Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from michaelsjr. Show michaelsjr's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    Papi is a simple man.  RS pay him to hit the ball long, hard and often - not split the atom or be a pr genius with the press hounds.  Papi is also emotional - when he is happy, he has million dollar smile and swing... when he is not, he cannot hide it such as with marathon bombing or dragging out contract negotiations.

    The FO, fans, media and whole baseball world understand that when he is down to 1 yr he gets nervous and begins to feel as if he isn't getting due respect.  A journalist getting him to say something about it is like shooting fish in a barrel and it goes viral and Papi has to try to defend himself.

    All he wants is a little piece of mind and a year or 2 tacked on.  Crumbs from the Red Sox table in the scheme of the things.  So all the folks balking at him over this latest comment the media blew up should ask themselves if they really want him batting against the RS?  Think you feared Cano?  I'd fear Papi a lot more stepping up to bat in pinstripes.

    Sure baseball is a business, but its more than just a business.  Any RS fan hoping or willing to cut ties with Papi at this point over a few dollars isn't much of a fan in my book.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    posted at 1/27/2014 11:24 PM EST

    • moonslav59
    • Posts: 39936
    • First: 9/27/2005
    • Last: 1/31/2014

    Because of racism and people being afraid to call it that.

     
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    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    I want to ad that I have watched this thread for days and nothing disgusted me more than the above post by moonslav59

     


    JD Drew was bludgeoned here in Boston, was that racist? Easily the most dissapointing post by moonslav59 ever. And I could go on and on, I use the "Drew" example as the easiest counter but obviously there is much more that could be said... but why beat a dead horse. The dead horse being "racism" as it barely registers on the national level any longer. Most of us have grown up.

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    OK, I will bite ...... Besides some "hot vacation spots (all inclusive for safty), please tell me/us about all the good things that comes out of Mexico since the year in our lord of 2000 ??????    BZZZZZZZZZ   Times up !!!

     

    I rest my case.



    Thats fine, but it was MY case to rest. The sad part is that Bill doesn't even see where his attitude is bigoted-and thats the first step to fix it.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to slasher9's comment:

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

     



    "Nothing good ever came out of Mexico". Nuff said.




    Bill=the ultimate hypocrite.....

    OK, I will bite ...... Besides some "hot vacation spots (all inclusive for safty), please tell me/us about all the good things that comes out of Mexico since the year in our lord of 2000 ??????    BZZZZZZZZZ   Times up !!!




    Really???  SMH. 

    Bill, i honestly believe you should be banned from this site now.



He doesn't even try and hide his bogotry, and yet some here claim his posts are not influenced by bigotry.




Moon,

Here in lies the problem I have with your thesis.  Of course Bill, Stiffy, et al. have a decidedly obvious inclination toward the "race baiting.....  racist......  bigoted......  etc.....   The problem I have with you, & this line of thinking is that it is so intellectually lazy.  As a fiscal conservative / social liberal to moderate, I take great offense in your broad brush painting of ALL conservatives as being bigoted, a la MSNBC's mantra.  It's sad!  & below you!  If you have a problem with an individual displaying quasi "racist" /. bigoted rhetoric, then call them out.  Don't play this mamby pamby game of alluding to "racist" rhetoric by "some" on this board.  Man up & call it what it is at the time that it is said.  I AGREE.....  that Bill & Stiffy routinely traffic in this word play.  So just FFFFFF'n say it at the time, & leave the rest of us out of your fantasy of ALL conservative being "racist."  Seriously....  Stop the nibbling at the edges.  You WELL KNOW that I have  been one of the biggest antagonist with respect to Bill & Stiffy playing the racial demagoguery card.  So cut the shhhhhhhITE with the "some" on this board" BS.  Just come out & say it!  Don't lump the rest of us in with these trolls.

Sorry to get this in your face, but I'm offended by your broad brush.

 
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  • You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:

    I want to ad that I have watched this thread for days and nothing disgusted me more than the above post by moonslav59

     


    JD Drew was bludgeoned here in Boston, was that racist? Easily the most dissapointing post by moonslav59 ever. And I could go on and on, I use the "Drew" example as the easiest counter but obviously there is much more that could be said... but why beat a dead horse. The dead horse being "racism" as it barely registers on the national level any longer. Most of us have grown up.



    JD Drew was no Papi- not even close.

    Racism in America is not a "dead horse".

