Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I think manager influence is greatly exaggerated.  During the halcyon Francona years there was a certain poster that insisted every season that Francona had cost the Sox "at least 15 wins".  As if they should have won 110+ games every season!

    It's absolutely not solely Valentine's fault that the Sox have stumbled so badly this season.  But he has comprehensively failed at his job and has shown no reason for optimism.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    The poster's name was "Tchandra" I believe. He gave specific instances where Francona failed. He contended that it was 15 games that year and it was still early in August. Based on his history, there was every reason to believe that he would have cost them 20+ games that year. Tchandra illustrated games situations where Francona failed weekly at a minimum.

    110 wins was within reach of the team a couple of years during Francona's reign and 100+ was also attainable most of the years with a competent manager. There is no doubt that, with the talent they had, the team underperformed under Francona. What should have been a glorious 8 year stretch, turned into 1 WS appearance in the last 7 years and failure to even qualify for the playoff the last 2 years. The 2004 team could have won with just about any of the posters here as manager. Remember baseball "experts" never voted him any higher than 4th in Manager of The Year voting.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to BOSOX1941's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I think manager influence is greatly exaggerated.  During the halcyon Francona years there was a certain poster that insisted every season that Francona had cost the Sox "at least 15 wins".  As if they should have won 110+ games every season!

    It's absolutely not solely Valentine's fault that the Sox have stumbled so badly this season.  But he has comprehensively failed at his job and has shown no reason for optimism.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    The poster's name was "Tchandra" I believe. He gave specific instances where Francona failed. He contended that it was 15 games that year and it was still early in August. Based on his history, there was every reason to believe that he would have cost them 20+ games that year. Tchandra illustrated games situations where Francona failed weekly at a minimum.

    110 wins was within reach of the team a couple of years during Francona's reign and 100+ was also attainable most of the years with a competent manager. There is no doubt that, with the talent they had, the team underperformed under Francona. What should have been a glorious 8 year stretch, turned into 1 WS appearance in the last 7 years and failure to even qualify for the playoff the last 2 years. The 2004 team could have won with just about any of the posters here as manager. Remember baseball "experts" never voted him any higher than 4th in Manager of The Year voting.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Exactly; I am surprised you remember that name. I do. But I have been posting at Sawxheads for a long time, even though Wally the Braindead claims I have been banned over there. What was remarkable about TChandra's brilliant analysis is that it was so clearly documented-the exact situation, the decision Francona made, the alternatives available to him at the time, and the resultant effect of the poor decision. No one was ever able to categorically disprove a single claim he made, though some disagreed with him. If even HALF the games TChandra claims were the responsibility  of the manager, what does that say about Francona's ability. He was a very mediocre manager; good in the clubhouse for most of his reign, but a horrible tactician.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to wallyisdead's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I think manager influence is greatly exaggerated.  During the halcyon Francona years there was a certain poster that insisted every season that Francona had cost the Sox "at least 15 wins".  As if they should have won 110+ games every season!

    It's absolutely not solely Valentine's fault that the Sox have stumbled so badly this season.  But he has comprehensively failed at his job and has shown no reason for optimism.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I agree. I would place "the Valentine effect" at no more than 3-5%. He might have cost the team a couple of games this year because of faulty tactics, but no more than 2-3 losses were mostly his fault. It would be interesting to see what people here assign percentage-wise as the reason for our debacle this year. There are lots of reasons to include in the voting besides the manager: the pitching, the injuries, Cherington, Lucchino, Henry...they all had a role in this. I don't think you can blame the offense too much, though its been inconsistent: its now 4th in the AL in runs scored. With a similar ranking for pitching we would be right in the thick of things.

     

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    Where is that Choke in 2007 thread you started?

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Keep talking to The Hand.

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    I don't believe I have seen any posts here from you that explicitly said that most of the results from this year not the fault of the manager, but of the players.

    Is your boss responsible for the quality of your work, or is that on you?

     

    You're confusing effort with production.  But let's take a look a few different scenarios.

    I had a boss that would deliberately pick fights with another political faction of the company.  Fights he couldn't win.  Me and most of the crew couldn't do our work because we didn't want to choose sides.

    Had a boss that would call meetings to discuss things that had no importance.

