinion that some of the vitriol against Ortiz is race based, but I think the same vitriol would be present had a white player been so public with his whining about respect and salary. I have not seen a single post here about Ortiz that I could label as racist. Its ALL about his behavior, NOT about the color of his skin.



    It's not about just being upset with Papi's behavior. It has gone way beyond that for some here. Look at the amount of threads, the length of the threads, and some of the vile talk about Papi on these threads.

    It's hard for me to think some of it is not racially based. When a few of the posters here, who have a long history of making racial or bigoted tsatements flock to every thread about Papi quicker than lightening, the flag is raised. Then, when the classic statement, "don't play the race card" follows, I'm of the opinion that some here are in serious denial, unconcious or otherwise.

     
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    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    The vitriol against Papi that has been going on for years on this site is just plain sick. I'm not backing down from my position that some of it has been racially motivated. I would not fault any black player for never wanting to play for fans like some of the ones here. It is what it is. Denying it just adds to the problem.

    Stop with "you're playing the race card" mantra. It's plain denial.


    Sorry Moon. I think you are off base here. You don't have to back down from your opinion that some of the vitriol against Ortiz is race based, but I think the same vitriol would be present had a white player been so public with his whining about respect and salary. I have not seen a single post here about Ortiz that I could label as racist. Its ALL about his behavior, NOT about the color of his skin.



    It's not about just being upset with Papi's behavior. It has gone way beyond that for some here. Look at the amount of threads, the length of the threads, and some of the vile talk about Papi on these threads.

    It's hard for me to think some of it is not racially based. When a few of the posters here, who have a long history of making racial or bigoted tsatements flock to every thread about Papi quicker than lightening, the flag is raised. Then, when the classic statement, "don't play the race card" follows, I'm of the opinion that some here are in serious denial, unconcious or otherwise.

    WRONG ..... Bill-806 is an equal opportunity critic of "OF ALL OVER PAID/OVER RATED/ PLAYERS IN THEIR TWILIGHT" !!!   As DAD would say.....  "MY SON SHOULD GET CREDIT FOR BEING THE WATCHDOG FOR RED SOX NATION"  !!!!




    Ortiz is overrated, huh?

     

     
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    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    It's not about just being upset with Papi's behavior. It has gone way beyond that for some here. Look at the amount of threads, the length of the threads, and some of the vile talk about Papi on these threads.

    It's hard for me to think some of it is not racially based. When a few of the posters here, who have a long history of making racial or bigoted tsatements flock to every thread about Papi quicker than lightening, the flag is raised. Then, when the classic statement, "don't play the race card" follows, I'm of the opinion that some here are in serious denial, unconcious or otherwise.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    WRONG ..... Bill-806 is an equal opportunity critic of "OF ALL OVER PAID/OVER RATED/ PLAYERS IN THEIR TWILIGHT" !!!   As DAD would say.....  "MY SON SHOULD GET CREDIT FOR BEING THE WATCHDOG FOR RED SOX NATION"  !!!!


    [/QUOTE]

    Ortiz is overrated, huh?

     

    And, he's been "underpaid" by about $40M* since joining the Sox, and that doesn't even count postseason value! 

    *fangraphs value page

     

     
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    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    The vitriol against Papi that has been going on for years on this site is just plain sick. I'm not backing down from my position that some of it has been racially motivated. I would not fault any black player for never wanting to play for fans like some of the ones here. It is what it is. Denying it just adds to the problem.

    Stop with "you're playing the race card" mantra. It's plain denial.


    Sorry Moon. I think you are off base here. You don't have to back down from your opinion that some of the vitriol against Ortiz is race based, but I think the same vitriol would be present had a white player been so public with his whining about respect and salary. I have not seen a single post here about Ortiz that I could label as racist. Its ALL about his behavior, NOT about the color of his skin.



    It's not about just being upset with Papi's behavior. It has gone way beyond that for some here. Look at the amount of threads, the length of the threads, and some of the vile talk about Papi on these threads.

    It's hard for me to think some of it is not racially based. When a few of the posters here, who have a long history of making racial or bigoted tsatements flock to every thread about Papi quicker than lightening, the flag is raised. Then, when the classic statement, "don't play the race card" follows, I'm of the opinion that some here are in serious denial, unconcious or otherwise.

    WRONG ..... Bill-806 is an equal opportunity critic of "OF ALL OVER PAID/OVER RATED/ PLAYERS IN THEIR TWILIGHT" !!!   As DAD would say.....  "MY SON SHOULD GET CREDIT FOR BEING THE WATCHDOG FOR RED SOX NATION"  !!!!





     

    I don't know about DAD, but Momma always said "stupid is as stupid does."

