Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from lasitter. Show lasitter's posts

    Re: Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

    Updating my "records are misleading" theme with Dempster ...


    -----

    I was originally against acquiring Dempster, but any fair look at his performance would show that his salary has not been wasted. (Building on a previoius thread ...)

    If he'd had some run support this year his record would look much better:

    ----

    We could only manage two runs for him in his first outing against the Yankees.

    He handed off a lead against the Birds only to see Hanran blow the save.

    He allowed only one earned run in seven vs the Rays only to have Bailey blow the save and pick up the win.

    We couldn't manage more than two runs when he had to face KC.

    He pitched seven fairly solid innings against the Twins, giving up only two earned runs. He hurt himself with a balk, but the real damage was two errors by Ciriaco, one by Salty, no run support and relief pitching not as good as him.

    He earned the loss where the Jays buried him.

    Gave up fewer earned runs than the relief vs the Indians, but picked up the loss.

    Lost to the Phils because we couldn't muster more than one run despite seven fine innings of work.

    Pitched eight brilliant innings against the Birds, but we couldn't even manage a single run for him.

    Had a quality start against the Rays, but we manage only two runs.

    Was in line for the win vs the Jays until Uehara's blown save.

    He had a quality start against the Angels and was in line for the win until Uehara's blown save / Breslow's loss.

    His start against Seattle was a a disaster and gave his ERA a significant up-tick. W/L saved by hot bats.

    He allowed five runs vs NYY but would have lucked into a win until Taz blew the save.

    Won vs the Birds even though Taz gave up a run in relief.

    Should have lost vs Mariners but benefitted from a miracle finish.

    Didn't have a quality start vs the Astros, but Taz held off Houston.

    Pitched seven great innings vs Toronto, but Taz blew the save.

    ----

    I'm beginning to wonder if Taz and Dempster should be pitching in the same game together.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    The explanation is simple.  Good 7 innings or not, Farrell didn't feel confident in Dempster putting up another zero.  Ryan can be cruising along sometimes and then the bottom suddenly falls out. 




    Right move, wrong reliever. Should have brought in Breslow. Taz has an OPSa vs the Jays of over 1.400. Wrong guy.

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

    In response to torgorocks' comment:

    Right move, wrong reliever. Should have brought in Breslow. Taz has an OPSa vs the Jays of over 1.400. Wrong guy.



    Please explain why it was even remotely the 'right move?'

    [/QUOTE]

    Because if Dempster had been left in he would have blown the game and we would have lost.

    Instead, we won the game and Dempster's confidence is boosted by his good outing.

    So Farrell's move had two excellent results.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

    In response to lasitter's comment:

    Updating my "records are misleading" theme with Dempster ...


    -----

    I was originally against acquiring Dempster, but any fair look at his performance would show that his salary has not been wasted. (Building on a previoius thread ...)

    If he'd had some run support this year his record would look much better:

    ----

    We could only manage two runs for him in his first outing against the Yankees.

    He handed off a lead against the Birds only to see Hanran blow the save.

    He allowed only one earned run in seven vs the Rays only to have Bailey blow the save and pick up the win.

    We couldn't manage more than two runs when he had to face KC.

    He pitched seven fairly solid innings against the Twins, giving up only two earned runs. He hurt himself with a balk, but the real damage was two errors by Ciriaco, one by Salty, no run support and relief pitching not as good as him.

    He earned the loss where the Jays buried him.

    Gave up fewer earned runs than the relief vs the Indians, but picked up the loss.

    Lost to the Phils because we couldn't muster more than one run despite seven fine innings of work.

    Pitched eight brilliant innings against the Birds, but we couldn't even manage a single run for him.

    Had a quality start against the Rays, but we manage only two runs.

    Was in line for the win vs the Jays until Uehara's blown save.

    He had a quality start against the Angels and was in line for the win until Uehara's blown save / Breslow's loss.

    His start against Seattle was a a disaster and gave his ERA a significant up-tick. W/L saved by hot bats.

    He allowed five runs vs NYY but would have lucked into a win until Taz blew the save.

    Won vs the Birds even though Taz gave up a run in relief.

    Should have lost vs Mariners but benefitted from a miracle finish.

    Didn't have a quality start vs the Astros, but Taz held off Houston.

