Why has nothing been done about the SP?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wolfpack13. Show Wolfpack13's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    I'd like to apologize to everyone else on the board for my super-long posts. I am bombastic.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    In response to Alibiike's comment:

    Last year, it was said that Ben had no flexibility to acquire top notch players. This year, Ben has flexibility, but is still dealing for second rate players.

    He could have done a much better job at 1B than Napoli. Bringing back Youk, or signing LaRoche made much more sense, since he already picked up Ross to catch.

    The Gomes signing was plain ignorant. Giving a platoon player $5M/yr when he's worth 1M, and can't play defense. I'd have rather had Bay back to play LF.

    13M/yr for Victorino who best year netted him 10M, and coming off one of his worst years. if the goal was eventually trade Ells, Bourn would have made more sense, or even Hamilton (although he brings a lot of baggage IMO).

    And what about D. Ross? 3.1M for a 35 y/o backup C, who made 2.525M his best year? Not a good deal.




    I am probably not alone in thinking that if the Sox had signed LaRoche or Youkilis, you would be complaining they should have gone for the younger and better Napoli instead. Book it.

     

    Gomes was definitely overpaid, although he really only makes $1.5mill more than last year’s platoon player Cody Ross was signed for. Much like Victorino, which you clear to have completely misread as to why it happened, Gomes was signed because he would agree to fewer years. Ross wanted three. Gomes settled for two. Two is less than three. The plan is short term options. You might not like it, but that is not a requirement of the plan.  I know, that rotten ol' Ben C. refuses to take your advice.  But believe it or not, other possibilities actually do exist.  Just because they are different does not mean they are bad.

     

    Victorino was certainly not my top choice, but this appeared to be more about the years than any plans to switch him to CF and deal Ellsbury. Victorino, unlike Ross, looked like a better option for 3 years, and had the Sox signed Ross, you undoubtedly would be whining that the Sox could have had Victorino for 3 years for few million more. Like Victorino or not, he is a superior player to Ross. I thought Swisher was the smarter choice. Swisher also was unlikely to sign a 3 year deal.

     

    As for David Ross, again probably a slight overpay if he resumes his role as a normal backup catcher. However, he was reportedly signed to play more often than a normal backup. (Also, he is reportedly a really good guy to have on the team and is potential future MLB manager material.) If Ross does play 70-80 games, that makes Saltalamacchia expendable and creates potential opening at 1B on days Ross does not play, with Napoli catching half the time and playing 1B half the time. Try and get that kind of versatility out of Youkilis.

     

    Really ,the Sox need 3 more pieces, though all are not major. An upgrade in the LHH LF over Nava, assuming it is not simply Kalish. A part time 1B. and of course a SP. Doubtful they trade for a SP, as the best available is probably Capuano. So maybe signing one of Sanchez, Marcum or Liriano. Sanchez is head and shoulders the best, but also the most costly in terms of years. Liriano is a much better option than Marcum, as he strikes out more hitters and induces many more ground balls. He also might be amenable to a short term pillow contract, although pitchers seeking those deals usually go to the NL. (See Haren, Dan.) It is also possible they view one of Morales, Tazawa or Aceves as an acceptable starter option for the short term, effectively holding a roster spot for De La Rosa or Webster. (See, maybe they already have that other SP.)

     

    If they sign a pitcher or simply go with what they have, they can easily fill the other 2 needs by dealing  maybe one of Saltalamacchia/Lavarnway, or Kalish and one or two bullpen arms from the MLB roster.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    In response to parhunter55's comment:

    I am similar to moon in this regard...I am tired of the "ifs."  For several years now I have been saying "if so-and-so can (return to his previous such-and such)."  1) it has not happened at all the way I had hoped.  2) there is no reason to believe that there is anything magical about 2013 to suggest that suddenly it all will work out the way we hope.  3) averages are just that, averages;  as a player progresses, his average adjusts to whatever skill level he is working at.  At some point a player reaches a point where he never gets back to his career average, and only brings that average down.  A rare few do this very late in their career (usually with some chemical enhancement, unfortunately).  But many do it somewhere around 32 - 34.  That's the problem with an older team.  It is foolish to assume or even hope for a return to career norms for guys on the far side of 30.  4) The Sox have been extremely bad at doing what the Rays do so well...judging when a guy has reached his peak and trading him while his price is at its peak, only to watch him regress while taking up space on some other team's 25-man roster.

    Sox make a bad investment, and refuse to ever invest in top talent for fear of repeating their mistakes.  Yet, they have not, in recent memory, actually paid the high price for the top talent.  All they have done over the last decade is sign second tier talent for exhorbitant prices.  Why fear paying top dollar for top talent when you haven't tried it?  Especially when the last time you did try it (Manny signing) it paid off as well as any FA signing ever has!

