Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to charliedarling's comment:

     

    Joebreidey's comments are right on!  Valentine lost this season before he even made an in-game tactical mistake.

    All managers make second guessable tactical decisions.  In the end, probably no one makes many more or less than the other guys because all such decisions are well meant, but do not all turn out to be productive (for various reasons).

    But, influencing your team so negatively from the beginning of the year right through to the end is what right now is making the Orioles (as an example) so much better of a team right now than the Red Sox.  They are close to first in the AL East and seeminly have a playoff spot because of their manager and how he handles himself and his players.  You notice one thing about Showalter and that is that he never makes himself the star of the show.

    Yes, the Orioles have a few good players (Jones, Markaikis, Johnson, etc) but they ahve lots of journey man type players as well.  They have not had the same level of injuries that the Sox have had, but talent for talent I would be hard pressed to think that they are soooo "much" better than the Red Sox.

    If i owned the Red Sox, I am not sure that I would trade all of our players for all of the Orioles players, but I certainly would trade managers with them.

     



    Spot on.  I don't like Showalter at all, and i mean, I really don't like him, but the difference between him and BV is night and day.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    What was remarkable about TChandra's brilliant analysis is that it was so clearly documented-the exact situation,

    Game #1 he wanted us to play for a tie on the road.  No one in the history of BB ever recommends that.

    Game #2 was a hit and run.  The batter scorched the ball, but right at the 3B for an easy DP.

    I think 7 of the 15 involved bunting anytime and any place.

    Tchandra knew nothing about BB.

     



    I doubt you remember many of the details either. What I remember is how thorough the analysis was. Many of us thought it was a brilliant post. A majority of those at Sawxheads as I recall agreed with nearly every example he gave us.

     




    I vividly remember that 2007 season since it was my favorite Red Sox year, but I too almost came unglued over some of the boneheaded moves FrancoMa made that season that turned a runaway into a nail biting finish.  Tchandra even got on me once because he said I under computed just how many games that miserable field manager cost us.  Tchan had actually counted 15 by August; I had only nine.  However, by the end of that season I had FrancoMa up to 14---that's right, 14.  To me that team was capable of winning 110 games but was cut off at the pass by the former Red Sox manager.  The great was great in the clubhouse, handled the players well; in fact, too well because he almost created a nursery in the dugout.  He handled the press brilliantly and kept the pressure off the players.  Those things cannot be denied and should be in Tito's favor.

    HOWEVER, HE WAS A MISERABLE FIELD MANAGER who not only cost us games during our two WS Title years, but cost us division titles in 2005, 2008, 2009, and played a big role in being leaderless in last season's collapse.  I also predict that if he get another managing job the same dull unimaginative station-to-station baseball that so predictable will once again be his undoing.  Neither at Philadelphia or Boston was he known for moving the runners, hit and running, bunting, squeezing or emphazising taking the extra base., and it also seemed like our team led the league in hitting into rally killing double plays.  In fact, I think if six of the eight years he managed with his palsied hands in Boston we led the league in that dubious category. And BTW, it cost us the 2008 AL Title when Rays manager Joe Maddon completely ran circles around the befuddled Tito.

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    Day 5 of the Bobby V deathwatch.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    This presumes that you have some sort of inside knowledge about the content of Sox team staff meetings and politics; you don't. In the end, every one of us is responsible for the job we do...at anything. Sometimes there are obstacles; sometimes its easier. This season is on the players, mostly.

    All I know is what I read in every single newspaper, and every single blog.

    No doubt that the players underperformed, but when every player underperforms, you have to stop believing in randomness and coincidence.

    But let's follow your train of thought for a minute.  Players are responsible for themselves.  Are you saying that 20+ players suddenly quit, decided that they'd mail it in, all on their own account, all at the same time?

     




    If you get your clubhouse information from the papers and you believe it then you know nothing at all. We are not owed the truth about what goes in inside the clubhouse. Until someone reliable gives us a first hand report you should know better than to believe what you read in the papers.

