Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    If you see how Valentine talked about Doubront yesterday , you will get an idea of why he has not been fired already.  I am pretty sure he will be let go after the season , but he has done a much better job under difficult circumstances than many on here will give him credit for.  It is funny how some fans will defend even the most miscreant of players , but will be quick to call for the manager's head.  The same thing happened with Francona , and will happen to whoever is next. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    If you see how Valentine talked about Doubront yesterday , you will get an idea of why he has not been fired already.  I am pretty sure he will be let go after the season , but he has done a much better job under difficult circumstances than many on here will give him credit for.  It is funny how some fans will defend even the most miscreant of players , but will be quick to call for the manager's head.  The same thing happened with Francona , and will happen to whoever is next. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Exactly.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.

    [/QUOTE]

    Does this apply to Francona too, or just Valentine?  Because if it applies to Francona, then last year's meltdown had nothing to do with him 'losing the clubhouse' or whatever, correct?

     

     

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    Not firing Bobby, as others have said, puts the monkey where it belongs--on the backs of the players and the FO.  Firing Bobby--last week, last month, or whenever-- would have sent the opposite message, which is the one dannycaters and others espouse, which is that this mess is basically Bobby's fault.

    That said, managers always bear some responsbility for a season's outcomes as well as for things they did--decisions made, etc--or things they said.  I do tend to think he says way too much to the press about the players, and I think that will cost him his job after the season is over. 

    It's never good for a franchise to have three managers in three years, but the reasons for not retaining Francona were manifest--horrible September, plus an admission he had lost the team.  So too for Bobby V--horrible season (by no means all or even mostly his fault), plus a little too much commentary when silence or diplomatic evasiveness would have worked better. 

    Ironically, one of the guys, Aceves, Bobby V really supported and even promoted, has become a problem child.  Aceves wanted to start, and maybe Bobby V wanted that too, but it was not to be.  So Aceves got the closer job and a lot of support from Bobby, to no avail.   Tantrums occurred anyway. 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to FenwayJimmy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I read a Jon Lester interview recently and he took full responsibolity for his offseason and said that Beckett also did. Most of the players have made similar quotes - especially Pedroia, " We stink".  Most reasonable fans put the blame on the players. Only a few pot stirrers on this forum like to assess all of the blame on the manager. You can't stop lonely posters for stirring the pot.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    If the players can do it, why not the fans then? I am glad to hear that Lester, Beckett, and Pedroia took responsibility for their personal performances. We all probably differ in how MUCH their performances contributed to the debacle this year (I think its close to 100%) and WHY they performed so poorly (I think its lack of talent; some think its off years; Breidy thinks its because of the manager spoiling the stew). You know, folks who believe that the manager is accountable in any significant way remind of kids that came in to see me when I was still practicing pediatrics. I always asked how they were doing in school. If they weren't doing well a large percentage of kids blamed the teacher, and I always told them that that wasn't going to fly in my office and that they had to give me another reason. I said that we all have bosses we don't like and we still have to come to work and do our jobs as well as possible. Blaming Valentine for having a lot to do with this season is a classic copout.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to FenwayJimmy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I read a Jon Lester interview recently and he took full responsibolity for his offseason and said that Beckett also did. Most of the players have made similar quotes - especially Pedroia, " We stink".  Most reasonable fans put the blame on the players. Only a few pot stirrers on this forum like to assess all of the blame on the manager. You can't stop lonely posters for stirring the pot.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    If the players can do it, why not the fans then? I am glad to hear that Lester, Beckett, and Pedroia took responsibility for their personal performances. We all probably differ in how MUCH their performances contributed to the debacle this year (I think its close to 100%) and WHY they performed so poorly (I think its lack of talent; some think its off years; Breidy thinks its because of the manager spoiling the stew). You know, folks who believe that the manager is accountable in any significant way remind of kids that came in to see me when I was still practicing pediatrics. I always asked how they were doing in school. If they weren't doing well a large percentage of kids blamed the teacher, and I always told them that that wasn't going to fly in my office and that they had to give me another reason. I said that we all have bosses we don't like and we still have to come to work and do our jobs as well as possible. Blaming Valentine for having a lot to do with this season is a classic copout.