    Pitched seven great innings vs Toronto, but Taz blew the save.

    ----

    I'm beginning to wonder if Taz and Dempster should be pitching in the same game together.




    +1

    Would it be possible to repost this in every thread where the derogatory name "Dumpster" is used?

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

    In his last start, Boston was tied with Houston before Dempster gave up 3 runs in the bottom of the 6th innings, and was at 98 pitches when he was taken out.  And Boston eventually won the game.  A start before that, Boston was winning 1-0 before Dempster gave up 5 runs in the 5th innings before he was taken out after the 6th innings.  And the worst part is that Dempster havent went to 7th innings since May 28th. That is a long time to see him to finally to go deep in the ball game for himself.   I think Farrell trust the bullpen more than he trust Dempster.   Guess he could be wrong last nite.  Still what if Dempster came in the 8th innings and give up 2 runs, and could Boston lose the game.  Then these fans would be all over Dempster all morning today!!

    Another thing is that it seem that it been a while to see a starting pitcher for the Red Sox to win a decision.  When was the last time a starter won the game, not the bullpen.  I think it been a while.  That is why Farrell have to do everything to win the game instead the game is all about winning the game for the starter!!

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    I agree. It's my pet peeve with the way the game is managed today. Unless the pitcher is considered an ace (or possibly a 2) managers really don't manage. If it's a close game and a pitcher goes seven innings, it doesn't matter what the pitch count is. They automatically go with the eighth-inning guy then the closer.

     

    I'm not blasting Farrell for the move. He's not unique in this regard. It's simply how the game is played today. But 88 pitches and cruisin -- in this case, I'd ratehr err in giving him the next inning.

    For better or worse, that's how teams are designed today.  It used to be complete games.  Then they added a closer.  Then they added a setup guy.  Now the model is 7+1+1.

    If you look at it from a pitch count, the OPSa goes up every 25 pitches, with 76-100 the OPSa is at .754.  The average RP OPSa is at .695.  Taz is at .717.  The data move is to bring Taz in.  The gut feeling is to leave Dempster in.

     



    Sometimes managers think too much nowadays. If hes crusin', hes crusin. besides that, Taz is going to have his right arm hanging off pretty soon.

    I was saying it was a bad move when it happened and Ill say it now. And no, I wouldnt complain if Demp got into trouble. Sometimes the stats can get in the way. In this case, they probably did.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from donrd4. Show donrd4's posts

    Re: Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

    In response to ADG's comment:

    Any explanation? He's cruising along at 88 pitches. He leaves him in at 110 pitches in a bad game, but takes him out tonight.

    And check Tazawa's stats against the Jays.



    You are thinking like a after the fact jack!! If you were in the dugout you would have your answer. When a manager pulls a pitcher it's for a reason. You will not get your answer on here because it's all guessing.  We don't have a clue. Thats why we work for a living and come on here and wonder or come on here and think we know. Maybe some after the fact jack or mr stats guy will tell you how stupid it was to remove the pitcher.  I do not have the answer but maybe it's in the bullpen we trust !!! 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to torgorocks' comment:

     

    Right move, wrong reliever. Should have brought in Breslow. Taz has an OPSa vs the Jays of over 1.400. Wrong guy.

     



    Please explain why it was even remotely the 'right move?'

     



    Because if Dempster had been left in he would have blown the game and we would have lost.

    Instead, we won the game and Dempster's confidence is boosted by his good outing.

    So Farrell's move had two excellent results.



    And you know this for sure how? you cant be serious.

    Hes was crusin along at 88 pitches with no signs of trouble, shutting down every jays batter. just had a quick 1-2-3 IP. Taz was an excellent result? Have you seen his numbers vs the jays? sorry, but I very much and respectfully disagree with this whole post 100%.

 
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

    In response to torgorocks' comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

     

     

    The explanation is simple.  Good 7 innings or not, Farrell didn't feel confident in Dempster putting up another zero.  Ryan can be cruising along sometimes and then the bottom suddenly falls out. 

     

     

     




    Right move, wrong reliever. Should have brought in Breslow. Taz has an OPSa vs the Jays of over 1.400. Wrong guy.

     

     



    Please explain why it was even remotely the 'right move?'