    You, sir, are in denial.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    OK, I will bite ...... Besides some "hot vacation spots (all inclusive for safty), please tell me/us about all the good things that comes out of Mexico since the year in our lord of 2000 ??????    BZZZZZZZZZ   Times up !!!

     

    I rest my case.



    Thats fine, but it was MY case to rest. The sad part is that Bill doesn't even see where his attitude is bigoted-and thats the first step to fix it.



    My "case" was that some posters venemous posts are rooted in bigotry or racism. Others came to BILL's defense by claiming he was not a racist or bigot.

    BILL's follow-up statement "rested my case". It's clearly denial.

    You have the right to continue your case as long as you see fit, but in my opinion, you basically just admitted that it's denial that keeps these guys from taking that first step to recovery.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    Moon,

    Here in lies the problem I have with your thesis.  Of course Bill, Stiffy, et al. have a decidedly obvious inclination toward the "race baiting.....  racist......  bigoted......  etc.....   The problem I have with you, & this line of thinking is that it is so intellectually lazy.  As a fiscal conservative / social liberal to moderate, I take great offense in your broad brush painting of ALL conservatives as being bigoted, a la MSNBC's mantra.  It's sad!  & below you!  If you have a problem with an individual displaying quasi "racist" /. bigoted rhetoric, then call them out.  Don't play this mamby pamby game of alluding to "racist" rhetoric by "some" on this board.  Man up & call it what it is at the time that it is said.  I AGREE.....  that Bill & Stiffy routinely traffic in this word play.  So just FFFFFF'n say it at the time, & leave the rest of us out of your fantasy of ALL conservative being "racist."  Seriously....  Stop the nibbling at the edges.  You WELL KNOW that I have  been one of the biggest antagonist with respect to Bill & Stiffy playing the racial demagoguery card.  So cut the shhhhhhhITE with the "some" on this board" BS.  Just come out & say it!  Don't lump the rest of us in with these trolls.

    Sorry to get this in your face, but I'm offended by your broad brush.

     

    Never even came close to even implying all , most or even a significant amount of conservatives are bigots or racists.

    I'm not lazy- just perceptive.

     
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  • You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Moon,

    Here in lies the problem I have with your thesis.  Of course Bill, Stiffy, et al. have a decidedly obvious inclination toward the "race baiting.....  racist......  bigoted......  etc.....   The problem I have with you, & this line of thinking is that it is so intellectually lazy.  As a fiscal conservative / social liberal to moderate, I take great offense in your broad brush painting of ALL conservatives as being bigoted, a la MSNBC's mantra.  It's sad!  & below you!  If you have a problem with an individual displaying quasi "racist" /. bigoted rhetoric, then call them out.  Don't play this mamby pamby game of alluding to "racist" rhetoric by "some" on this board.  Man up & call it what it is at the time that it is said.  I AGREE.....  that Bill & Stiffy routinely traffic in this word play.  So just FFFFFF'n say it at the time, & leave the rest of us out of your fantasy of ALL conservative being "racist."  Seriously....  Stop the nibbling at the edges.  You WELL KNOW that I have  been one of the biggest antagonist with respect to Bill & Stiffy playing the racial demagoguery card.  So cut the shhhhhhhITE with the "some" on this board" BS.  Just come out & say it!  Don't lump the rest of us in with these trolls.

    Sorry to get this in your face, but I'm offended by your broad brush.

     

    Never even came close to even implying all , most or even a significant amount of conservatives are bigots or racists.

    I'm not lazy- just perceptive.



    Just a suggestion: instead of saying that a few posters here are bigoted, why not just name them so others won't think they are in that group. Frankly, I see only two here who are consistently bigoted: Softy and Bill.

     
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  • You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Moon,

    Here in lies the problem I have with your thesis.  Of course Bill, Stiffy, et al. have a decidedly obvious inclination toward the "race baiting.....  racist......  bigoted......  etc.....   The problem I have with you, & this line of thinking is that it is so intellectually lazy.  As a fiscal conservative / social liberal to moderate, I take great offense in your broad brush painting of ALL conservatives as being bigoted, a la MSNBC's mantra.  It's sad!  & below you!  If you have a problem with an individual displaying quasi "racist" /. bigoted rhetoric, then call them out.  Don't play this mamby pamby game of alluding to "racist" rhetoric by "some" on this board.  Man up & call it what it is at the time that it is said.  I AGREE.....  that Bill & Stiffy routinely traffic in this word play.  So just FFFFFF'n say it at the time, & leave the rest of us out of your fantasy of ALL conservative being "racist."  Seriously....  Stop the nibbling at the edges.  You WELL KNOW that I have  been one of the biggest antagonist with respect to Bill & Stiffy playing the racial demagoguery card.  So cut the shhhhhhhITE with the "some" on this board" BS.  Just come out & say it!  Don't lump the rest of us in with these trolls.

