Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July : The rebuttal to your McKeon article was that Beckett and his teammates were 20 yrs old and you once again did not respond to that. Why don't you READ, DIGEST, and RESPOND? Is that so difficult to do. Why are you followers on the forum all YANKEE Fans? WE have you figured out. It is not that difficult.
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    One AB in an interleague game tells you all you need to know about Beckett.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July:
    [QUOTE]While I don't agree with geo and others about how harmful Beckett's antics were to the team last September, the fact that Beckett did not learn from his "mistake" of "youth" is a point with merit. It does show something of Beckett's character, but my position is that even though somebody may or may not be a jerk of the field (or even in the clubhouse or on the field at times), it doesn't mean that they can not still be highly focused when playing and very helpful to a team seeking a ring. Reggie was jerk off the field, in the dugout, in the clubhouse and on the field, but he produced and led his team to a ring. Manny had his share of on and off the field issues, but helped us win 2 rings. Beckett has done some regrettable things (to me, maybe not to him), but he pitched like no other pitcher I have ever seen in a Sox uniform during a full playoff season. (2007: 4-0  1.20/0.700 WHIP with 35Ks & 2 BB in 30 IP) Better than Pedro, better than Roger, and even better than Schill's 2004 PO season. It wasn't a fluke. Beckett is a gamer. He shut down the Yanks in the 2003WS (16.1 IP  8 H  19K/5BB and a 1.10 ERA) and pitched great the whole 2003 playoffs.  I'm a firm believer that people don't change that much after a pretty young age. The guy was on pace to become one of the best alltime playoff pitchers until 2008 and 2009. I think he was pitching hurt those years, but I guess one could blame it on his conditioning. I suppose some people can take things for granted and coast once they get rich. I'm not saying I know what goes on inside Beckett's head, but I firmly believe he is still the same guy who rose to the occasion in 2003 and 2007. I wouldn't just give up on him for a few indiscretions. His actions effect on his teammates is totally unknown. I don't pretend that it had no effect, but many here are acting like it is a proven fact that his actions led to other players giving up or not playing hard. I fail to agree that even if a player knew a few teammates were in the clubhouse instead of routing for them to succeed that it would effect their performance. I accept that I could be wrong, but then again, I'm not categorically stating anything about what went on inside the minds of the team during the collapse.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    You make some valid points here Moon. i suppose that it is pure conjecture on my part that I don't see Beckett as a team player. I have never seen him get emotional or show any entusiasm whatsoever. Now, that could be just his personality, a-la Drew, but one thing that really hit home for me, was watching him hit during interleague play. His mind-set, (and I suppose it's more the norm now for many pitchers in the AL) is that they don't have to contribute at the plate, not their job. But he could at least look like he wants to hit, intead of taking three and sitting down, which I've see him do several times.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July:
    [QUOTE]Beckett clearly led in 2003 and 2007, but now he can't. Make sense? I think not.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Schilling was one whom led in 2007 .... and I am certain in 2003 players like Lowell, Conine, Rodriquez, and managers like Mckeon led the way....  

    Silly moon only looking at the stats again. A WSC in 03 and 07 must mean Beckett was a "leader" is that it? Your stats fail you again.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July : Schilling was one whom led in 2007 .... and I am certain in 2003 players like Lowell, Conine, Rodriquez, and managers like Mckeon led the way....   Silly moon only looking at the stats again. A WSC in 03 and 07 must mean Beckett was a "leader" is that it? Your stats fail you again.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    Leading is coming up big on the field when your team needs it the most.  Beckett certainly did that in Game 6 of the 03 WS and Game 5 of the 07 ALCS. 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    If you posters go out of your way to find flaws in your players then why not consider following another team. The oldtimers said " my team, right or wrong, my team. Would you want to trade Ty Cobb or Pete Rose because of their perceived image. Of course, the whiners might just be whining to liven up the forum / stir the pot. However if you stir the pot ALL OF THE TIME then in my book; you are trolling.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Camelwalk. Show Camelwalk's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July:
    [QUOTE]If you posters go out of your way to find flaws in your players then why not consider following another team. The oldtimers said " my team, right or wrong, my team. Would you want to trade Ty Cobb or Pete Rose because of their perceived image. Of course, the whiners might just be whining to liven up the forum / stir the pot. However if you stir the pot ALL OF THE TIME then in my book; you are trolling.
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    You are the lead troll on this forum and in no position to call insightful fans trolls.

    Again a question followed by a period, this is a glimpse into Pike's intelligence.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July:
    [QUOTE]The OP article link is all I have been saying since October, sadly some posters need to read it in a paper to pick up ideas as they are incapable of having an original contribution to the board.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    Right you are Burrito. However if you minimize the problems that the team has or may have then what will the dooms day / pessimist contingent in the forum do all winter long?
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Camelwalk. Show Camelwalk's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July : Right you are Burrito. However if you minimize the problems that the team has or may have then what will the dooms day / pessimist contingent in the forum do all winter long?
    Posted by UticaClub[/QUOTE]

    Nice job.  You correctly placed a question mark somewhere.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    Schilling was one whom led in 2007 .... and I am certain in 2003 players like Lowell, Conine, Rodriquez, and managers like Mckeon led the way....  

    Silly moon only looking at the stats again. A WSC in 03 and 07 must mean Beckett was a "leader" is that it? Your stats fail you again.

    Forget the stats. Go back and watch the games and tell me beckett wasn't a man on a mission...leading by example...rising to the occasion and totally demoralizing the opposition. He was a stud then, but suddenly is now a bum. I don't think people change that much, but I have no stats to back that up. 