     



    It is pretty text book, starter goes seven innings, pitches his first good start in 5 games, you make sure it doesn't end poorly. The reliever needs to get outs.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

    Horrible move.  Dempster is the soul of reliability and could have gone 9.  Tazawa is worthless.  Breslow is terrific.  Sox need a reliable manager.  John Henry needs to step in and get rid of this guy before the wheels come off.p

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

    In response to torgorocks' comment:

    Sometimes the answer is obvious. With Farrell 'stupid moves' are the norm, not the exception.


    And yet we're  in first place, by four games, when most analysts picked us last.  Go figure.

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    Horrible move.  Dempster is the soul of reliability and could have gone 9.  Tazawa is worthless.  Breslow is terrific.  Sox need a reliable manager.  John Henry needs to step in and get rid of this guy before the wheels come off.p




    Wink

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    Horrible move.  Dempster is the soul of reliability and could have gone 9.  Tazawa is worthless.  Breslow is terrific.  Sox need a reliable manager.  John Henry needs to step in and get rid of this guy before the wheels come off.p




    I like the job Farrell is doing overall, but I will speak up when I feel he made a bad move. Dempster is a big boy and doesnt need to be taken out after 7IP so his confidence is good. save that crap for the young guys like workman and Webster. He should have gone 8IP, or at least attemped it. especially with the bottom of the order up who had no success against him. Save Taz's arm. Hes nearing 60IP already and only just nearing mid August. Like I said before, he will be near or at 80IP by the end of the year and we will risk him hitting a wall. Thats a lot for a reliever in his role.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

    I'm not saying I agree with Farrells decision last night (I don't) but lets be real here.  If he left Dempster in and he game up a home run a lot of the same people (not all of you) would likely be making the same claims.

    I was very upset with his decision making last night, but ultimately I will judge a manager by the sum of all his decisions. 

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    Because if Dempster had been left in he would have blown the game and we would have lost.

    Instead, we won the game and Dempster's confidence is boosted by his good outing.

    So Farrell's move had two excellent results.



    And you know this for sure how? you cant be serious.

    Hes was crusin along at 88 pitches with no signs of trouble, shutting down every jays batter. just had a quick 1-2-3 IP. Taz was an excellent result? Have you seen his numbers vs the jays? sorry, but I very much and respectfully disagree with this whole post 100%.

    [/QUOTE]

    My post was tongue-in-cheek, southpaw.

    I figure if the bashers are allowed to know it was a bad move, I'm allowed to know it was a good move.

    And I'm not including you as a basher, you're far from it.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

    Wow too many fans think they know everything about baseball!!

    They are now being mad at Farrell for playing Napoli too much, they are now mad at Farrell for taking out Dempster, they are now mad at the upper management staffs for not calling up Bogaret and they are mad for Bucholtz for not coming back sooner.

    Quit whining guys.  I think Farrell, players, upper management staffs, etc are all doing a fantastic job this year.  Leave it alone.  more we want to change it, more we could blow the divisional lead to Tampa or Baltimore, and Boston could choke for the second time in three years!!

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    Horrible move.  Dempster is the soul of reliability and could have gone 9.  Tazawa is worthless.  Breslow is terrific.  Sox need a reliable manager.  John Henry needs to step in and get rid of this guy before the wheels come off.p



    max, you are a master of effective sarcasm. Laughing 

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

    I would guess Farrell thought a rested bullpen after an off day had a better chance of holding a one run lead for two innings thsn Dempster did after 7IP.

     

    If the bullpen had been used for 3 or 4 IP the day before, Farrell probably tries to squeeze one more inning out ofDempster.

     

     

    “Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me. Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”

    -Shel Silverstein

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

    In response to notin's comment:

    I would guess Farrell thought a rested bullpen after an off day had a better chance of holding a one run lead for two innings thsn Dempster did after 7IP.

     

    If the bullpen had been used for 3 or 4 IP the day before, Farrell probably tries to squeeze one more inning out ofDempster.

     

     

    “Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me. Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”

    -Shel Silverstein



    I was thinking the same thing, Perhaps he thought he was playing it safe with a well rested bullpen.  I still would like to see a manager show more confidence in his starter when they are deep in a game and their pitch counts are very low. 

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    In response to notin's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    I would guess Farrell thought a rested bullpen after an off day had a better chance of holding a one run lead for two innings thsn Dempster did after 7IP.