     
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    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

     

    WRONG ..... Bill-806 is an equal opportunity critic of "OF ALL OVER PAID/OVER RATED/ PLAYERS IN THEIR TWILIGHT" !!!   As DAD would say.....  "MY SON SHOULD GET CREDIT FOR BEING THE WATCHDOG FOR RED SOX NATION"  !!!!

    Bill, you are good man, a good American, and a good Red Sox fan. But you are so wrong about Big Papi. He just helped deliver another championship. Yes, he is closer to the end of his career than the beginning. But he is not overpaid or overrated. He has delivered the goods! There is no reason to warn us about Papi except to warn us he may lead the Sox to victory, which is what he has done consistently throughout his career. Give the man his due and let up on him. Papi is not a problem!




 
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    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    The vitriol against Papi that has been going on for years on this site is just plain sick. I'm not backing down from my position that some of it has been racially motivated. I would not fault any black player for never wanting to play for fans like some of the ones here. It is what it is. Denying it just adds to the problem.

    Stop with "you're playing the race card" mantra. It's plain denial.


    Sorry Moon. I think you are off base here. You don't have to back down from your opinion that some of the vitriol against Ortiz is race based, but I think the same vitriol would be present had a white player been so public with his whining about respect and salary. I have not seen a single post here about Ortiz that I could label as racist. Its ALL about his behavior, NOT about the color of his skin.



    It's not about just being upset with Papi's behavior. It has gone way beyond that for some here. Look at the amount of threads, the length of the threads, and some of the vile talk about Papi on these threads.

    It's hard for me to think some of it is not racially based. When a few of the posters here, who have a long history of making racial or bigoted tsatements flock to every thread about Papi quicker than lightening, the flag is raised. Then, when the classic statement, "don't play the race card" follows, I'm of the opinion that some here are in serious denial, unconcious or otherwise.



    Ok, I'll buy that since I'd would never say that race is not the agenda of some who post here.  I don't have that knowledge so I won't dispute what you say.  However, I believe the clear majority of us, even those who have been critical of Papi for his behavior, DON'T have race as a motivating factor in our posts.

    I would only point out that it offends some of us to be painted with that same broad brush - which is what happened at the beginning of this thread.   

     
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    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to S5's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    The vitriol against Papi that has been going on for years on this site is just plain sick. I'm not backing down from my position that some of it has been racially motivated. I would not fault any black player for never wanting to play for fans like some of the ones here. It is what it is. Denying it just adds to the problem.

    Stop with "you're playing the race card" mantra. It's plain denial.


    Sorry Moon. I think you are off base here. You don't have to back down from your opinion that some of the vitriol against Ortiz is race based, but I think the same vitriol would be present had a white player been so public with his whining about respect and salary. I have not seen a single post here about Ortiz that I could label as racist. Its ALL about his behavior, NOT about the color of his skin.



    It's not about just being upset with Papi's behavior. It has gone way beyond that for some here. Look at the amount of threads, the length of the threads, and some of the vile talk about Papi on these threads.

    It's hard for me to think some of it is not racially based. When a few of the posters here, who have a long history of making racial or bigoted tsatements flock to every thread about Papi quicker than lightening, the flag is raised. Then, when the classic statement, "don't play the race card" follows, I'm of the opinion that some here are in serious denial, unconcious or otherwise.



    Ok, I'll buy that since I'd would never say that race is not the agenda of some who post here.  I don't have that knowledge so I won't dispute what you say.  However, I believe the clear majority of us, even those who have been critical of Papi for his behavior, DON'T have race as a motivating factor in our posts.

    I would only point out that it offends some of us to be painted with that same broad brush - which is what happened at the beginning of this thread.   



    Agreed. Some here are pretty clearing bigoted....just a few....and I do not want to be painted like that either. When I responded to Moon's assertion I was referring to this thread only, but I guess you really can't do that. Those who harbor race based feelings against Ortiz will do it on every thread about him.

     
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    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to 37stories' comment:

    So I skimmed this whole thread, as far as I can tell people think Ortiz is a racist and Bill had something to do with Bush bombing Mexico.




    hahaha.  +4 points

     
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    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to S5's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    The vitriol against Papi that has been going on for years on this site is just plain sick. I'm not backing down from my position that some of it has been racially motivated. I would not fault any black player for never wanting to play for fans like some of the ones here. It is what it is. Denying it just adds to the problem.

    Stop with "you're playing the race card" mantra. It's plain denial.


    Sorry Moon. I think you are off base here. You don't have to back down from your opinion that some of the vitriol against Ortiz is race based, but I think the same vitriol would be present had a white player been so public with his whining about respect and salary. I have not seen a single post here about Ortiz that I could label as racist. Its ALL about his behavior, NOT about the color of his skin.



    It's not about just being upset with Papi's behavior. It has gone way beyond that for some here. Look at the amount of threads, the length of the threads, and some of the vile talk about Papi on these threads.

