why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxyjim. Show soxyjim's posts

    why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    terry waits until the sox are at least 6 to 8 runs behind. i am not talking about
    last nites game because they were short on pitchers.if a pitcher gives up 4
    runs it is time to go get him. as i always said he is loyal to a fault.and i bet
    j d plays tonite.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    Why do so many posters here feel the need to question Francona's ability to manage his pitchers (batting lineup, reserves, bullpen, in-game strategy, you name it) when the Sox are the best team in baseball (ignoring the 0-6 start) and have already won 2 WS championships in Francona's 8-year tenure?

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from sundvl20. Show sundvl20's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    He left Wake in trying to get him thru 5 so he could get the win. Dont agree with it but that was clearly the case
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    In Response to Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.:
    He left Wake in trying to get him thru 5 so he could get the win. Dont agree with it but that was clearly the case
    Posted by feelec


    I agree that clearly was the case, but there were two outs(actually he had already gotten three outs). If there had been no or one out he would have taken him out after the Reynolds walk, but with two outs you have to give your veteran a shot at the win and he knows he is facing the Orioles so he has to figure his offense will score more runs 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrmojo1120. Show mrmojo1120's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    Last night he left Wake in because the Sox were a little short on bullpen help after the 16 inning game the night/morning before.Although Wakefield gave up 7 runs last night,only 3 were earned runs.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    People are blinded by Wakefield trying to get a record, and forgetting that Tito was trying to squeeze whatever he could out of a bad inning and Wake was at 90 pitches. The times he waits too long are when the team is down 5-0 and some of the bizarre relief moves, like leaving in Albers v. the Cubs to die, and cost the team an easy win. 100 percent of big league managers would have stretched Wakefield as far as Tito did due to the 16-inning game. Poor time to rip Tito was last night. Oh, did anyone catch that the Sox won the game? Or that the team is in first place? or that the team has 1 starter out for the season, 1 starter in chronic pain and out for a while, 1 starter who is emotionally a wreck, and then Beckett, Lester, and Wakefield.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    It's all about saving the BP. He has always managed two or three games ahead, instead of concentrating on the task at hand. That's why you've seen him pack it in so many times whn we get behind, by several runs, even though our offense can explode for a huge inning like we did last night in the 8th.
    He brought in Wheeler for cripes sake! But Wheeler fooled him and actually pitched well and kept us in the game. Probably messed up Tito's schedule.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    In Response to Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.:
    It's all about saving the BP. He has always managed two or three games ahead, instead of concentrating on the task at hand. That's why you've seen him pack it in so many times whn we get behind, by several runs, even though our offense can explode for a huge inning like we did last night in the 8th. He brought in Wheeler for cripes sake! But Wheeler fooled him and actually pitched well and kept us in the game. Probably messed up Tito's schedule.
    Posted by Alibiike


    Wheeler's been pitching well since coming off the DL, so that doesn't really fit your theory too well.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    I wonder if these are the type of performances the OP is talking about in the manager leaving the starter in too long?

    5 IP, 6 R
    .2 IP, 8 R
    3 IP, 8 R
    4 IP, 8 R
    4.1 IP, 9 R
    5.2 IP, 8 R
    2 IP, 7 R
    3 IP, 8 R 
    3.2 IP, 7 R
    5 IP, 7 R
    2 IP, 6 ER

    I'd wait for an answer, but he has just 52 posts so I don't expect him back soon. The point is all these performances came against the Red Sox. That's what the critics don't realize. All managers try to push the starters as much as possible.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    The thing is, a lot of posters watch ONLY Red Sox games. If they watched other games around the league, they'd see Francona is no different than any other manager there. The last thing he wants is to have to go to the bullpen in the second inning, so they leave the starter in and hope he works through it. Sometimes he does (Lackey held on against TB, at least good enough), sometimes he doesn't (Wake last night).

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    In Response to Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.:
    The thing is, a lot of posters watch ONLY Red Sox games. If they watched other games around the league, they'd see Francona is no different than any other manager there. The last thing he wants is to have to go to the bullpen in the second inning, so they leave the starter in and hope he works through it. Sometimes he does (Lackey held on against TB, at least good enough), sometimes he doesn't (Wake last night).
    Posted by LloydDobler


    It's not often you're wrong, but in this case, lloyd, you're wrong. They only half-watch Red Sox games. 