    Had a boss that was so inept that people would gather around and laugh at his decisions.

    What do you think a boss is for?  I've had bosses that were brilliant.  I had a boss that you would lay down in traffic for.

    I've also had bosses that I've spent half my time cleaning up after.  A boss that literally sucked dry all motivation from everyone in the company.  Beleive it or not, people like to be part of a team.  Even on bad teams, people like to have some level of optimism.  

    I was a FB team that was going downhill.  Everyone knew it, and I don't think they were happy about it, but the legs don't last.  But that didn't stop us from palying hard every week.  But what eventually killed the team was the whiners that sucked the joy out of playing.  That's what Valentine did.  As bad as he was at tactics, that's probably not more than a few games.  It was the demotivation and the constant level of drama and distractions that really killed the season.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    What was remarkable about TChandra's brilliant analysis is that it was so clearly documented-the exact situation,

    Game #1 he wanted us to play for a tie on the road.  No one in the history of BB ever recommends that.

    Game #2 was a hit and run.  The batter scorched the ball, but right at the 3B for an easy DP.

    I think 7 of the 15 involved bunting anytime and any place.

    Tchandra knew nothing about BB.

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from charliedarling. Show charliedarling's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    Joebreidey's comments are right on!  Valentine lost this season before he even made an in-game tactical mistake.

    All managers make second guessable tactical decisions.  In the end, probably no one makes many more or less than the other guys because all such decisions are well meant, but do not all turn out to be productive (for various reasons).

    But, influencing your team so negatively from the beginning of the year right through to the end is what right now is making the Orioles (as an example) so much better of a team right now than the Red Sox.  They are close to first in the AL East and seeminly have a playoff spot because of their manager and how he handles himself and his players.  You notice one thing about Showalter and that is that he never makes himself the star of the show.

    Yes, the Orioles have a few good players (Jones, Markaikis, Johnson, etc) but they ahve lots of journey man type players as well.  They have not had the same level of injuries that the Sox have had, but talent for talent I would be hard pressed to think that they are soooo "much" better than the Red Sox.

    If i owned the Red Sox, I am not sure that I would trade all of our players for all of the Orioles players, but I certainly would trade managers with them.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I don't believe I have seen any posts here from you that explicitly said that most of the results from this year not the fault of the manager, but of the players.

    Is your boss responsible for the quality of your work, or is that on you?

     

    You're confusing effort with production.  But let's take a look a few different scenarios.

    I had a boss that would deliberately pick fights with another political faction of the company.  Fights he couldn't win.  Me and most of the crew couldn't do our work because we didn't want to choose sides.

    Had a boss that would call meetings to discuss things that had no importance.

    Had a boss that was so inept that people would gather around and laugh at his decisions.

    What do you think a boss is for?  I've had bosses that were brilliant.  I had a boss that you would lay down in traffic for.

    I've also had bosses that I've spent half my time cleaning up after.  A boss that literally sucked dry all motivation from everyone in the company.  Beleive it or not, people like to be part of a team.  Even on bad teams, people like to have some level of optimism.  

    I was a FB team that was going downhill.  Everyone knew it, and I don't think they were happy about it, but the legs don't last.  But that didn't stop us from palying hard every week.  But what eventually killed the team was the whiners that sucked the joy out of playing.  That's what Valentine did.  As bad as he was at tactics, that's probably not more than a few games.  It was the demotivation and the constant level of drama and distractions that really killed the season.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    This presumes that you have some sort of inside knowledge about the content of Sox team staff meetings and politics; you don't. In the end, every one of us is responsible for the job we do...at anything. Sometimes there are obstacles; sometimes its easier. This season is on the players, mostly.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    This season is on the players, mostly.

     

    Yep.  and Valentine is a horrible manager.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to charliedarling's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Joebreidey's comments are right on!  Valentine lost this season before he even made an in-game tactical mistake.

    All managers make second guessable tactical decisions.  In the end, probably no one makes many more or less than the other guys because all such decisions are well meant, but do not all turn out to be productive (for various reasons).

    But, influencing your team so negatively from the beginning of the year right through to the end is what right now is making the Orioles (as an example) so much better of a team right now than the Red Sox.  They are close to first in the AL East and seeminly have a playoff spot because of their manager and how he handles himself and his players.  You notice one thing about Showalter and that is that he never makes himself the star of the show.