    It's hard for me to think some of it is not racially based. When a few of the posters here, who have a long history of making racial or bigoted tsatements flock to every thread about Papi quicker than lightening, the flag is raised. Then, when the classic statement, "don't play the race card" follows, I'm of the opinion that some here are in serious denial, unconcious or otherwise.



    Ok, I'll buy that since I'd would never say that race is not the agenda of some who post here.  I don't have that knowledge so I won't dispute what you say.  However, I believe the clear majority of us, even those who have been critical of Papi for his behavior, DON'T have race as a motivating factor in our posts.

    I would only point out that it offends some of us to be painted with that same broad brush - which is what happened at the beginning of this thread.   



    Agreed. Some here are pretty clearing bigoted....just a few....and I do not want to be painted like that either. When I responded to Moon's assertion I was referring to this thread only, but I guess you really can't do that. Those who harbor race based feelings against Ortiz will do it on every thread about him.




    I believe some folks posts about papi here involves race. Those that dont like him, will flock to these threads and add 100 posts to their total in one day. I could name 2 or 3 off the top of my head. Those people will never change and I just ignore there nonsense.

    My complaint is that so many here were quick to call Papi a whiner about his contract. He was asked questions about it from a reporter and answered them. If the Sox dont show interest in resigning Papi after his deal is up, what did some here expect him to say? He will go somewhere else and play if he and another team feels he can still go. He wanted 1 more year added to his deal when asked about it. Hes earned it IMHO. This was really a non story that fans and the media turned into a big deal. He never said anything about respect but some here are apparently still all bowed up about last years interviews.

    Theres like 4 threads here on the topic clogging up the 1st page.

     
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    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    My complaint is that so many here were quick to call Papi a whiner about his contract. He was asked questions about it from a reporter and answered them. If the Sox dont show interest in resigning Papi after his deal is up, what did some here expect him to say? He will go somewhere else and play if he and another team feels he can still go. He wanted 1 more year added to his deal when asked about it. Hes earned it IMHO. This was really a non story that fans and the media turned into a big deal. He never said anything about respect but some here are apparently still all bowed up about last years interviews.

    Theres like 4 threads here on the topic clogging up the 1st page.

     

    +100

    Can anyone imagine this even being noticed if the player in question was almost anyone other than David Ortiz? A guy with one year left on his contract hints that if he does not receive an offer that is to his liking, he could go elsewhere. OMG, the horror.

     
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  • You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    "We're good. We're good. We talked, they're talking and I just asked for one year," Ortiz said on a WEEI.com podcast, reiterating comments he made in December at his charity golf tournament. "I didn't ask for anything crazy. It wasn't like I asked for a five-year deal. It's a one-year extension I asked for.

    "Everything is going well. We had a great conversation. They are happy about what we talked about."

    http://espn.go.com/boston/mlb/story/_/id/10373564/david-ortiz-says-talked-boston-red-sox-one-year-extension

     
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    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    My complaint is that so many here were quick to call Papi a whiner about his contract. He was asked questions about it from a reporter and answered them. If the Sox dont show interest in resigning Papi after his deal is up, what did some here expect him to say? He will go somewhere else and play if he and another team feels he can still go. He wanted 1 more year added to his deal when asked about it. Hes earned it IMHO. This was really a non story that fans and the media turned into a big deal. He never said anything about respect but some here are apparently still all bowed up about last years interviews.


    He IS a whiner about his contract and he whines about it in public. This is a matter to be discussed with the management behind closed doors. When reporters ask him about his contract a generic "I am sure it will all work out" would be a much more palatable response then what he said. And this is not the first year he has done it.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

    In response to devildavid's comment:

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

     

    WRONG ..... Bill-806 is an equal opportunity critic of "OF ALL OVER PAID/OVER RATED/ PLAYERS IN THEIR TWILIGHT" !!!   As DAD would say.....  "MY SON SHOULD GET CREDIT FOR BEING THE WATCHDOG FOR RED SOX NATION"  !!!!

    Bill, you are good man, a good American, and a good Red Sox fan. But you are so wrong about Big Papi. He just helped deliver another championship. Yes, he is closer to the end of his career than the beginning. But he is not overpaid or overrated. He has delivered the goods! There is no reason to warn us about Papi except to warn us he may lead the Sox to victory, which is what he has done consistently throughout his career. Give the man his due and let up on him. Papi is not a problem!




    DEVILDAVE, SPACEMAN. & MOON.......    Please don't demonise the messanger here......  Look at what the BOSTON MEDIA is saying ???  I think that there is a school of thought out there that says "AT 15MIL PER YEAR, IT CAN'T GO ON FOREVAA" !!!  And that is what the RED SOX are dealing with ....... "COGGLINS LAW, everything comes to an end, and usually not well"  !!!!




    Bill, if you think my post demonizes you, you are being over sensitive.

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