    Laughing

    As my post above yours shows, the exact same thing they rip Francona for doing other managers do in games against the Red Sox, but they seem to be oblivious to what is happening. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from peanutandme. Show peanutandme's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    I have never been a fan of Francona's managing ability, but that said I have come to realize that he will not and run, hardly if ever use the bunt, waits for the long ball because he will not make a player sacriface a AB in place of small ball, leaves his pitcher's in to long[he is trying despartly to get Wakefield to 200 wins] and at times sacrifaces games that are winable.
     That being said I just say thank God the Sox are good enough[in most games] to  overcome Terry's lack of managing and still win games.

    GOOD GUY, JUST NOT A GOOD BETWEEN THE LINES MANAGER.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    I think a more relevant question is, why does Joe Maddon take pitchers out so soon?  His bullpen is like a revolving door with practically everyone of them pitching in every game.  Thus he used 8 relievers Sunday night and I think 5 last night.  I think the Rays lost last night to the Yankees because their bullpen gave up 3 runs in 3 innings because they were/are tired. 

    If Maddon could, I think he would bring in a reliever for every batter and maybe even every pitch.  He loves to make those dramatic managerial moves that show that he and only he knows which pitcher will work in which situation.  Last night he was stuck with that one guy who gave up three walks in the top of the 9th--and the ball game after the Rays had a 4-2 lead at the end of 6. 

    In all honesty, I think knowing when to leave a pitcher in or when to bring somebody else in is probably the toughest decision a manager makes.  Despite my complaint about Joe Maddon, I would rarely second guess what any manager does because I think they all have pretty good reasons for what they decide.  And some days the pitchers do exactly what the manager intends/hopes, and some days they don't. 

    As for Francona, he has managed with a very inconsistent pitching staff this year.  Beckett has been solid, but Buchholz and Lester have not been, and both are on the DL right now.  Dice-K is long gone.  Jenks is a basket case.  Wake can be good, but he is 45 and this year the knuckler has been really jumping around and creating problems for Salty (thus 4 unearned runs last night after the passed ball on a K).  Miller may be regressing to little or no control.  Weiland, starting tonight, showed very little in his first start.  Lackey has been hugely inconsistent and emotional.  Pap is getting the saves, but is nevertheless scary every time he goes out there with his ERA of 4.  For his next birthday, Terry needs to ask his dad to send him a mine detector, because managing this pitching staff is like trying to get through a mine field. 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    In Response to Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.:
    It's all about saving the BP. He has always managed two or three games ahead, instead of concentrating on the task at hand. That's why you've seen him pack it in so many times whn we get behind, by several runs, even though our offense can explode for a huge inning like we did last night in the 8th. He brought in Wheeler for cripes sake! But Wheeler fooled him and actually pitched well and kept us in the game. Probably messed up Tito's schedule.
    Posted by Alibiike
    Does anybody here look at stats or do we all just remember a few bad appearances, make a determination that this is what a player is and always will  be?

    Wheeler has been very good since returning from the DL. Not a surprise really considering how consistent he was before signing with the RS.

    Since return from the DL in the month of June Wheeler made 8 appearances and posted a 0.913 WHIP. In July he has been even better in 7 appearances posting a 0.556 WHIP.

    This sort of underscores just how "gut feeling" so much of the Francona bashing is on this forum.

    Wakefield was left in as long as he was not because of some sort of loyalty. This is after all the same pitcher who sat last year because Francona had what he believed were 5 better options to be starters.

    He was left in because the RS had just played a 16 inning game where he had used much of his bullpen and because the game following that one he has Weiland going who was less than inspiring in his last start and Miller in the following game, whom appeared to revert to his walk-walk blast syndrome that has marked his MLB career. It IMO had absolutely nothing to do with trying to get Wakefield win 198 or whatever it is.

    To the RS fans that complain about every little thing and think the current regime is so bad I wish there was an alternative reality you could visit for a few days. One where Frank McCourt owned the RS, Omar Minaya was the GM and Don Zimmer the manager.

    But that might end the charm of BDC, which is enjoying the thrill of watching the RS win a game and the agony of reading the posts about it the next morning.

    On a more serious note, I post this often; if you take the time to question why the RS do what they do and take a minute to review pertinent stats you almost always will learn the reason why they did it. I seldom know off the top of my head why they do what they do, but a visit to Baseball Reference usually provides an answer.

    Just my takes
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    In Response to Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.:
    In Response to Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long. : It's not often you're wrong, but in this case, lloyd, you're wrong. They only half-watch Red Sox games.  As my post above yours shows, the exact same thing they rip Francona for doing other managers do in games against the Red Sox, but they seem to be oblivious to what is happening. 
    Posted by royf19


    Oblivious is indeed the right word.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from dustcover. Show dustcover's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    In Response to why does terry leave pitchers in to long.:

    Terry leaves pitchers in to long because both Tito and Wake long for the days of their youth.