    I never said the players mailed it in, but you are getting closer to the truth. We are now discussing the players' role in this at least, and not placing the blame mostly on Valentine. I said that the players ARE NOT AS TALENTED as some here think. That is why they performed the way they did this year. In particular, our pitching staff simply wasn't very good at all. I am making the assumption that they are all professionals and gave their best effort, accepting personal responsibility for the jobs they did (as everyone should), but their best job was poor due to lack of talent. That is what you fail to comprehend: the pitchers simply are not very good.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    i get why most want him gone.  he has a knack for leaving a bad taste in your mouth.

    but i would like to see him get another chance.  let him pick his own staff and see what he can do.  next year looks like a sub .500 year anyways, so let's see what he can do with his own people.  maybe that makes a difference?  by all accounts his baseball IQ is off the charts. 

    there have been a couple of puzzling head-scratching moves but mostly i think his in-game managing has been pretty good.  just my opinion....

     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    I doubt you remember many of the details either. What I remember is how thorough the analysis was. Many of us thought it was a brilliant post. A majority of those at Sawxheads as I recall agreed with nearly every example he gave us.

    4/17/2007

    Down 2-1 at Toronto,  Drew on 1st, 0 outs, Lugo up.

    Tchandra wanted Lugo to bunt to play for a tie on the road.  On a 3-2 count, Tito sent the runner.  Lugo lined into a DP.  There isn't any doubt that Tito's play is the norm for managers.

    The fact that you and the Sawxheads don't understand that doesn't mean anything.

     



    Do you recall the rest of that brilliant analytical post? I admit that I don't. If you can dig it up, great. What I do remember is that for the vast majority of the instances cited by TChandra, he was spot on. I am glad Tito is gone; I am glad Epstein is gone. And I will be glad when Cheringon, Lucchino, and Valentine are all gone so we can start rebuilding effectively.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    If you see how Valentine talked about Doubront yesterday , you will get an idea of why he has not been fired already.  I am pretty sure he will be let go after the season , but he has done a much better job under difficult circumstances than many on here will give him credit for.  It is funny how some fans will defend even the most miscreant of players , but will be quick to call for the manager's head.  The same thing happened with Francona , and will happen to whoever is next. 

     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    If you see how Valentine talked about Doubront yesterday , you will get an idea of why he has not been fired already.  I am pretty sure he will be let go after the season , but he has done a much better job under difficult circumstances than many on here will give him credit for.  It is funny how some fans will defend even the most miscreant of players , but will be quick to call for the manager's head.  The same thing happened with Francona , and will happen to whoever is next. 

     



    I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    If you see how Valentine talked about Doubront yesterday , you will get an idea of why he has not been fired already.  I am pretty sure he will be let go after the season , but he has done a much better job under difficult circumstances than many on here will give him credit for.  It is funny how some fans will defend even the most miscreant of players , but will be quick to call for the manager's head.  The same thing happened with Francona , and will happen to whoever is next. 

     



    I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.

     




    Exactly.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.

    [/QUOTE]

    Does this apply to Francona too, or just Valentine?  Because if it applies to Francona, then last year's meltdown had nothing to do with him 'losing the clubhouse' or whatever, correct?

     

     

     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    Not firing Bobby, as others have said, puts the monkey where it belongs--on the backs of the players and the FO.  Firing Bobby--last week, last month, or whenever-- would have sent the opposite message, which is the one dannycaters and others espouse, which is that this mess is basically Bobby's fault.

    That said, managers always bear some responsbility for a season's outcomes as well as for things they did--decisions made, etc--or things they said.  I do tend to think he says way too much to the press about the players, and I think that will cost him his job after the season is over. 

    It's never good for a franchise to have three managers in three years, but the reasons for not retaining Francona were manifest--horrible September, plus an admission he had lost the team.  So too for Bobby V--horrible season (by no means all or even mostly his fault), plus a little too much commentary when silence or diplomatic evasiveness would have worked better. 

    Ironically, one of the guys, Aceves, Bobby V really supported and even promoted, has become a problem child.  Aceves wanted to start, and maybe Bobby V wanted that too, but it was not to be.  So Aceves got the closer job and a lot of support from Bobby, to no avail.   Tantrums occurred anyway. 

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to FenwayJimmy's comment:

    I read a Jon Lester interview recently and he took full responsibolity for his offseason and said that Beckett also did. Most of the players have made similar quotes - especially Pedroia, " We stink".  Most reasonable fans put the blame on the players. Only a few pot stirrers on this forum like to assess all of the blame on the manager. You can't stop lonely posters for stirring the pot.

