Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

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    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to BOSOX1941's comment:

    In response to jasko2248's comment:

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    I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.



    Does this apply to Francona too, or just Valentine?  Because if it applies to Francona, then last year's meltdown had nothing to do with him 'losing the clubhouse' or whatever, correct?

     

     



    The meltdown had nothing to do with Francona. Except there were 2 or 3 games during the meltdown that were mismanaged by him causing losses. Any one of those games cost the Sox a playoff spot.



    Since you clearly have all of the scouting reports, including all of the statistics on individual matchups, a detailed report on recent trends, a Major League Coaching staff sitting with you to discuss decisions with, an up to the minute injury report on all of the Sox players, as well as a direct line to the bullpen during games so you can find out who is available in a given situation or who might have just warmed up and had no feel for his out pitch whatsoever, let's hear an example of a situation where Tito Francona blew a game because he wasn't a good "in game tactition."  I'll hold my breath... 



    Pick any game where he sent out the starting lineup........



Just as I thought. You're just another whiner who likes to moan and groan, yet has no idea why. I figured somone who whines about someone else as much as you do would be able to cite at least one example of an "in game tactical decision" that didn't make any sense.  Clearly I was just as wrong as you are about Tito....

 
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment



    I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.



    Does this apply to Francona too, or just Valentine?  Because if it applies to Francona, then last year's meltdown had nothing to do with him 'losing the clubhouse' or whatever, correct?

     

     




  • I knew a paean to FrancoMa was coming from you sooner or later.  Well that's fine; I always knew you were a died in the wool Franconian so there is no problem with that.  The problem is that FrancoMa should have been canned long before he was.  True, he won two WS and that will be his legacy, a good one, but most of us know that he left much to be desired in the dugout.  He was a players manager and good in the clubhouse and he kept the pressure off of the players.  However, every year he seemed to cost us between 10-12 games a year with some of the most pathetic dugout managing known to man.  He cost us the 2005, 2008, and 2009 AL East and certainly the '08 AL Title.  He ran a stale station-to-station game, never hit and ran, never turned the runners loose, the extra base was an unknown quantity and he left pitchers in there way too long.  Valentine is getting only one Bob; Tito got three more than he deserved in my opinion.

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to wallyisdead's comment:

    In response to seabeachfred's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment



    I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.



    Does this apply to Francona too, or just Valentine?  Because if it applies to Francona, then last year's meltdown had nothing to do with him 'losing the clubhouse' or whatever, correct?

     

     




    I knew a paean to FrancoMa was coming from you sooner or later.  Well that's fine; I always knew you were a died in the wool Franconian so there is no problem with that.  The problem is that FrancoMa should have been canned long before he was.  True, he won two WS and that will be his legacy, a good one, but most of us know that he left much to be desired in the dugout.  He was a players manager and good in the clubhouse and he kept the pressure off of the players.  However, every year he seemed to cost us between 10-12 games a year with some of the most pathetic dugout managing known to man.  He cost us the 2005, 2008, and 2009 AL East and certainly the '08 AL Title.  He ran a stale station-to-station game, never hit and ran, never turned the runners loose, the extra base was an unknown quantity and he left pitchers in there way too long.  Valentine is getting only one Bob; Tito got three more than he deserved in my opinion.

     




     

     

    And your boy Valentine?




  • "MY BOY VALENTINE" will most likely be fired at the end of this season, much of which he deserved because of his big mouth, his inabiity to turn down the heat and his incessant and sarcastic barbs towards some of his players.  However, he never had much of a chance in the first place.  He was saddled with coaches he didn't want, especially a pitching coach who was inept, he never had his back covered our the miserable GM we have, and who never went out and got him the pitching the team needed, whether that was only his fault or that of the owner for holding on to his purse.  So "my boy" will be out of a job after this season.

    As for "your boy  FrancoMa", let me predict that now he will get another managing job and will fail miserably because he isn't a LaRussa, a Scoiscia, a Bosche, or a Maddon.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to pike's comment:

    Fred, why must I have to reread the entire thread everytime that you post? Why not just to the post using the "Reply to" button?