    On the other hand, particularly following a 16-inning marathon game, Tito occasionally leaves an innings-eater starter, such as Wake, in too long in the hope of salvaging his bullpen.

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from trouts. Show trouts's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    In Response to Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.:
    I have never been a fan of Francona's managing ability, but that said I have come to realize that he will not and run, hardly if ever use the bunt, waits for the long ball because he will not make a player sacriface a AB in place of small ball, leaves his pitcher's in to long[he is trying despartly to get Wakefield to 200 wins] and at times sacrifaces games that are winable.  That being said I just say thank God the Sox are good enough[in most games] to  overcome Terry's lack of managing and still win games. GOOD GUY, JUST NOT A GOOD BETWEEN THE LINES MANAGER.
    Posted by peanutandme
    I think it was pretty obvious last night that Tito left Wake in to get him through 5 and a "W". Was it to the detriment of the team? I thought so then and still do.
     About Tito bunting, did you notice that a Varitek sacrifice was critical to the 1-0 win in Tampa Bay? I'd like him to play more "small ball" and pundits say that in this new steroid-free era low-scoring games will be more the rule than heretofore.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    In Response to Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.:
    I have never been a fan of Francona's managing ability, but that said I have come to realize that he will not and run, hardly if ever use the bunt, waits for the long ball because he will not make a player sacriface a AB in place of small ball, leaves his pitcher's in to long[he is trying despartly to get Wakefield to 200 wins] and at times sacrifaces games that are winable.  That being said I just say thank God the Sox are good enough[in most games] to  overcome Terry's lack of managing and still win games. GOOD GUY, JUST NOT A GOOD BETWEEN THE LINES MANAGER.
    Posted by peanutandme

    Well said, we all know the Sox can't and won't win every game. We also know that most wins by any team have nothing to do with what their manager did or didn't do during the game. Then we have those games that are in need of a manager to make a decision or a move that would, hopefully, have a positive affect on the outcome of the game. Here is where we, Francona's detractors, feel he is severely deficient. We don't understand quitting on a current game for the sake of tomorrow's game. We want him to try to win every game that's within reasonable reach. We want him to try to manufacture a needed run in a tie game or a 1 run game, if it's in the last 3 innings. We DO NOT CARE what any other manager does. There is only one team with a better record than the Sox. Why would we want our manager to emulate any other manager who's team's record isn't as good as the Sox record?? If Francona's managerial omissions were infrequent, it might be acceptable, but he pulls a "Grady" multiple times a week.
    In the 16 inning win, he wasted 5 innings of relievers by not trying to end it in the 11th inning.
    Unless he actually does something during a win that made a positive difference in the outcome of the game, I will not praise him for the win. I think it's a sad situation when his minions feel the need to praise him when the Sox win. Even if he did something that helped them win the game, why would praise be appropriate for doing what he's well paid to do?
    Unless....... his minions, like his detractors, are surprised that he actually helped the team win, which I believe is the case.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimdavis. Show jimdavis's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    In Response to Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.:
    I wonder if these are the type of performances the OP is talking about in the manager leaving the starter in too long? 5 IP, 6 R .2 IP, 8 R 3 IP, 8 R 4 IP, 8 R 4.1 IP, 9 R 5.2 IP, 8 R 2 IP, 7 R 3 IP, 8 R  3.2 IP, 7 R 5 IP, 7 R 2 IP, 6 ER I'd wait for an answer, but he has just 52 posts so I don't expect him back soon. The point is all these performances came against the Red Sox. That's what the critics don't realize. All managers try to push the starters as much as possible.
    Posted by royf19


    This is the post of the year.  When another pitcher gives up a ton of runs early, Sox fans don't think anything of it.  When the shoe is on the other foot, Tito doesn't know what he's doing.  I suggest these guys get the baseball package and watch some west coast games.  It is obvious that Doc Halliday didn't have it yesterday and the Phils let him push it as far as he could.  These managers realize that burning the pen hamstrings them for 2/3 more days.  Why can't the fans realize it?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    In Response to Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.:
    In Response to Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long. : I think it was pretty obvious last night that Tito left Wake in to get him through 5 and a "W". Was it to the detriment of the team? I thought so then and still do.  About Tito bunting, did you notice that a Varitek sacrifice was critical to the 1-0 win in Tampa Bay? I'd like him to play more "small ball" and pundits say that in this new steroid-free era low-scoring games will be more the rule than heretofore.
    Posted by trouts
    Another one of the bashers favorites is bunting.

