Why has nothing been done about the SP?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    Ali comes through with a classic whine! Well done man!

    If you glass was half-full you'd take a big gulp to make sure it was closer to empty. 

    I have a really crazy idea, I know this one is going to blow your mind - how about wait until the offseason is over to judge the offseason? 

    I know that's a mind-blowing idea. 

    p.s. does trying to trade Ellsbury for Cliff Lee count or have you found another way to minimize that?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Right now if they dont make a trade, I just dint see the point of acquiring any of these FA pitchers. None of them resemble a good upgrade from what we have internally for the price.

    [/QUOTE]

    I think I will have to argue that A. Sanchez does represent a good upgrade.  If you include his postseason numbers last year, he posted a 3.67 ERA in 216 innings.  Even better, if you use only his numbers with Detroit, including postseason, he posted a 3.32 ERA in 95 innings.  Compare his numbers to any of our starters last year.

    Sanchez's asking price of 15 million is not unreasonable considering what other FA's are getting.  The 6 years is a killer though.  Even 5/75 is something I think we should go for.  Why not?  Sanchez projects as well over the next 5 years as anybody we've got.

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Schumpeters-Ghost. Show Schumpeters-Ghost's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    Relax - Dice K and Aaron Cook are both still available.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    Boston have tried to make a couple trades.  One with Marlins and Phillies, but things didnt work out for Boston.  

    Then Boston have contacted Sanchez, Dempster, Lohse, Kuroda, etc, but except Kuroda, they are still looking for a big fat contract.  Now they are going ask for a bigger contract than they were offered by many teams in the month of November toward to today.

    What should Boston do?  I dont want Boston just say "heck, just sign him for five to six years contract for 20mm dollars a year".  Also that is why Boston is still in touch with Hamilton.  I think they are trying to hope that Hamilton just take four years contract so Boston can use Ellsbury for a trade bait to find pitching.  

    Longer these free agency take their time, it is going to give Boston more a tougher time to find pitchings.

    I guess we all have to just wait, and hopefully Boston find all the lucks to pull all the strings together!!

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    In response to GoUconn13's comment:

    What should Boston do?  I dont want Boston just say "heck, just sign him for five to six years contract for 20mm dollars a year".  Also that is why Boston is still in touch with Hamilton.  I think they are trying to hope that Hamilton just take four years contract so Boston can use Ellsbury for a trade bait to find pitching. 


    Will one year of Jacoby Ellsbury be enough to fetch even one year of a starting pitcher the caliber of Anibal Sanchez, Ryan Dempster or Kyle Lohse?

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to EnchiladaT's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Ali wants to know why we cannot be more like the Royals

    [/QUOTE]

    No. But I do wonder how small market teams like the A's and Ray's manage to have great pitching with depth.
    There is no way the Ray's would have dealt us Shields regardless of who they could have gotten from us. They hate us worse that NY.

     

    [/QUOTE]
    You are probably right.  I agree that it is highly unlikely that the Rays would have traded Shields to the Red Sox.  Not sure that it is a matter of hate, just that we are in the same division.    That being said, trading for someone like Shields would have been great for the Red Sox.  We still need to upgrade our starting pitching for next season.  Just not sure when it will happen.  As mentioned by many, Ellsbury probably would be the Red Sox player who will be traded for a starting pitcher.  

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wolfpack13. Show Wolfpack13's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    Is it possible another explanation of why the Sox have done nothing is that the deals Ben put on the table (trades or FA signings) were denied? Is it also possible that what he was offered wasn't good for the Sox?
    I love how the explanations are always "an incompetent GM."

    Would you have liked him to sign Greinke for 25 million? Before you say yes think of this:

    Greinkes ERA last 4 years (I understand ERA isn't everything): 3.5, 3.8, 4.17, 2.16. John Lackey's ERA last 4 years BEFORE SIGNING w/ SOX: 3.8, 3.75, 3.01, 3.56.