     



    If the players can do it, why not the fans then? I am glad to hear that Lester, Beckett, and Pedroia took responsibility for their personal performances. We all probably differ in how MUCH their performances contributed to the debacle this year (I think its close to 100%) and WHY they performed so poorly (I think its lack of talent; some think its off years; Breidy thinks its because of the manager spoiling the stew). You know, folks who believe that the manager is accountable in any significant way remind of kids that came in to see me when I was still practicing pediatrics. I always asked how they were doing in school. If they weren't doing well a large percentage of kids blamed the teacher, and I always told them that that wasn't going to fly in my office and that they had to give me another reason. I said that we all have bosses we don't like and we still have to come to work and do our jobs as well as possible. Blaming Valentine for having a lot to do with this season is a classic copout.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to FenwayJimmy's comment:

    I read a Jon Lester interview recently and he took full responsibolity for his offseason and said that Beckett also did. Most of the players have made similar quotes - especially Pedroia, " We stink".  Most reasonable fans put the blame on the players. Only a few pot stirrers on this forum like to assess all of the blame on the manager. You can't stop lonely posters for stirring the pot.

     



    If the players can do it, why not the fans then? I am glad to hear that Lester, Beckett, and Pedroia took responsibility for their personal performances. We all probably differ in how MUCH their performances contributed to the debacle this year (I think its close to 100%) and WHY they performed so poorly (I think its lack of talent; some think its off years; Breidy thinks its because of the manager spoiling the stew). You know, folks who believe that the manager is accountable in any significant way remind of kids that came in to see me when I was still practicing pediatrics. I always asked how they were doing in school. If they weren't doing well a large percentage of kids blamed the teacher, and I always told them that that wasn't going to fly in my office and that they had to give me another reason. I said that we all have bosses we don't like and we still have to come to work and do our jobs as well as possible. Blaming Valentine for having a lot to do with this season is a classic copout.



    So blaming Francona for having anything to do with last year's collapse was also a copout. 

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to FenwayJimmy's comment:

    I read a Jon Lester interview recently and he took full responsibolity for his offseason and said that Beckett also did. Most of the players have made similar quotes - especially Pedroia, " We stink".  Most reasonable fans put the blame on the players. Only a few pot stirrers on this forum like to assess all of the blame on the manager. You can't stop lonely posters for stirring the pot.

     



    If the players can do it, why not the fans then? I am glad to hear that Lester, Beckett, and Pedroia took responsibility for their personal performances. We all probably differ in how MUCH their performances contributed to the debacle this year (I think its close to 100%) and WHY they performed so poorly (I think its lack of talent; some think its off years; Breidy thinks its because of the manager spoiling the stew). You know, folks who believe that the manager is accountable in any significant way remind of kids that came in to see me when I was still practicing pediatrics. I always asked how they were doing in school. If they weren't doing well a large percentage of kids blamed the teacher, and I always told them that that wasn't going to fly in my office and that they had to give me another reason. I said that we all have bosses we don't like and we still have to come to work and do our jobs as well as possible. Blaming Valentine for having a lot to do with this season is a classic copout.



    So blaming Francona for having anything to do with last year's collapse was also a copout. 

     

     



    I didn't blame Francona for last year. The players behaved like they were in a country club. I was all over Beckett and Lackey for drinking beer in the clubhouse during games. That said, Francona is not totally blameless (as Valentine isn't totally blameless either). He had a role in the collapse. My main criticism of Tito was about his in-game tactics. That cost us games because the moves he made put the players in a WORSE position to win.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    On day 6 of the BV deathwatch, the Sox seem to be pushing hard for that protected draft pick.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    It is nearly impossible for us to get to the 11th pick. We may still get to #6 with some luck. 

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from jackbu. Show jackbu's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    Best to let him finish the season rather then giving into the players.

    Rarely does a replacement make a difference.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to jackbu's comment:

    Best to let him finish the season rather then giving into the players.

    Rarely does a replacement make a difference.