    Sorry to get this in your face, but I'm offended by your broad brush.

     

    Never even came close to even implying all , most or even a significant amount of conservatives are bigots or racists.

    I'm not lazy- just perceptive.




    Moon,

    As you well know, I have been one of the biggest antagonist to Bill & Stiffy's veiled racism.  I have called it out AT THE TIME, when it happened.  I don't however, cast aspersions on those around them who happen to feel a certain way about a certain subject, imputing "racist" motives on everything, based soley upon my anti-racist, anti-gay bias.  I find it interesting that you are this vocal on this particular subject, painting with a broad brush, but casually stepped aside during the latest debate when one particular poster decided to condemn gays in no uncertain terms?  This poster is well known, and she is more than vocal.  You were there, but had absolutely nothing to say?

    I guess it's all about whose ox is being gored?  Do you pick & choose who certain rhetoric is acceptable from?  Can I get a cheat sheet on the matrix by which we choose to confront such vile rhetoric?

    My point?  If you're going to paint with a broad brush, why not just come out & name names?  Call it when you see it.  Don't allude to nebulous inferred racism, by some amorphous some.....  Just call out who you are talking about, & leave the rest of us out of this.

    For the record.....  I abhor the nit-picking at Papi!  He is the greatest Red Sox hero of our time.  Perhaps the greatest in the past......   60+ years!  I love the guy like few other Boston Sports Heroes.  Larry Bird & Bobby Orr are the closest in my formative lifetime.  KG & Peirce pale in comparison.  Papi has been an epically transformative sports figure in Boston!  So I take no backseat to fighting the anti Papi-bashing crusaders.  I'm simply tired of the universal cries of racism, designed to shut down debate, simply because of a few ABVIOUS nit-wits.

     
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  • You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to JoseLaguna's comment:

    You can't name specific posters or else you will be banned. Doing that is verboten by the mods. The thread this a.m. about Crawford included most of them but then BDC took down that thread.

     




    I don't get it Lagoon.  Why are you letting the mythical 10 - 15 play you?  Why do you let Bill, Stiffy, & his friends live rent free in your head?  They're playing you! 

    IRONIC ?

    Unfortunately.....  only you know I'm mimicing you & your words to others.  The only one who won't get the irony?  YOU!  LOL

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:

    I want to ad that I have watched this thread for days and nothing disgusted me more than the above post by moonslav59

     


    JD Drew was bludgeoned here in Boston, was that racist? Easily the most dissapointing post by moonslav59 ever. And I could go on and on, I use the "Drew" example as the easiest counter but obviously there is much more that could be said... but why beat a dead horse. The dead horse being "racism" as it barely registers on the national level any longer. Most of us have grown up.



    JD Drew was no Papi- not even close.

    Racism in America is not a "dead horse".

    You, sir, are in denial.



    You are wrong! I will criticize Ortiz all I want and it won't be because he is black!  U blanketed the entire populace of people knocking Ortiz as racists. You should be more responsible for your words than they... injecting race into a conversation that really is about Ortiz annullay insisting on MORE respect.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    In response to JoseLaguna's comment:

    Some on this forum ( maybe 10-15 ) over the years are politically ultra-conservative, bigoted, racist, and narrow minded.  I believe that Moonslav was alluding to them. Those 10-15 also start most threads and post the most, inflame, incite, and troll the most. They are here to annoy Sox fans and to inject politics into the forum.

    Liberals don't come here to divide the forum. Most controversial threads are started and kept alive by conservatives and rival fans. It is blatantly obvious. Many simpletons are brainwashed by radio talk shows and regard it as gospel and objective and sincere when the hosts have admitted that it is only ENTERTAINMENT and not responsible journalism. 

    Nobody is painting with a broad brush here.  Look at the threads and take note of who starts them day after day. The most astute members start threads that disappear in one day and that is why they stop doing so. Meanwhile a KFC thread goes on for days.




    Really? Why did you target yazzer for this behaviour? He is a liberal. I think I could build a list of posters you accuse of trying to injur/divide the forum who are Liberals.