    [/QUOTE]

    So blaming Francona for having anything to do with last year's collapse was also a copout. 

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to FenwayJimmy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I read a Jon Lester interview recently and he took full responsibolity for his offseason and said that Beckett also did. Most of the players have made similar quotes - especially Pedroia, " We stink".  Most reasonable fans put the blame on the players. Only a few pot stirrers on this forum like to assess all of the blame on the manager. You can't stop lonely posters for stirring the pot.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    If the players can do it, why not the fans then? I am glad to hear that Lester, Beckett, and Pedroia took responsibility for their personal performances. We all probably differ in how MUCH their performances contributed to the debacle this year (I think its close to 100%) and WHY they performed so poorly (I think its lack of talent; some think its off years; Breidy thinks its because of the manager spoiling the stew). You know, folks who believe that the manager is accountable in any significant way remind of kids that came in to see me when I was still practicing pediatrics. I always asked how they were doing in school. If they weren't doing well a large percentage of kids blamed the teacher, and I always told them that that wasn't going to fly in my office and that they had to give me another reason. I said that we all have bosses we don't like and we still have to come to work and do our jobs as well as possible. Blaming Valentine for having a lot to do with this season is a classic copout.

    [/QUOTE]

    So blaming Francona for having anything to do with last year's collapse was also a copout. 

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I didn't blame Francona for last year. The players behaved like they were in a country club. I was all over Beckett and Lackey for drinking beer in the clubhouse during games. That said, Francona is not totally blameless (as Valentine isn't totally blameless either). He had a role in the collapse. My main criticism of Tito was about his in-game tactics. That cost us games because the moves he made put the players in a WORSE position to win.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    On day 6 of the BV deathwatch, the Sox seem to be pushing hard for that protected draft pick.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    It is nearly impossible for us to get to the 11th pick. We may still get to #6 with some luck. 

     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to jackbu's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Best to let him finish the season rather then giving into the players.

    Rarely does a replacement make a difference.

    [/QUOTE]


    True, but the day after the season ends he should be fired. There is no need to repeat the debacle of last year's managerial search, one that got delayed far too long. The search should begin immediately and a new manager should be hired within a month or so. Ideally he should be someone who is not only a great in game tactician but someone who manages the media circus well. He should also be tactful when dealing with the players and good with the younger players-but strict. Should be interesting.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to FenwayJimmy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I read a Jon Lester interview recently and he took full responsibolity for his offseason and said that Beckett also did. Most of the players have made similar quotes - especially Pedroia, " We stink".  Most reasonable fans put the blame on the players. Only a few pot stirrers on this forum like to assess all of the blame on the manager. You can't stop lonely posters for stirring the pot.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    If the players can do it, why not the fans then? I am glad to hear that Lester, Beckett, and Pedroia took responsibility for their personal performances. We all probably differ in how MUCH their performances contributed to the debacle this year (I think its close to 100%) and WHY they performed so poorly (I think its lack of talent; some think its off years; Breidy thinks its because of the manager spoiling the stew). You know, folks who believe that the manager is accountable in any significant way remind of kids that came in to see me when I was still practicing pediatrics. I always asked how they were doing in school. If they weren't doing well a large percentage of kids blamed the teacher, and I always told them that that wasn't going to fly in my office and that they had to give me another reason. I said that we all have bosses we don't like and we still have to come to work and do our jobs as well as possible. Blaming Valentine for having a lot to do with this season is a classic copout.

    [/QUOTE]

    So blaming Francona for having anything to do with last year's collapse was also a copout. 

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I didn't blame Francona for last year. The players behaved like they were in a country club. I was all over Beckett and Lackey for drinking beer in the clubhouse during games. That said, Francona is not totally blameless (as Valentine isn't totally blameless either). He had a role in the collapse. My main criticism of Tito was about his in-game tactics. That cost us games because the moves he made put the players in a WORSE position to win.