    Not saying Grienke is worth a CC contract.  But CC was.  Sanchez is at least worth what Lackey got (injury clause included).  Sanchez is the top pitching talent available and he is under 30.  The Sox need top pitching talent for their rotation.  The Sox, unlike last year, have the money (unlike any team save for the Dodgers) to sign top talent.  Where is the confusion? 




    Everyone wants to be the Rays, but no one wants the 10 years of last place it took to get there. Part of the reason the Rays are more agile when it comes to moving out their pieces is that they have to be, and another part is, as they are all homegrown products, none have difficult deals to move. Name one big name FA signed by Tampa since Chuck LaMar was the GM. You cannot.

    Re Lack and Sanchez.

    From ages 26 through 28, John Lackey was 46-25 with a 3.33ERA (133ERA+), 1.27WHIP, 2.91K/BB.

    Since then, Lackey is 49-36, 4.56ERA (96ERA+), 1.35WHIP, 2.48K/BB.

    In Lackey’s 3 years prior to free agency he was 42-22, 3.48ERA (128ERA+), 1.24WHIP, 3.22K/BB

    From ages 26 through 28 (the last 3 years), Anibal Sanchez was 30-34, 3.70ERA (109ERA+), 1.30WHIP, 2.89K/BB

    So first of all, Sanchez is not as good as Lackey was at the same age or for that matter prior to free agency. Especially when on considers Lackey’s entire career has been spent facing DHs, which is why the difference in ERA+ is far, far more important than the miniscule difference of 0.22 in ERA. Sanchez’ main advantage is that he is younger and not about to have TJ, as far as anyone knows. But if Sanchez posts a 96ERA+ over the next 4 years, will he really have been worth Lackey money?

    To be fair, a big part of Lackey’s decline was probably related to his injuries, and most of his decline was in Boston and not in Anaheim. However, Sanchez is certainly not immune to injury.

    I do think the Sox can afford to roll the dice on Sanchez, but I can see why they would be hesitant. Signing someone for long years at millions upon millions per year just because they are “best available” is the strategy the Sox used to become a last place team, and not the smartest idea going forward.

    If you want the organization to operate more like Tampa, then you are going to have to learn to live with minimal involvement in free agency. Free agency typically involved paying exorbitant rates for older players and can cost higher profile draft picks. Drafting is a numbers game. Pick early and pick often. It is not 100% scouting and development, like someone reading these boards would think if they grew up on another planet.  Sure Tampa did a great job with players like Price and Longoria, but not so much with players like Dewon Brazelton and Wade Townsend …

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Schumpeters-Ghost. Show Schumpeters-Ghost's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    In response to notin's comment:

    Everyone wants to be the Rays, but no one wants the 10 years of last place it took to get there.




    Are you sure than Cherrington isn't angling for last place?

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    I realize Schilling, Beckett, and Gonzalez came over from trades.

    Really?  I believe NOW you do after I schooled you on it.  But you gave no indication of that in your holier-than-thou, I know more than you rant!

    However, you didn't specify FA vs trades

    Yes.  I did.  That was my whole point.  My whole post was about the Sox current, misguided, philosophy on signing second tier talent for near top tier prices, while refusing to get into bidding wars for the top talent.  And that this philsosphy has led to a series of bad contracts.  Of which, Carl Crawford is the prime example.  Yet, when the Sox did outbid everyone for the top hitting talent in the FA pool, it led to the best FA signing in their history. 

    Perhaps YOU should stick to being a cub scout.  Apparently reading and comprehension are not your thing.  BTW, get to bed.  It is past your bedtime.

    But thanks for trying to be the thought police around here, telling anyone you disagree with (or fail to comprehend) that they do not belong on this site and have no rights to express their views.  You do such a great service to an otherwise declining board full of name callers and vitriol/hyperbole.  You have brought such civility and distinguished rhetoric back to a dying board.  You will save it single-handedly.  Next Christmas we should all celebrate your birth.

    Read my posts.  I have consistently said that starting pitching is the #1 need.  That FA is the way to go in that regard.  That the Sox will have to overpay, since that is the market for FA SP as well as when trading for SP.  And that Napoli should not have been their #1 target for 1b.  Victorino?  Well, that just caught me by surprise.  Tried to like the deal but am having an extremely hard time trying to justify it.  As do most posters here, and most experts in the blogosphere, had you been reading any of them.