     
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  • You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    Never even came close to even implying all , most or even a significant amount of conservatives are bigots or racists.

    I'm not lazy- just perceptive.

    [/QUOTE]

    Just a suggestion: instead of saying that a few posters here are bigoted, why not just name them so others won't think they are in that group. Frankly, I see only two here who are consistently bigoted: Softy and Bill.

     

    Those are the two that are so obvious, but what of those who come afterwards and defend them by saying they "are not racist" or bigoted, and also pile on with the same venom and absurd overboard criticisms of Papi?

    I don't keep track of every poster's name. Some change so often, it's hard to know who is who around here anymore.

    I really don't think my statement was "broad brush". I undertsand that many posters can disagree with what Papi did and not have a shred of racism in them, but to me it is clear that there is a strong racial element to the continuous thread after thread bashing of the biggest Sox hero ever. I mean seriously, Papi has been underpaid by $40M not even counting his post-season value! He is stuck between a rock and a hard place by the QO- loss of draft pick MLB rule that pretty much assures he's not going to make $34-40M/2 on the open market, which is probably what he might get without the team losing a 1st rounder.

    Nobody likes seeing these things go public, but Papi's case is unique. Perhaps no player in recent MLB history has done more to bring 3 rings to his team than Papi. He wears his heart on his sleeve and is vocal. Maybe that upsets a lot of people. I'm fine with that, but this and other threads have clearly gone overboard. It's been ongoing on this site for years. yes, there are 2 clear ring leaders, but when posters join in without distancing themselves from these clowns, and even some who go out of their way to defend them, it's hard not to believe they share the same feelings and perspectives... either that or they don't even know what bogotry is to know if they themselves are one or not.

    It seems clear to me.

    Racism and bigotry is clear to me. It is still a force in the world today. Some here claim it is not. That does not make them a racist or bigot, but when it is being clearly exhibited right here on this thread, and someone denies it exists, I can't help but wonder.

    Racism and bigotry have their foundation in ignorance, and being ignorant does not mean one is necessarily evil, but that's a point better discussed on a different forum. 

    I stand by my opinion. I'm not painting all Papi criticizers or bashers as racists. I'm not sure Jose Laguna's claim that there are 10-15 is accurate, but the discrimination spectrum is not always as clear as night and day.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    Moon,

    As you well know, I have been one of the biggest antagonist to Bill & Stiffy's veiled racism.  I have called it out AT THE TIME, when it happened.  I don't however, cast aspersions on those around them who happen to feel a certain way about a certain subject, imputing "racist" motives on everything, based soley upon my anti-racist, anti-gay bias. 

    I hope you are not implying that I cast racism around all the time. I don't.

     

    I find it interesting that you are this vocal on this particular subject, painting with a broad brush, but casually stepped aside during the latest debate when one particular poster decided to condemn gays in no uncertain terms?  This poster is well known, and she is more than vocal.  You were there, but had absolutely nothing to say?

    I honestly do not recall that thread. I have battled with softy many times about his anti-gay position.

    (Note: I don't read every post and often purposely skip some poster's posts.)

     

    I guess it's all about whose ox is being gored?  Do you pick & choose who certain rhetoric is acceptable from?  Can I get a cheat sheet on the matrix by which we choose to confront such vile rhetoric?

    If I read any "vile rhetoric", I will respond. I am a very strong supporter of diversity and equal rights to all.

     

    My point?  If you're going to paint with a broad brush, why not just come out & name names?  Call it when you see it.  Don't allude to nebulous inferred racism, by some amorphous some.....  Just call out who you are talking about, & leave the rest of us out of this.

    Like I said earlier, I do not keep track of every poster's name, especially since so many of the racists and bigots have had to change their names several times, and some, i suspect have multiple names, but I do know softy is an obvious racist and bigot. BILL may not be an intentional bigot, I just think he does not see the whole picture too well and jumps to conclusions based on limited facts.

     

    For the record.....  I abhor the nit-picking at Papi!  He is the greatest Red Sox hero of our time.  Perhaps the greatest in the past......   60+ years!  I love the guy like few other Boston Sports Heroes.  Larry Bird & Bobby Orr are the closest in my formative lifetime.  KG & Peirce pale in comparison.  Papi has been an epically transformative sports figure in Boston!  So I take no backseat to fighting the anti Papi-bashing crusaders.  I'm simply tired of the universal cries of racism, designed to shut down debate, simply because of a few ABVIOUS nit-wits.