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree, I didn't blame Francona for the Sept collapse. I had been a detractor of Francona's managerial abilities from 2004 and on. He is a poor baseball tactition, always was and always will be.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.

    [/QUOTE]

    Does this apply to Francona too, or just Valentine?  Because if it applies to Francona, then last year's meltdown had nothing to do with him 'losing the clubhouse' or whatever, correct?

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    The meltdown had nothing to do with Francona. Except there were 2 or 3 games during the meltdown that were mismanaged by him causing losses. Any one of those games cost the Sox a playoff spot.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to BOSOX1941's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.

    [/QUOTE]

    Does this apply to Francona too, or just Valentine?  Because if it applies to Francona, then last year's meltdown had nothing to do with him 'losing the clubhouse' or whatever, correct?

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    The meltdown had nothing to do with Francona. Except there were 2 or 3 games during the meltdown that were mismanaged by him causing losses. Any one of those games cost the Sox a playoff spot.

    [/QUOTE]

    Since you clearly have all of the scouting reports, including all of the statistics on individual matchups, a detailed report on recent trends, a Major League Coaching staff sitting with you to discuss decisions with, an up to the minute injury report on all of the Sox players, as well as a direct line to the bullpen during games so you can find out who is available in a given situation or who might have just warmed up and had no feel for his out pitch whatsoever, let's hear an example of a situation where Tito Francona blew a game because he wasn't a good "in game tactition."  I'll hold my breath... 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to jasko2248's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to BOSOX1941's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.

    [/QUOTE]

    Does this apply to Francona too, or just Valentine?  Because if it applies to Francona, then last year's meltdown had nothing to do with him 'losing the clubhouse' or whatever, correct?

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    The meltdown had nothing to do with Francona. Except there were 2 or 3 games during the meltdown that were mismanaged by him causing losses. Any one of those games cost the Sox a playoff spot.

    [/QUOTE]

    Since you clearly have all of the scouting reports, including all of the statistics on individual matchups, a detailed report on recent trends, a Major League Coaching staff sitting with you to discuss decisions with, an up to the minute injury report on all of the Sox players, as well as a direct line to the bullpen during games so you can find out who is available in a given situation or who might have just warmed up and had no feel for his out pitch whatsoever, let's hear an example of a situation where Tito Francona blew a game because he wasn't a good "in game tactition."  I'll hold my breath... 

    [/QUOTE]

    Pick any game where he sent out the starting lineup........

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to BOSOX1941's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to jasko2248's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to BOSOX1941's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.

    [/QUOTE]

    Does this apply to Francona too, or just Valentine?  Because if it applies to Francona, then last year's meltdown had nothing to do with him 'losing the clubhouse' or whatever, correct?

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    The meltdown had nothing to do with Francona. Except there were 2 or 3 games during the meltdown that were mismanaged by him causing losses. Any one of those games cost the Sox a playoff spot.

    [/QUOTE]

    Since you clearly have all of the scouting reports, including all of the statistics on individual matchups, a detailed report on recent trends, a Major League Coaching staff sitting with you to discuss decisions with, an up to the minute injury report on all of the Sox players, as well as a direct line to the bullpen during games so you can find out who is available in a given situation or who might have just warmed up and had no feel for his out pitch whatsoever, let's hear an example of a situation where Tito Francona blew a game because he wasn't a good "in game tactition."  I'll hold my breath... 

    [/QUOTE]

    Pick any game where he sent out the starting lineup........

    [/QUOTE]

    Just as I thought. You're just another whiner who likes to moan and groan, yet has no idea why. I figured somone who whines about someone else as much as you do would be able to cite at least one example of an "in game tactical decision" that didn't make any sense.  Clearly I was just as wrong as you are about Tito....

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.

    [/QUOTE]

    Does this apply to Francona too, or just Valentine?  Because if it applies to Francona, then last year's meltdown had nothing to do with him 'losing the clubhouse' or whatever, correct?