    How can so many follow this team so closely and not understand their driving philosophies? The RS are a team that believes in SABRmetrics. Those metrics state that the bunt will only slightly increase your odds of scoring a run and will greatly diminish your odds of scoring multiple runs in an inning.

    Even in this reduced scoring era, the MLB ERA average is 3.84. That means on most nights you need to score 5 runs to win a game. So playing for one run innings as a rule isn't such a great way to fly.

    But the situation on Sunday night is where the bunt is perfect, late and tied on the road and the closer in the bullpen.

    Now for all the beefing about how Terry runs his offense in the face of the results. The team is 22 games over .500. They have an MLB best 513 runs (5.45 runs per game). They are on track to score 885 runs. Something is working versus the Angels approach, where they try and kill the opponent with paper cuts. They are on track to score only 567 runs.

    The regular season is all about creating run differential and in that regard the 2011 RS are doing just fine.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from joel49. Show joel49's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    In Response to Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.:
    "He was left in because the RS had just played a 16 inning game where he had used much of his bullpen and because the game following that one he has Weiland going who was less than inspiring in his last start and Miller in the following game, whom appeared to revert to his walk-walk blast syndrome that has marked his MLB career."

    You beat me to it, katz (and you, too, max).  It wasn't just the 16 inning game, but the two coming up that will most likely continue to tax the pen.  Sometimes that simply has to be a consideration.  And I know that it has been said before, but Terry's managing of the pen in that 16 inning affair was brilliant.  Yes, sometimes Terry will go "to" long with a starter, but IMO last night he played his cards correctly, especially given the O's weak BP and the likelihood that his team would score more runs.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    In Response to why does terry leave pitchers in to long.:
    terry waits until the sox are at least 6 to 8 runs behind. i am not talking about last nites game because they were short on pitchers.if a pitcher gives up 4 runs it is time to go get him. as i always said he is loyal to a fault.and i bet j d plays tonite.
    Posted by soxyjim


    Because you can burn out your bullpen very easily; it's a high wire act.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    In Response to Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.:
    In Response to Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long. : "He was left in because the RS had just played a 16 inning game where he had used much of his bullpen and because the game following that one he has Weiland going who was less than inspiring in his last start and Miller in the following game, whom appeared to revert to his walk-walk blast syndrome that has marked his MLB career. " You beat me to it, katz (and you, too, max).  It wasn't just the 16 inning game, but the two coming up that will most likely continue to tax the pen.  Sometimes that simply has to be a consideration.  And I know that it has been said before, but Terry's managing of the pen in that 16 inning affair was brilliant.  Yes, sometimes Terry will go "to" long with a starter, but IMO last night he played his cards correctly, especially given the O's weak BP and the likelihood that his team would score more runs.
    Posted by joel49



    Good posts; both of you.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    In Response to Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.:
    In Response to Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long. : Well said, we all know the Sox can't and won't win every game. We also know that most wins by any team have nothing to do with what their manager did or didn't do during the game. Then we have those games that are in need of a manager to make a decision or a move that would, hopefully, have a positive affect on the outcome of the game. Here is where we, Francona's detractors, feel he is severely deficient. We don't understand quitting on a current game for the sake of tomorrow's game. We want him to try to win every game that's within reasonable reach. We want him to try to manufacture a needed run in a tie game or a 1 run game, if it's in the last 3 innings. We DO NOT CARE what any other manager does. There is only one team with a better record than the Sox. Why would we want our manager to emulate any other manager who's team's record isn't as good as the Sox record?? If Francona's managerial omissions were infrequent, it might be acceptable, but he pulls a "Grady" multiple times a week. In the 16 inning win, he wasted 5 innings of relievers by not trying to end it in the 11th inning. Unless he actually does something during a win that made a positive difference in the outcome of the game, I will not praise him for the win. I think it's a sad situation when his minions feel the need to praise him when the Sox win. Even if he did something that helped them win the game, why would praise be appropriate for doing what he's well paid to do? Unless....... his minions, like his detractors, are surprised that he actually helped the team win, which I believe is the case.
    Posted by BOSOX1941


    What specifically should Francona have done to end it?  Grabbed a bat and dug in himself?
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from fenwayjack2. Show fenwayjack2's posts

    Re: why does terry leave pitchers in to long.

    That has been my major gripe with Francona from the get go.  Meanwhile Girardi will yank his starter in the 1st inning if it looks like things are going bad. 
     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share