    Yes, the Orioles have a few good players (Jones, Markaikis, Johnson, etc) but they ahve lots of journey man type players as well.  They have not had the same level of injuries that the Sox have had, but talent for talent I would be hard pressed to think that they are soooo "much" better than the Red Sox.

    If i owned the Red Sox, I am not sure that I would trade all of our players for all of the Orioles players, but I certainly would trade managers with them.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    So the players have no fault at all according to you? No responsibility or accountability for doing their job. Sorry. You are wrong.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    What was remarkable about TChandra's brilliant analysis is that it was so clearly documented-the exact situation,

    Game #1 he wanted us to play for a tie on the road.  No one in the history of BB ever recommends that.

    Game #2 was a hit and run.  The batter scorched the ball, but right at the 3B for an easy DP.

    I think 7 of the 15 involved bunting anytime and any place.

    Tchandra knew nothing about BB.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I doubt you remember many of the details either. What I remember is how thorough the analysis was. Many of us thought it was a brilliant post. A majority of those at Sawxheads as I recall agreed with nearly every example he gave us.

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    This presumes that you have some sort of inside knowledge about the content of Sox team staff meetings and politics; you don't. In the end, every one of us is responsible for the job we do...at anything. Sometimes there are obstacles; sometimes its easier. This season is on the players, mostly.

    All I know is what I read in every single newspaper, and every single blog.

    No doubt that the players underperformed, but when every player underperforms, you have to stop believing in randomness and coincidence.

    But let's follow your train of thought for a minute.  Players are responsible for themselves.  Are you saying that 20+ players suddenly quit, decided that they'd mail it in, all on their own account, all at the same time?

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    I doubt you remember many of the details either. What I remember is how thorough the analysis was. Many of us thought it was a brilliant post. A majority of those at Sawxheads as I recall agreed with nearly every example he gave us.

    4/17/2007

    Down 2-1 at Toronto,  Drew on 1st, 0 outs, Lugo up.

    Tchandra wanted Lugo to bunt to play for a tie on the road.  On a 3-2 count, Tito sent the runner.  Lugo lined into a DP.  There isn't any doubt that Tito's play is the norm for managers.

    The fact that you and the Sawxheads don't understand that doesn't mean anything.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to charliedarling's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    Joebreidey's comments are right on!  Valentine lost this season before he even made an in-game tactical mistake.

    All managers make second guessable tactical decisions.  In the end, probably no one makes many more or less than the other guys because all such decisions are well meant, but do not all turn out to be productive (for various reasons).

    But, influencing your team so negatively from the beginning of the year right through to the end is what right now is making the Orioles (as an example) so much better of a team right now than the Red Sox.  They are close to first in the AL East and seeminly have a playoff spot because of their manager and how he handles himself and his players.  You notice one thing about Showalter and that is that he never makes himself the star of the show.

    Yes, the Orioles have a few good players (Jones, Markaikis, Johnson, etc) but they ahve lots of journey man type players as well.  They have not had the same level of injuries that the Sox have had, but talent for talent I would be hard pressed to think that they are soooo "much" better than the Red Sox.

    If i owned the Red Sox, I am not sure that I would trade all of our players for all of the Orioles players, but I certainly would trade managers with them.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Spot on.  I don't like Showalter at all, and i mean, I really don't like him, but the difference between him and BV is night and day.

     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    What was remarkable about TChandra's brilliant analysis is that it was so clearly documented-the exact situation,

    Game #1 he wanted us to play for a tie on the road.  No one in the history of BB ever recommends that.

    Game #2 was a hit and run.  The batter scorched the ball, but right at the 3B for an easy DP.

    I think 7 of the 15 involved bunting anytime and any place.

    Tchandra knew nothing about BB.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I doubt you remember many of the details either. What I remember is how thorough the analysis was. Many of us thought it was a brilliant post. A majority of those at Sawxheads as I recall agreed with nearly every example he gave us.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I vividly remember that 2007 season since it was my favorite Red Sox year, but I too almost came unglued over some of the boneheaded moves FrancoMa made that season that turned a runaway into a nail biting finish.  Tchandra even got on me once because he said I under computed just how many games that miserable field manager cost us.  Tchan had actually counted 15 by August; I had only nine.  However, by the end of that season I had FrancoMa up to 14---that's right, 14.  To me that team was capable of winning 110 games but was cut off at the pass by the former Red Sox manager.  The great was great in the clubhouse, handled the players well; in fact, too well because he almost created a nursery in the dugout.  He handled the press brilliantly and kept the pressure off the players.  Those things cannot be denied and should be in Tito's favor.