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I knew a paean to FrancoMa was coming from you sooner or later.  Well that's fine; I always knew you were a died in the wool Franconian so there is no problem with that.  The problem is that FrancoMa should have been canned long before he was.  True, he won two WS and that will be his legacy, a good one, but most of us know that he left much to be desired in the dugout.  He was a players manager and good in the clubhouse and he kept the pressure off of the players.  However, every year he seemed to cost us between 10-12 games a year with some of the most pathetic dugout managing known to man.  He cost us the 2005, 2008, and 2009 AL East and certainly the '08 AL Title.  He ran a stale station-to-station game, never hit and ran, never turned the runners loose, the extra base was an unknown quantity and he left pitchers in there way too long.  Valentine is getting only one Bob; Tito got three more than he deserved in my opinion.

     

     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to wallyisdead's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to seabeachfred's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment

    [/QUOTE]

    I agree. And that is because there is a prevalent attitude, not only here on this board, but in this country, not to assume full responsibility for what you do. If an individual has the choice between right and wrong and knows the difference, and chooses wrong, too often its brushed off. If an individual slacks off on the job and could do better, that too is often rationalized in some way. If Jon Lester stinks, if Josh Beckett stinks, if DiceK Matsusaka stinks, if our FO stinks, they ought to assume full responsibility for the kind of crappy job they have done. Similarly, we as fans should place primary blame squarely where it belongs: on the players, not the manager.

    [/QUOTE]

    Does this apply to Francona too, or just Valentine?  Because if it applies to Francona, then last year's meltdown had nothing to do with him 'losing the clubhouse' or whatever, correct?

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I knew a paean to FrancoMa was coming from you sooner or later.  Well that's fine; I always knew you were a died in the wool Franconian so there is no problem with that.  The problem is that FrancoMa should have been canned long before he was.  True, he won two WS and that will be his legacy, a good one, but most of us know that he left much to be desired in the dugout.  He was a players manager and good in the clubhouse and he kept the pressure off of the players.  However, every year he seemed to cost us between 10-12 games a year with some of the most pathetic dugout managing known to man.  He cost us the 2005, 2008, and 2009 AL East and certainly the '08 AL Title.  He ran a stale station-to-station game, never hit and ran, never turned the runners loose, the extra base was an unknown quantity and he left pitchers in there way too long.  Valentine is getting only one Bob; Tito got three more than he deserved in my opinion.

     

    [/QUOTE]


     

     

    And your boy Valentine?

    [/QUOTE]


    "MY BOY VALENTINE" will most likely be fired at the end of this season, much of which he deserved because of his big mouth, his inabiity to turn down the heat and his incessant and sarcastic barbs towards some of his players.  However, he never had much of a chance in the first place.  He was saddled with coaches he didn't want, especially a pitching coach who was inept, he never had his back covered our the miserable GM we have, and who never went out and got him the pitching the team needed, whether that was only his fault or that of the owner for holding on to his purse.  So "my boy" will be out of a job after this season.

    As for "your boy  FrancoMa", let me predict that now he will get another managing job and will fail miserably because he isn't a LaRussa, a Scoiscia, a Bosche, or a Maddon.

     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    In response to pike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Fred, why must I have to reread the entire thread everytime that you post? Why not just to the post using the "Reply to" button?

    [/QUOTE]


    For you Pike, anything.  OK?????  Got to run.  See you and the rest of the gang tomorrow.

     

     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Why hasn't Bobby Valentine been fired already?

    Tchandra even got on me once because he said I under computed just how many games that miserable field manager cost us.  Tchan had actually counted 15 by August;

    Again, and this was brought up at the time, to say that Tito had cost them 15 games by August would mean that you thought the RS should've been 80-27 by 8/1 instead of 65-42.

    80-27 is about a .750 winning percentage.  That means they should have been on pace for about 122 wins.

    Do you really think that the 2007 Red Sox were the best team in history?

    Sorry, but when you step back from the emotions, it is a laughably inept perspective.

     
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