    Signing Lackey worst move ever, signing Grienke best move ever. I'm not saying we have the catsass for a GM, but please let his moves take effect. 2013 will be the season in which we know if we have a solid GM on our hands.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    In response to Wolfpack13's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Is it possible another explanation of why the Sox have done nothing is that the deals Ben put on the table (trades or FA signings) were denied? Is it also possible that what he was offered wasn't good for the Sox?
    I love how the explanations are always "an incompetent GM."

    Would you have liked him to sign Greinke for 25 million? Before you say yes think of this:

    Greinkes ERA last 4 years (I understand ERA isn't everything): 3.5, 3.8, 4.17, 2.16. John Lackey's ERA last 4 years BEFORE SIGNING w/ SOX: 3.8, 3.75, 3.01, 3.56.

    Signing Lackey worst move ever, signing Grienke best move ever. I'm not saying we have the catsass for a GM, but please let his moves take effect. 2013 will be the season in which we know if we have a solid GM on our hands.

    [/QUOTE]


    +1

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    Last year, it was said that Ben had no flexibility to acquire top notch players. This year, Ben has flexibility, but is still dealing for second rate players.

    He could have done a much better job at 1B than Napoli. Bringing back Youk, or signing LaRoche made much more sense, since he already picked up Ross to catch.

    The Gomes signing was plain ignorant. Giving a platoon player $5M/yr when he's worth 1M, and can't play defense. I'd have rather had Bay back to play LF.

    13M/yr for Victorino who best year netted him 10M, and coming off one of his worst years. if the goal was eventually trade Ells, Bourn would have made more sense, or even Hamilton (although he brings a lot of baggage IMO).

    And what about D. Ross? 3.1M for a 35 y/o backup C, who made 2.525M his best year? Not a good deal.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from JimfromFlorida. Show JimfromFlorida's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    There were no A type players available other than Hamilton and even he carries injury issues. The contracts for Upton and Grenkie were worse than CC's by the Red Sox. At least hehad 6 years of being the best LF in the AL.

    the sox grilled needs with best available and have kept their top prospects so far.

    If the starters Lester, bucholz, lackey can pitch to their averages that will be a very good improvement then two the 4 and 5 guys an win 10 each that will be 65 to 70 wins much better than last year. The other side is having the RP who is closing does not blow over 20 saves like last year.

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    Ben has the payroll flexibility this year....but if you use that and spend it all (over spend) then you might be right back to where we were.  The FA market was thin, so you would have to over pay for Greinke, and he still comes with the question marks.  

    Yes you could trade for a top pitcher, but at what cost???? In FA you often over pay for past performance, in a trade you could be potentially over paying in prospects for past performance (all things considered)

    The reason why these teams turn out top notch starters is because they got top draft picks and/or they don't trade these players away to "win now" which is what some want to do.

    Yes we could trade away Barnes/Webster/Owens and others and be left with the next John Lackey.....and for all we know a Barnes wins a Cy Young in 4 years.

     

    BC is using his payroll flexibility to overspend at the luxury of not taxing this team with long term contracts.  Make the team competitive now, keep the farm, and be able to make better FA signings in the years to come.  I think his strategy is a long term one and I like it. 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    I am similar to moon in this regard...I am tired of the "ifs."  For several years now I have been saying "if so-and-so can (return to his previous such-and such)."  1) it has not happened at all the way I had hoped.  2) there is no reason to believe that there is anything magical about 2013 to suggest that suddenly it all will work out the way we hope.  3) averages are just that, averages;  as a player progresses, his average adjusts to whatever skill level he is working at.  At some point a player reaches a point where he never gets back to his career average, and only brings that average down.  A rare few do this very late in their career (usually with some chemical enhancement, unfortunately).  But many do it somewhere around 32 - 34.  That's the problem with an older team.  It is foolish to assume or even hope for a return to career norms for guys on the far side of 30.  4) The Sox have been extremely bad at doing what the Rays do so well...judging when a guy has reached his peak and trading him while his price is at its peak, only to watch him regress while taking up space on some other team's 25-man roster.