    And no.  Difference of opinion or not, the fact is Damon was not a top tier talent when Dan Duquette signed him.  He was a good ballplayer with a decent bat, good speed, short on power, covered a lot of ground but had no arm.  Hence, he was signed for 8 million per.  Nothing near the 20 million per that Manny Ramirez, who was a top tier talent, got just couple of years earlier.  And I have long believed and have stated so on this very board years before you graced us with your unnecessary presence that I suspect Damon is one of the Sox whose performance rose to a new level with the help of chemical enhancement.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    In response to Wolfpack13's comment:

    Parhunter I'm not saying you're an idiot, but "Sox have only signed second tier players for the last 10 years" is the dumbest thing I've read since Aliibike's posts. I hate to break this to you but Adrian Gonzalez, Curt Schilling, Johnny Damon, Josh Beckett, Carl Crawford and John Lackey were "top talent."  Some of them didn't certainly didn't play like it once they got here, but at the time they were studs. Sox fans whine we don't spend the money then whine we overpay. We don't make trades to get talent then whine we give away our prospects. Which is it?

    Also, please stop comparing the Sox to the Rays. First of all please remind yourself that the Rays have zero world series to their credit. Zero. Second they finished in last place 9 of their first 10 years. I guarantee you this-- let the Sox finish dead last for 10 years, pile up draft picks and then see how they finish for the next decade after that. Dumbass Sox fans go berserk when they finish last one year nevermind nine.

    Finally I'd like to repeat myself that less than 5% of those who post on this board really know much about the game. One of the reasons I know this is because you are posting on this board rather than coaching a team or looking for a scouting position. I believe in freedom of speech, but someone like Alibike has no knowledge of the game.  Do not think simply because you "watch every game" means you have knowledge of baseball. The funniest part is the dumber the post, the more confident the person is of his thoughts.

     

     



    Why don't you offer some insight to the game, instead of bashing other posters? The reason is you can't, because that is the only thing you know how to do. You have less than 300 posts in 4 years, yet you think you are all-knowing? You are inconsequential.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    In response to parhunter55's comment:

    In response to Wolfpack13's comment:

    Parhunter I'm not saying you're an idiot, but "Sox have only signed second tier players for the last 10 years" is the dumbest thing I've read since Aliibike's posts. I hate to break this to you but Adrian Gonzalez, Curt Schilling, Johnny Damon, Josh Beckett, Carl Crawford and John Lackey were "top talent."  Some of them didn't certainly didn't play like it once they got here, but at the time they were studs. Sox fans whine we don't spend the money then whine we overpay. We don't make trades to get talent then whine we give away our prospects. Which is it?

    Also, please stop comparing the Sox to the Rays. First of all please remind yourself that the Rays have zero world series to their credit. Zero. Second they finished in last place 9 of their first 10 years. I guarantee you this-- let the Sox finish dead last for 10 years, pile up draft picks and then see how they finish for the next decade after that. Dumbass Sox fans go berserk when they finish last one year nevermind nine.

    Finally I'd like to repeat myself that less than 5% of those who post on this board really know much about the game. One of the reasons I know this is because you are posting on this board rather than coaching a team or looking for a scouting position. I believe in freedom of speech, but someone like Alibike has no knowledge of the game.  Do not think simply because you "watch every game" means you have knowledge of baseball. The funniest part is the dumber the post, the more confident the person is of his thoughts.

     

     



    Wolfjack,


    Wonderful.  You didn't call me an idiot.  Just stupid and then dumb, and then...implied I know nothing about baseball because I am not applying for scouting jobs for a MLB team (how do you know?).  And then you offer up Schilling and Beckett and Gonzalez to make the point that the Sox sign top FA talent.  Well, I shall move over, I have room on the idiot bus.  Schilling, Beckett and Gonzalez were all brought to the Sox via trade. 

    And no, Damon and Crawford were NOT and still are NOT top tier talent.  Neither will make the HOF.  Crawford is good.  He is NOT Josh Hamilton.  And he should never have been paid like the best OFer in baseball.  How do I know?  Justin Upton is being paid for 2 years less and for 6 million less per year and is very comparable talent wise.  Crawford is definitely an overpay--way too much money for the level of talent he brings to the table.  He is not, never has been and never will be a five tool player.

    Damon was a great signing.  And he became an even better player after he was signed away from Oakland at a very reasonable price for his talent.  But here is your problem,  Mr. I am so much smarter than all of you here...Damon was signed over 10 years ago.  A decade is 10 years.  And guess what?  He signed one year BEFORE Theo Epstein became the Sox GM.  So guess who signed Damon--the GM of the Orioles!  The same guy who was the last Sox GM to go after the absolute best hitter available with the absolute top dollar offer...an absolutely bold move that is still far and away the best FA signing ever made by the Sox (and I am not one of the big Manny supporters here).