     

    If the bullpen had been used for 3 or 4 IP the day before, Farrell probably tries to squeeze one more inning out ofDempster.

     

     

    “Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me. Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”

    -Shel Silverstein

     



    I was thinking the same thing, Perhaps he thought he was playing it safe with a well rested bullpen.  I still would like to see a manager show more confidence in his starter when they are deep in a game and their pitch counts are very low. 

     

    [/QUOTE

    Frist of all, Dempster havent gone deep in all year aong.  And most of his earned runs occurred after 5th innings in all year along.  How much do you trust that guy going to pitch in the 8th innings??   Bullpen were unstoppable in all year along, which mean they are more to trust than the starting pitchers!!

    Sox won the game, move on!!

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    I was thinking the same thing, Perhaps he thought he was playing it safe with a well rested bullpen.  I still would like to see a manager show more confidence in his starter when they are deep in a game and their pitch counts are very low. 



    I think the key is that it was a one-run lead.  If it was a 3-run lead I'm quite sure Dempster goes out for the 8th.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

    I agree. It's my pet peeve with the way the game is managed today. Unless the pitcher is considered an ace (or possibly a 2) managers really don't manage. If it's a close game and a pitcher goes seven innings, it doesn't matter what the pitch count is. They automatically go with the eighth-inning guy then the closer.

     

    I'm not blasting Farrell for the move. He's not unique in this regard. It's simply how the game is played today. But 88 pitches and cruisin -- in this case, I'd ratehr err in giving him the next inning.

    For better or worse, that's how teams are designed today.  It used to be complete games.  Then they added a closer.  Then they added a setup guy.  Now the model is 7+1+1.

    If you look at it from a pitch count, the OPSa goes up every 25 pitches, with 76-100 the OPSa is at .754.  The average RP OPSa is at .695.  Taz is at .717.  The data move is to bring Taz in.  The gut feeling is to leave Dempster in.

     

     



    Sometimes managers think too much nowadays. If hes crusin', hes crusin. besides that, Taz is going to have his right arm hanging off pretty soon.

     

    I was saying it was a bad move when it happened and Ill say it now. And no, I wouldnt complain if Demp got into trouble. Sometimes the stats can get in the way. In this case, they probably did.



    Actually, I think the reverse is true. They don't think. They manage by a preconceived plan -- get the starter through seventh then bring in the eighth-inning guy then the ninth-inning guy. No thinking or looking to see how the guy is pitching. Just go to the plan.

    Of course it's an overstatement but only to some extent. Certain pitchers are pushed but still ... it often seems like it never even crosses a manager's mind to let the pitcher even try for a complete game if his pitch count remains low and he's cruising.

    I understand the philosophy behind pitch counts and the use of specialty relievers late, so I'm not stuck in the 1970s. I'm not against either, but I sometimes think things have gone too far in the other direction.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Why Take Dempster Out after 88 pitches, 1 Run and an easy 7th inning?

    remember that it was the infamous Pedro game that ultimately got Grady fired. Ever since, for a sox manager, leaving a guy in too long is considered taboo and if anything Tito and Farrell take guys out way too soon. I agree, it's what's wrong with managers today. Protecting guys arms isn't done by limiting pitches, it's done by being smart in games. Pull a guy who is ineffective, don't pull a guy who is on a roll.

     

     

    In response to royf19's comment:

     

    In response to LloydDobler's comment:

     

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

     

     

    We're talking about a pitcher that is known by a lot of Sox fans as 'Dumpster', who came into the game sporting a 4.81 ERA and a 1.47 WHIP in his time in the AL.  Now suddenly he inspires all this confidence. 

     

     




    He was on tonight. I'd have had him start the 8th on a short leash with Taz warming. But I'm the first to acknowledge  Farrell knows his team better than I do.

     

     

     

     



    I agree. It's my pet peeve with the way the game is managed today. Unless the pitcher is considered an ace (or possibly a 2) managers really don't manage. If it's a close game and a pitcher goes seven innings, it doesn't matter what the pitch count is. They automatically go with the eighth-inning guy then the closer.

     

    I'm not blasting Farrell for the move. He's not unique in this regard. It's simply how the game is played today. But 88 pitches and cruisin -- in this case, I'd ratehr err in giving him the next inning.




     
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