    HOWEVER, HE WAS A MISERABLE FIELD MANAGER who not only cost us games during our two WS Title years, but cost us division titles in 2005, 2008, 2009, and played a big role in being leaderless in last season's collapse.  I also predict that if he get another managing job the same dull unimaginative station-to-station baseball that so predictable will once again be his undoing.  Neither at Philadelphia or Boston was he known for moving the runners, hit and running, bunting, squeezing or emphazising taking the extra base., and it also seemed like our team led the league in hitting into rally killing double plays.  In fact, I think if six of the eight years he managed with his palsied hands in Boston we led the league in that dubious category. And BTW, it cost us the 2008 AL Title when Rays manager Joe Maddon completely ran circles around the befuddled Tito.

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    Day 5 of the Bobby V deathwatch.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    This presumes that you have some sort of inside knowledge about the content of Sox team staff meetings and politics; you don't. In the end, every one of us is responsible for the job we do...at anything. Sometimes there are obstacles; sometimes its easier. This season is on the players, mostly.

    All I know is what I read in every single newspaper, and every single blog.

    No doubt that the players underperformed, but when every player underperforms, you have to stop believing in randomness and coincidence.

    But let's follow your train of thought for a minute.  Players are responsible for themselves.  Are you saying that 20+ players suddenly quit, decided that they'd mail it in, all on their own account, all at the same time?

     

    [/QUOTE]


    If you get your clubhouse information from the papers and you believe it then you know nothing at all. We are not owed the truth about what goes in inside the clubhouse. Until someone reliable gives us a first hand report you should know better than to believe what you read in the papers.

    I never said the players mailed it in, but you are getting closer to the truth. We are now discussing the players' role in this at least, and not placing the blame mostly on Valentine. I said that the players ARE NOT AS TALENTED as some here think. That is why they performed the way they did this year. In particular, our pitching staff simply wasn't very good at all. I am making the assumption that they are all professionals and gave their best effort, accepting personal responsibility for the jobs they did (as everyone should), but their best job was poor due to lack of talent. That is what you fail to comprehend: the pitchers simply are not very good.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    i get why most want him gone.  he has a knack for leaving a bad taste in your mouth.

    but i would like to see him get another chance.  let him pick his own staff and see what he can do.  next year looks like a sub .500 year anyways, so let's see what he can do with his own people.  maybe that makes a difference?  by all accounts his baseball IQ is off the charts. 

    there have been a couple of puzzling head-scratching moves but mostly i think his in-game managing has been pretty good.  just my opinion....

     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I doubt you remember many of the details either. What I remember is how thorough the analysis was. Many of us thought it was a brilliant post. A majority of those at Sawxheads as I recall agreed with nearly every example he gave us.

    4/17/2007

    Down 2-1 at Toronto,  Drew on 1st, 0 outs, Lugo up.

    Tchandra wanted Lugo to bunt to play for a tie on the road.  On a 3-2 count, Tito sent the runner.  Lugo lined into a DP.  There isn't any doubt that Tito's play is the norm for managers.

    The fact that you and the Sawxheads don't understand that doesn't mean anything.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Do you recall the rest of that brilliant analytical post? I admit that I don't. If you can dig it up, great. What I do remember is that for the vast majority of the instances cited by TChandra, he was spot on. I am glad Tito is gone; I am glad Epstein is gone. And I will be glad when Cheringon, Lucchino, and Valentine are all gone so we can start rebuilding effectively.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    If you see how Valentine talked about Doubront yesterday , you will get an idea of why he has not been fired already.  I am pretty sure he will be let go after the season , but he has done a much better job under difficult circumstances than many on here will give him credit for.  It is funny how some fans will defend even the most miscreant of players , but will be quick to call for the manager's head.  The same thing happened with Francona , and will happen to whoever is next. 

     

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