    For you Pike, anything.  OK?????  Got to run.  See you and the rest of the gang tomorrow.

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    Tchandra even got on me once because he said I under computed just how many games that miserable field manager cost us.  Tchan had actually counted 15 by August;

    Again, and this was brought up at the time, to say that Tito had cost them 15 games by August would mean that you thought the RS should've been 80-27 by 8/1 instead of 65-42.

    80-27 is about a .750 winning percentage.  That means they should have been on pace for about 122 wins.

    Do you really think that the 2007 Red Sox were the best team in history?

    Sorry, but when you step back from the emotions, it is a laughably inept perspective.

     
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    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    I doubt you remember many of the details either. What I remember is how thorough the analysis was. Many of us thought it was a brilliant post. A majority of those at Sawxheads as I recall agreed with nearly every example he gave us.

    4/17/2007

    Down 2-1 at Toronto,  Drew on 1st, 0 outs, Lugo up.

    Tchandra wanted Lugo to bunt to play for a tie on the road.  On a 3-2 count, Tito sent the runner.  Lugo lined into a DP.  There isn't any doubt that Tito's play is the norm for managers.

    The fact that you and the Sawxheads don't understand that doesn't mean anything.

     



    Do you recall the rest of that brilliant analytical post? I admit that I don't. If you can dig it up, great. What I do remember is that for the vast majority of the instances cited by TChandra, he was spot on. I am glad Tito is gone; I am glad Epstein is gone. And I will be glad when Cheringon, Lucchino, and Valentine are all gone so we can start rebuilding effectively.



    Don't bother to dig it up:  re-create it.

    Up until August 1, the Red sox were 16-16 in 1-run games.

    Your premise is that Tito was at fault for losing 15 of those 16 1-run games, unless you think he was costing them multiple runs.  So you are basically saying that we should have been 31-1 in one-run games.

    Pick out the 15 losses and explain how he lost them.

    This should be good for a chuckle.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    I remember that 'Tchandra' thread because my first year on the forum was 2007 and I spent much of the time arguing with the Francona bashers.  As I recall a lot of 'Tchandra's' analysis was going back through game logs and finding instances like this:

    Red Sox batter A singled.

    Red Sox batter B hit into double play.

    Red Sox batter C singled.

    Red Sox batter D made an out.

    From that, 'Tchandra' would conclude that Tito should have had Batter B bunt Batter A to second, which would have resulted in Batter C driving in a run, therefore Tito cost us a run, and if we lost that game by a run it meant Tito 'lost the game'.  I think 'Tchandra' believed that every time the first batter got on first base you should bunt him over.

    Of course he would completely disregard any instances where Batter B got a hit or a walk instead of bunting.

    The whole thing was amusing.  And 'Tchandra' disappeared when the Red Sox won the World Series that year.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    Don't bother to dig it up: re-create it.

    Up until August 1, the Red sox were 16-16 in 1-run games.

    Your premise is that Tito was at fault for losing 15 of those 16 1-run games, unless you think he was costing them multiple runs. So you are basically saying that we should have been 31-1 in one-run games.

    Pick out the 15 losses and explain how he lost them.

    This should be good for a chuckle.

    Sorry Brady. Not interested in recreating the past for your amusement. The fact of the matter is that TChandra's post was brilliant and never refuted. If you want to go back and dig it up great. But I am not going to do your work for you.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    Sorry Brady. Not interested in recreating the past for your amusement. The fact of the matter is that TChandra's post was brilliant and never refuted. If you want to go back and dig it up great. But I am not going to do your work for you.



    LOL, come on Pumpsie, you know very well that the only people who thought the 'list of Tito's losses' was brilliant were the Fellowship of the Miserable Tito Bashers.  The way you talk about Tchandra you sound like you wanted him nominated for a Nobel Prize.  Too funny.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    Sorry Brady. Not interested in recreating the past for your amusement. The fact of the matter is that TChandra's post was brilliant and never refuted. If you want to go back and dig it up great. But I am not going to do your work for you.



    LOL, come on Pumpsie, you know very well that the only people who thought the 'list of Tito's losses' was brilliant were the Fellowship of the Miserable Tito Bashers.  The way you talk about Tchandra you sound like you wanted him nominated for a Nobel Prize.  Too funny.