    True, but the day after the season ends he should be fired. There is no need to repeat the debacle of last year's managerial search, one that got delayed far too long. The search should begin immediately and a new manager should be hired within a month or so. Ideally he should be someone who is not only a great in game tactician but someone who manages the media circus well. He should also be tactful when dealing with the players and good with the younger players-but strict. Should be interesting.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to FenwayJimmy's comment:

    I read a Jon Lester interview recently and he took full responsibolity for his offseason and said that Beckett also did. Most of the players have made similar quotes - especially Pedroia, " We stink".  Most reasonable fans put the blame on the players. Only a few pot stirrers on this forum like to assess all of the blame on the manager. You can't stop lonely posters for stirring the pot.

     



    If the players can do it, why not the fans then? I am glad to hear that Lester, Beckett, and Pedroia took responsibility for their personal performances. We all probably differ in how MUCH their performances contributed to the debacle this year (I think its close to 100%) and WHY they performed so poorly (I think its lack of talent; some think its off years; Breidy thinks its because of the manager spoiling the stew). You know, folks who believe that the manager is accountable in any significant way remind of kids that came in to see me when I was still practicing pediatrics. I always asked how they were doing in school. If they weren't doing well a large percentage of kids blamed the teacher, and I always told them that that wasn't going to fly in my office and that they had to give me another reason. I said that we all have bosses we don't like and we still have to come to work and do our jobs as well as possible. Blaming Valentine for having a lot to do with this season is a classic copout.



    So blaming Francona for having anything to do with last year's collapse was also a copout. 

     

     



    I didn't blame Francona for last year. The players behaved like they were in a country club. I was all over Beckett and Lackey for drinking beer in the clubhouse during games. That said, Francona is not totally blameless (as Valentine isn't totally blameless either). He had a role in the collapse. My main criticism of Tito was about his in-game tactics. That cost us games because the moves he made put the players in a WORSE position to win.



    I agree, I didn't blame Francona for the Sept collapse. I had been a detractor of Francona's managerial abilities from 2004 and on. He is a poor baseball tactition, always was and always will be.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment



    I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.



    Does this apply to Francona too, or just Valentine?  Because if it applies to Francona, then last year's meltdown had nothing to do with him 'losing the clubhouse' or whatever, correct?

     

     



The meltdown had nothing to do with Francona. Except there were 2 or 3 games during the meltdown that were mismanaged by him causing losses. Any one of those games cost the Sox a playoff spot.

 
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to BOSOX1941's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment



    I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.



    Does this apply to Francona too, or just Valentine?  Because if it applies to Francona, then last year's meltdown had nothing to do with him 'losing the clubhouse' or whatever, correct?

     

     



    The meltdown had nothing to do with Francona. Except there were 2 or 3 games during the meltdown that were mismanaged by him causing losses. Any one of those games cost the Sox a playoff spot.



  • Since you clearly have all of the scouting reports, including all of the statistics on individual matchups, a detailed report on recent trends, a Major League Coaching staff sitting with you to discuss decisions with, an up to the minute injury report on all of the Sox players, as well as a direct line to the bullpen during games so you can find out who is available in a given situation or who might have just warmed up and had no feel for his out pitch whatsoever, let's hear an example of a situation where Tito Francona blew a game because he wasn't a good "in game tactition."  I'll hold my breath... 

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to jasko2248's comment:

    In response to BOSOX1941's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment



    I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.



    Does this apply to Francona too, or just Valentine?  Because if it applies to Francona, then last year's meltdown had nothing to do with him 'losing the clubhouse' or whatever, correct?

     

     



    The meltdown had nothing to do with Francona. Except there were 2 or 3 games during the meltdown that were mismanaged by him causing losses. Any one of those games cost the Sox a playoff spot.



    Since you clearly have all of the scouting reports, including all of the statistics on individual matchups, a detailed report on recent trends, a Major League Coaching staff sitting with you to discuss decisions with, an up to the minute injury report on all of the Sox players, as well as a direct line to the bullpen during games so you can find out who is available in a given situation or who might have just warmed up and had no feel for his out pitch whatsoever, let's hear an example of a situation where Tito Francona blew a game because he wasn't a good "in game tactition."  I'll hold my breath... 



  • Pick any game where he sent out the starting lineup........

     
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