    I see your point, but feel some people pile on after reading posts from the bigots while going out of their way to praise them right after they make it known where their foundation is. 

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why does every conversation about David Ortiz have to be so venomous (on both sides)?

    JD Drew was bludgeoned here in Boston, was that racist? Easily the most dissapointing post by moonslav59 ever. And I could go on and on, I use the "Drew" example as the easiest counter but obviously there is much more that could be said... but why beat a dead horse. The dead horse being "racism" as it barely registers on the national level any longer. Most of us have grown up.

    [/QUOTE]

    JD Drew was no Papi- not even close.

    Racism in America is not a "dead horse".

    You, sir, are in denial.

    [/QUOTE]

    You are wrong! I will criticize Ortiz all I want and it won't be because he is black!  U blanketed the entire populace of people knocking Ortiz as racists. You should be more responsible for your words than they... injecting race into a conversation that really is about Ortiz annullay insisting on MORE respect.

     

    1) I am not calling you a racist for foolishly believing that "racism barely registers on the national level any longer". It has taken on a new form for some, and many have never "grown up".

    2) I did not blanket the "entire polpulace of people knocking Ortiz as being racist". No place did I even come close to saying that or even implying that. It is you who needs to be more responsible with your words.

    3) Clearly, for some here, this is just a conversation about Papi's near annual insistence on more respect (and money), and some thinking he is wrong for doing so are not racists or bigots, but this has been a ongoing bashfest spread over many threads and years. The amount of venom spewed is way out of proportion to the off the field deeds of Papi.

    Papi's situation is unique. His "off seasons" between ages 32-34 certainly warranted caution on Sox management's part, and I have never criticized Sox management for not going longterm with Papi after his 5 year deal expired after the 2011 season. Papi's age and 3 years "slump" are concerns. I have never said Papi deserves some outlandish deal either in money or length. 

    My position is that Papi lacks the leverage that most MLB players have due to the fact that not many teams will signan aging FA to a short-term deal, if it means they lose a 1st round draft pick. Most QO free agents sign long term deals. Most are younger. I get that, and that is why I never fault Sox management for not going too large or long, but I cannot understand why it is so upsetting to peopler that Papi's only real leverage is to go public. No player has done what Papi has done in the postseason.  Looking from his persective, he has 9according to fangraphs) been underpaid by about $40M since joining the Sox, and that does not include his post season value, which is off the charts when compared to other high paid ML'ers.

    I've never heard him threaten to sit out a year, to hold out, or demand a trade like many pro players have done over the years. he has talked of "going elsewhere", but has clearly articulated that he wants to stay in Boston. Papi may not have much time left. He's looking to maximize his income before that day finally comes when he hangs them up (hopefully, still in a Sox uniform).

    I get the argument that he's making a ton of money, and that he has a year left on a signed contract, but I really don't see what is so harmful to claim he deserves more, deserves an extension, and of course ties it to "respect"- like most atheletes do. I can understand how others can see it much differently, but the tone and undertones associated with some of the criticisms here reeks of the old "there goes an uppity" you know what, and how dare he not be so thankful for what he has, despite the facts that show he has been underpaid (or as some see it: disrepsected).

    Papi's 2013 playoff heroics alone were astronomical. His value to this team was near immeasurable. He had as many postseason HRs as the rest of th e team combined. The grand slam vs the Tigers was unforgettable. He had over a 4th of our team's WS hits. His WS OPS was about the same as the next two best Sox players combined. What he did in 2013 when combined with 2004 and 2007 is unprecendented. He's not JD Drew. He's not Manny, although at least Manny got $20M x 8 during a time when contracts were lower than now (and don't tell me manny's playing poor defense was the reason).

    I have not given my position on what Papi is worth in 2015, or what I think the Sox should offer him now or after this season's over. If the Sox want to wait to extend, it's fine with me, as long as we don't lose Papi to another team, but to me, Papi has clearly earned the right to ask for an extension. If anybody in sports history has ever deserved it, Papi is that guy. So, for anyone to go off so vehemently on Papi raises a red flag to me. It does not mean they are automatically categorized as a racist or bigot, but if the history of bigotry and racism is there, then I do not think my connecting the dots is inappropriate. It is certainly less damaging than those who cannot bring themselves to make even one positive statement about Papi without attaching something negative to him, or those who want to declare racism dead in America, as if just saying it and believeing it makes it so.

     
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