    It's simple; Agree with the FOM and you're a genius. Disagree and you're a pom-pom waving, Red sox colored glasses wearing idiot, with no baseball sense whatsoever.

     

    The only reason Pumpsie and Fred ae back is that they got tired of patting each other on the back for their brilliance and needed someone to argue with.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    Apparently Cherington has let the cat out of the bag. The search for a new manager will occur sooner rather than later this year. Here is what he said in an interview on WEEI:

    "I'd always rather get the decision right than rush it," Cherington said. "But what we know we need to do is hit the ground running this offseason. One of the things that, as I look back on last offseason, that didn't go perfectly was simply the amount of time that we spent on the manager search and what that did to the rest of the offseason and I would like to spend less time on it this offseason, that's for sure."

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    Apparently Cherington has let the cat out of the bag. The search for a new manager will occur sooner rather than later this year. Here is what he said in an interview on WEEI:

    "I'd always rather get the decision right than rush it," Cherington said. "But what we know we need to do is hit the ground running this offseason. One of the things that, as I look back on last offseason, that didn't go perfectly was simply the amount of time that we spent on the manager search and what that did to the rest of the offseason and I would like to spend less time on it this offseason, that's for sure."



    It would seem so. He was a questionable hire, at best.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    Sorry Brady. Not interested in recreating the past for your amusement. The fact of the matter is that TChandra's post was brilliant and never refuted. If you want to go back and dig it up great. But I am not going to do your work for you.



    LOL, come on Pumpsie, you know very well that the only people who thought the 'list of Tito's losses' was brilliant were the Fellowship of the Miserable Tito Bashers.  The way you talk about Tchandra you sound like you wanted him nominated for a Nobel Prize.  Too funny.




    FOM...thats an old term. What was the acronym we pasted on the other side? POOPS I think. Oh well...bygones. In any event, I do think that TChandra had some good points. Francona made a lot of tactical errors, even if you didn't agree with ALL 15 instances mentioned in that post. Its the job of the manager to put his players in the best possible position to win, and too often I don't think Tito did that.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to wallyisdead's comment:

    Where is that pumpsie Red Sox will choke in 2007 thread?



    He didn't say they would choke.

    He said the were the greatest chokers in history.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    In response to wallyisdead's comment:

    Where is that pumpsie Red Sox will choke in 2007 thread?



    He didn't say they would choke.

    He said the were the greatest chokers in history.



    They were. Just not that year.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    Did we mention that this new chatboard is horrible? It really is confusing trying to read replies to others and it all be in a pathetic looking font. Yuck. 

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    Kevin Walsh of bostoncomcast sports reported this morning, on the heels of Cheringtons comments yesterday on WEEI, a deal has already been brokered between BV and the FO, and have already started looking for his replacement.

     
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    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    Why a guy who could have been fired nearly 5 months ago for his obvious lack of control could be allowed to manage an entire season is another example of how the Red Sox organization can spite itself. It's the fans who suffer. But hey, everyone remember when the streets of Boton were jumping up and down for joy because they made the big trade and unloaded the big contracts. Oh happy, happy, joy, joy. This team is so far burnt gone, so not even close to becoming anything playoff-savvy. It's going to be 3 years before they are a contender again. They have to make drastic, drastic, complete overhauls of the roster. It's not easy in today's economy and with the lack of talent due to way too many teams in MLB. Remember 2012. Because 2013 is probably going to be very close to this one and 2014 might be .500 or less as well. It's hard to watch this team, harder to watch with a clownact in the dugout ripping whatever hopes we had for some of the younger players. I'm glad the Sox have once again made a decision 5 months after they should have made it.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    Only the Boston Red Sox will trade the team instead of fire the manager. They made the bed, and now fans suffer. How embarrassing to not even challenge for an extra wild card spot. Pathetic. Absolutely disgusting.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    It's got to be the highest payroll season for the most losses in MLB history, once they add it up. The Pirates once again with another lousy season. We're the Pirates of the AL. 

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    dc I finally agree that he (BV) needs to go but not for the same reasons all together

     
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