    Sox make a bad investment, and refuse to ever invest in top talent for fear of repeating their mistakes.  Yet, they have not, in recent memory, actually paid the high price for the top talent.  All they have done over the last decade is sign second tier talent for exhorbitant prices.  Why fear paying top dollar for top talent when you haven't tried it?  Especially when the last time you did try it (Manny signing) it paid off as well as any FA signing ever has!

    Not saying Grienke is worth a CC contract.  But CC was.  Sanchez is at least worth what Lackey got (injury clause included).  Sanchez is the top pitching talent available and he is under 30.  The Sox need top pitching talent for their rotation.  The Sox, unlike last year, have the money (unlike any team save for the Dodgers) to sign top talent.  Where is the confusion? 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    In response to parhunter55's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I am similar to moon in this regard...I am tired of the "ifs."  For several years now I have been saying "if so-and-so can (return to his previous such-and such)."  1) it has not happened at all the way I had hoped.  2) there is no reason to believe that there is anything magical about 2013 to suggest that suddenly it all will work out the way we hope.  3) averages are just that, averages;  as a player progresses, his average adjusts to whatever skill level he is working at.  At some point a player reaches a point where he never gets back to his career average, and only brings that average down.  A rare few do this very late in their career (usually with some chemical enhancement, unfortunately).  But many do it somewhere around 32 - 34.  That's the problem with an older team.  It is foolish to assume or even hope for a return to career norms for guys on the far side of 30.  4) The Sox have been extremely bad at doing what the Rays do so well...judging when a guy has reached his peak and trading him while his price is at its peak, only to watch him regress while taking up space on some other team's 25-man roster.

    Sox make a bad investment, and refuse to ever invest in top talent for fear of repeating their mistakes.  Yet, they have not, in recent memory, actually paid the high price for the top talent.  All they have done over the last decade is sign second tier talent for exhorbitant prices.  Why fear paying top dollar for top talent when you haven't tried it?  Especially when the last time you did try it (Manny signing) it paid off as well as any FA signing ever has!

    Not saying Grienke is worth a CC contract.  But CC was.  Sanchez is at least worth what Lackey got (injury clause included).  Sanchez is the top pitching talent available and he is under 30.  The Sox need top pitching talent for their rotation.  The Sox, unlike last year, have the money (unlike any team save for the Dodgers) to sign top talent.  Where is the confusion? 

    [/QUOTE]

    Sanchez was not going to sign until Greinke did...now the market will develop for him.  The Sox obviously have interest, but if it goes to 6 years/100 plus million, they likely won't see the value there.  Texas, Detroit and the Angels, teams with deep pockets, will all likely be involved, so he may very well get that kind of contract.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wolfpack13. Show Wolfpack13's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    Parhunter I'm not saying you're an idiot, but "Sox have only signed second tier players for the last 10 years" is the dumbest thing I've read since Aliibike's posts. I hate to break this to you but Adrian Gonzalez, Curt Schilling, Johnny Damon, Josh Beckett, Carl Crawford and John Lackey were "top talent."  Some of them didn't certainly didn't play like it once they got here, but at the time they were studs. Sox fans whine we don't spend the money then whine we overpay. We don't make trades to get talent then whine we give away our prospects. Which is it?

    Also, please stop comparing the Sox to the Rays. First of all please remind yourself that the Rays have zero world series to their credit. Zero. Second they finished in last place 9 of their first 10 years. I guarantee you this-- let the Sox finish dead last for 10 years, pile up draft picks and then see how they finish for the next decade after that. Dumbass Sox fans go berserk when they finish last one year nevermind nine.