    Lastly, I compared the Sox to the Rays on a thread about the Rays.  On this thread I talked about the need to get the best SP Ben can get.  Why?   Because it is a thread about the Starting Pitching.  And, I managed to state my opinions without attacking any other poster or hurling insults and making stupid assumptions about the knowledge, intelligence or intent of any other posters, even those who disagree with me.  You, on the other hand, can seemingly only state your cleverness by insulting others.  What does that say about your real knowledge of baseball, or the size of your whatever you seem to think needs to be disguised under ill-informed and thoughtless bluster? 

    I am not calling you an idiot, but you are one of the most bombastic, full of yourself jazzholes I have ever had to call out on this forum for completely erroneous statements.



    Touche' Parhunter!

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    This team has coninually relied on the hope that all our starters will have career average or better seasons at the same time. It just never seems to happen that way with this team. Injuries, pitchers like Beckett with their odd/even year proclivities, and changing pitching coaches hasn't helped.

    Here are the pitchers we have signed or traded for and started over the past few years:

    2012: 

    Cook- 18

    Morales-9 (traded for in 2011)

    Stewart-2

     

    2011: 

    A Miller 12

    E Bedard 8

     

    2010:

    Lackey  33

     

    2009:

    Penny  24

    Smoltz  8

    Byrd  6 (was here the first time in 2008)

     

    2008:

    Colon  7

    Byrd  8

     

    2007:

    Dice-K 32

    Schilling 24 (was here in 2006)

    Tavarez  23 (was here in 2006)

     

    2006:

    Beckett

    Clement

    Snyder

    D Wells

    DiNardo

    J Johnson

    Jarvis

     

    Since Dice-K in 2007, only Lackey was a serious attempt to upgrade our rotation from outside the system.

     

     


    The Lackey attempt was legitimate, but just didn't work out right. Perhaps, that signing scared top management, but the fact remains: since the Dice-K signing in 2007, we have gone 5 seasons with just one bold move (Lackey). Our pitching has got worse and worse, but nothing has changed.

    Starter ERA/WHIP:

    2007: 4.21/1.300

    2008: 4.02/1.313

    2009: 4.63/1.412

    2010: 4.17/1.348

    2011: 4.49/1.367

    2012  5.19/1.417

    (Except for the 2009 blip, our WHIP has gotten worse every year since 2007, and our ERA had gotten a half a run worse each of the last 2 years.)

     

    Trying to change the rotation by obtaining better #5 type starters than what we had the year before will never work out, and we've actually failed at even improving our #5 often than not as well.

     

    It's not "all about pitching", but you can't finish in last place, have a starter ERA over 5.00, do nothing about fixing the rotation other than have Lackey return and expect to be highly competitive the next year. It's a fantasy.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Wolfpack13. Show Wolfpack13's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    Parhunter... Alibiike agreed with you. Do you need more proof you're wrong? Oh by the way, if you don't think you're wrong check out NOTIN's post how he destroyed your "Red Sox don't sign top tier talent... let's go get SANCHEZ." You and Alibiike may be right I may not know much, but I know one thing that was stupid.

    The reason I am incosequential is because my posts, while infrequent, are correct. Alibiike the last thread you posted on the next 30 posts were about you and your stupid posts. People were actually asking if you had a recent head injury. If you don't like me bashing posters then start making sense. I don't always agree with Moonslav JimFromFlorida Notin or AndrewMitch, but they make good points so I don't bash them.

    You and Parhunter should watch the Sox games together.

    Parhunter: "The Red Sox never sign top talent."  Alibiike: "OMG, I was going to say the same thing. Ben Cherrington is the worst, so is Theo Epstein, so is Terry Francona, so is Bobby Valentine." Parhunter: "All the Sox do is overpay players." Alibiike: "Parhunter, it's like we are sharing the same tiny brain."

     
  10. This post has been removed.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    In response to louisthelipp's comment:

    AlibiIke starts more stupid threads than anyone else. He has admitted that he is a Dodger fan and just comes here for kicks. Why debate him as if you take him seriously? Waste of your time. Ike is also Bill-806 and Harv53.




    pike

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: Why has nothing been done about the SP?

    Boy scout up past his bedtime again.  His posts are "inconsequential" because he is always right but only posts occasionaly.  Huh?!?

    BTW, does anyone know what happened to the ignore button?

    Anyone watching the 12-12-12 concert for Sandy victims (of which I am one)?  I am going to have to DVR the rest of it.  My son and I wanted to see Paul McCartney.  I enjoyed the WHO, though Daltrey should never have bared his chest and belly.  But Kanye is just annoying me.  Must be related to a certain boyscout.  I am past MY bedtime.  Good night, all.

     

     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share