    Finally I'd like to repeat myself that less than 5% of those who post on this board really know much about the game. One of the reasons I know this is because you are posting on this board rather than coaching a team or looking for a scouting position. I believe in freedom of speech, but someone like Alibike has no knowledge of the game.  Do not think simply because you "watch every game" means you have knowledge of baseball. The funniest part is the dumber the post, the more confident the person is of his thoughts.

     

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    Nice Wolfpack.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from slaaonta71. Show slaaonta71's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    oh the front office said there will be something done  when off season started nothing yet i will give it time but i,m tell  you  i hope they replace atleast 2 starting pitchers  because  4 and 5 will not cut it  sorry  felix doubront is not the awser he is a spot starter long relief that,s it fools gold

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from slaaonta71. Show slaaonta71's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    and  another thing  lester and buc  3 and 4 and clays  even ahead of john lester

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Drewski5. Show Drewski5's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    In response to slaaonta71's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    oh the front office said there will be something done  when off season started nothing yet i will give it time but i,m tell  you  i hope they replace atleast 2 starting pitchers  because  4 and 5 will not cut it  sorry  felix doubront is not the awser he is a spot starter long relief that,s it fools gold

    [/QUOTE]

    Appology accepted.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Iceman4. Show Iceman4's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    if we are a big market team........why are we LETTING other teams set the market?

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    In response to Iceman4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    if we are a big market team........why are we LETTING other teams set the market?

    [/QUOTE]

    So ... we should have been the ones to offer Grienke 6 years/zillion dollars?

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    Because you touch yourself at night. 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Iceman4. Show Iceman4's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Iceman4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    if we are a big market team........why are we LETTING other teams set the market?

    [/QUOTE]

    So ... we should have been the ones to offer Grienke 6 years/zillion dollars?

    [/QUOTE]

    Nope....but there are others that we could sign. I don't like the current FAs this year but pitching was our # 1 problem last year. I would like to see some sort of action there. Now that Grienke is signed....we shall see how it unfolds. Are you satisfied with who they have Spaceman?

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    In response to Wolfpack13's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Parhunter I'm not saying you're an idiot, but "Sox have only signed second tier players for the last 10 years" is the dumbest thing I've read since Aliibike's posts. I hate to break this to you but Adrian Gonzalez, Curt Schilling, Johnny Damon, Josh Beckett, Carl Crawford and John Lackey were "top talent."  Some of them didn't certainly didn't play like it once they got here, but at the time they were studs. Sox fans whine we don't spend the money then whine we overpay. We don't make trades to get talent then whine we give away our prospects. Which is it?

    Also, please stop comparing the Sox to the Rays. First of all please remind yourself that the Rays have zero world series to their credit. Zero. Second they finished in last place 9 of their first 10 years. I guarantee you this-- let the Sox finish dead last for 10 years, pile up draft picks and then see how they finish for the next decade after that. Dumbass Sox fans go berserk when they finish last one year nevermind nine.

    Finally I'd like to repeat myself that less than 5% of those who post on this board really know much about the game. One of the reasons I know this is because you are posting on this board rather than coaching a team or looking for a scouting position. I believe in freedom of speech, but someone like Alibike has no knowledge of the game.  Do not think simply because you "watch every game" means you have knowledge of baseball. The funniest part is the dumber the post, the more confident the person is of his thoughts.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Wolfjack,


    Wonderful.  You didn't call me an idiot.  Just stupid and then dumb, and then...implied I know nothing about baseball because I am not applying for scouting jobs for a MLB team (how do you know?).  And then you offer up Schilling and Beckett and Gonzalez to make the point that the Sox sign top FA talent.  Well, I shall move over, I have room on the idiot bus.  Schilling, Beckett and Gonzalez were all brought to the Sox via trade. 

    And no, Damon and Crawford were NOT and still are NOT top tier talent.  Neither will make the HOF.  Crawford is good.  He is NOT Josh Hamilton.  And he should never have been paid like the best OFer in baseball.  How do I know?  Justin Upton is being paid for 2 years less and for 6 million less per year and is very comparable talent wise.  Crawford is definitely an overpay--way too much money for the level of talent he brings to the table.  He is not, never has been and never will be a five tool player.

    Damon was a great signing.  And he became an even better player after he was signed away from Oakland at a very reasonable price for his talent.  But here is your problem,  Mr. I am so much smarter than all of you here...Damon was signed over 10 years ago.  A decade is 10 years.  And guess what?  He signed one year BEFORE Theo Epstein became the Sox GM.  So guess who signed Damon--the GM of the Orioles!  The same guy who was the last Sox GM to go after the absolute best hitter available with the absolute top dollar offer...an absolutely bold move that is still far and away the best FA signing ever made by the Sox (and I am not one of the big Manny supporters here).

    Lastly, I compared the Sox to the Rays on a thread about the Rays.  On this thread I talked about the need to get the best SP Ben can get.  Why?   Because it is a thread about the Starting Pitching.  And, I managed to state my opinions without attacking any other poster or hurling insults and making stupid assumptions about the knowledge, intelligence or intent of any other posters, even those who disagree with me.  You, on the other hand, can seemingly only state your cleverness by insulting others.  What does that say about your real knowledge of baseball, or the size of your whatever you seem to think needs to be disguised under ill-informed and thoughtless bluster? 

    I am not calling you an idiot, but you are one of the most bombastic, full of yourself jazzholes I have ever had to call out on this forum for completely erroneous statements.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    Oh, and NOW you think Lackey is top tier talent?  Just a post ago you were pointing out how he was the worst signing in Sox history.  Talk about an overhyped opinion.  You make your own point quite well, and I quote:  "the dumber the post, the more confident the person is of his thoughts."

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wolfpack13. Show Wolfpack13's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    Parhunter stick to golf maybe that's a sport you understand...

    1.) I hated the Lackey signing because of the 17 million not because I didn't think he was "top tier." You're into semantics by calling one player "top tier" it's by your standards. I didn't know by top tier you mean HOF. By that standard you are correct the Red Sox haven't signed any Hall of Famers in the last 10 years. Lackey was the best pitcher that off season and the Sox invested in him. That was my point.

    2.) I realize Schilling, Beckett, and Gonzalez came over from trades. However, you didn't specify FA vs trades. Your argument was Sox only sign second tier players and don't invest in top talent.. Question: Did the Red Sox make an investment in Beckett or Gonzalez by giving them new contracts? Now you want to split hairs and say trades don't count. By the way if you trade 3 prospects for another team's stud (Schilling, Gonzo, Beckett, etc.) that's "making an investment." Wasn't Gonzalez's contract over 20 million a year? That's not an investment? You're absurd. Can you put more caveats on your comments?

    3.) Johnny Damon and Carl Crawford aren't top tier players? Okay we have different opinions on Top Tier. Damon is 4th among active players in hits and steals, 3rd in runs scored. Crawford was a top ten basestealer of all-time (before the injuries) and one of the best defensive players in the game. Oh, nope you're right... they aren't Hall of Famers. And great point Damon joined Red Sox in 2001... good catch.

    4.) You wrote Anibal Sanchez is "worth what Lackey got"... does anyone else reading this think Sanchez 48-51 lifetime with about a 3.75 should get 17 million for four years? Someone help me out. You make me laugh you complain the Sox don't sign top tier talent and the next sentence you want them to sign Sanchez. At least be consistent in your stupidity.

    The Sox obviously invested in the wrong players over the last few years. However, with a payroll over 150 million it's a dumb criticism that the Sox haven't invested in talent... regardless of whether or not YOU judge them as top tier. Cherry should call you up "Hey Parhunter before I sign this player is he top tier in your book?" You've just turned into a Yanks fan when nothing is ever good enough.

    What makes me laugh most is you complain when the FO doesn't land the player and then when they do land the player it's always "they overpaid." How often do you see one of these players get underpaid?

     

     
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