    Tongue Out
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July:
    Funny why a Holy Cross graduate would bond with an idiot with such a low IQ.
    Posted by UticaClub


    It was a lyric Pike, you literally hade no idea what I said and just jumped to intelligence when you're the fool who makes statements and follows them with question marks and asks questions and follows them with periods.  I have a masters degree although I must admit your doctorate in trolling is impressive.

    The statement by Utica was not a question, and so, did not need a question mark. Just because the word "why" was in the sentence, does not mean it needs a "Q" mark.  .
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bunts. Show Bunts's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    The July Trade Deadline is always a roll of the dice and typcially requires you pony up your best prospects for a rent  a player. I'd rather see them spend beyond the LTax for someone now and keep their prospects, as we apparently don't have too many
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July:
    [QUOTE]The July Trade Deadline is always a roll of the dice and typcially requires you pony up your best prospects for a rent  a player. I'd rather see them spend beyond the LTax for someone now and keep their prospects, as we apparently don't have too many
    Posted by Bunts[/QUOTE]

    It's a tough choice.  It's also a roll of the dice making moves now that turn out to be unnecessary after the fact. The GM with the clearest crystal ball is the winner.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    if you dont think beckett is a selfish player and has a history of undermining his team with this behavior, then there isnt much more i can say to sway you...

    he did the same thing in Florida as he did last year in Boston...he hasnt changed one bit...he is still a child mentally and the worse part is his body is more like that of a forty something...what he can or once did on the mound is irrelevent...he needs to be traded because he is a cancer and given this luxury tax problem, a huge financial drain on our team for the next three years...given all these reasons why would you want to keep him???? is his 14 wins that important????  what about his even year drop offs???? he hasnt exactly been consistent..if you are going to bring up 07, then we shouldve kept Tito, and still have Tek/wake on the roster...Beckett will be moved this year...he is an ingrate, overpaid, and will not do what we expect an ace to do....mark these words
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    I marked them, and I do agree with you on the selfishness/and behavior parts. But unless he can be replaced with something similar, then he stays a Sox. They already are up against it with maybe their weakest start of season staff in a long time. Lester and an injured Buchholz are really all the team has as possible sure things other than Beckett, who is a sure thing to be among the team leaders in several pitching categories. I despise the guy at times, and admire him at others. He's a piece of work, but find me somebody better than him at a No. 3. Then trade him. Or trade him for a superior pitcher on another team. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    Dammit Cater, does Georom have to push a fried chicken drumstick into your ear to make you realize how complete an ingrate Beckett is?
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July : You make some valid points here Moon. i suppose that it is pure conjecture on my part that I don't see Beckett as a team player. I have never seen him get emotional or show any entusiasm whatsoever. Now, that could be just his personality, a-la Drew, but one thing that really hit home for me, was watching him hit during interleague play. His mind-set, (and I suppose it's more the norm now for many pitchers in the AL) is that they don't have to contribute at the plate, not their job. But he could at least look like he wants to hit, intead of taking three and sitting down, which I've see him do several times.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]

    I have seen Beckett show plenty of emotion.  He is pretty good about channeling that emotion while he's pitching in the middle of an inning, but he's right up there with the best of them with fist pumps and dropping f bombs after a big defensive play or a big 3rd out in an inning.

    As far as taking 3 pitches and sitting down, maybe he was instructed by his manager to do so?  That said, I've also seen Beckett hit a couple of dingers against the Phillies.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July:
    [QUOTE]The July Trade Deadline is always a roll of the dice and typcially requires you pony up your best prospects for a rent  a player. I'd rather see them spend beyond the LTax for someone now and keep their prospects, as we apparently don't have too many
    Posted by Bunts[/QUOTE]

    I agree.  If you can acquire a decent pitcher for just money over prospects and money, I almost always prefer going that route.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July : You make some valid points here Moon. i suppose that it is pure conjecture on my part that I don't see Beckett as a team player. I have never seen him get emotional or show any entusiasm whatsoever. Now, that could be just his personality, a-la Drew, but one thing that really hit home for me, was watching him hit during interleague play. His mind-set, (and I suppose it's more the norm now for many pitchers in the AL) is that they don't have to contribute at the plate, not their job. But he could at least look like he wants to hit, intead of taking three and sitting down, which I've see him do several times.
    Posted by Alibiike[/QUOTE]


    You're right:

    Pure Conjecture
    Speculation
    BS

    Many had the same impressions about Joe DiMaggio
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from cgmiles75. Show cgmiles75's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    I just can't understand the "trade Beckett" stuff. I've heard all the arguments against him and frankly agree with many of them, but the fact remains he's one of only three legitimate starters we have. Trading him now only makes sense if you want to remake the roster and are willing to sacrifice the season to do it. I, for one, am not in favor of that (although the FO kind of seems like they are). Even in that case, though, trading him now still makes little sense, as his value has been diminished by September. If anything, hope he has a good first half, then trade him to a contender for prospects at the deadline if we're sellers by then (which I fear we very well may be).
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July:
    [QUOTE]I just can't understand the "trade Beckett" stuff. I've heard all the arguments against him and frankly agree with many of them, but the fact remains he's one of only three legitimate starters we have. Trading him now only makes sense if you want to remake the roster and are willing to sacrifice the season to do it. I, for one, am not in favor of that (although the FO kind of seems like they are). Even in that case, though, trading him now still makes little sense, as his value has been diminished by September. If anything, hope he has a good first half, then trade him to a contender for prospects at the deadline if we're sellers by then (which I fear we very well may be).
    Posted by cgmiles75[/QUOTE]

    Would you trade him straight up for Matt Garza and save  approx 10 million????
    Who wouldnt do that?
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from cgmiles75. Show cgmiles75's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    Of course I would, but why in the world would Theo do that? Like I said, we wouldn't get anything for him now that would offset the immediate impact from taking him out of the rotation. There's nobody left that needs rotation help desperately enough (other than us). We could maybe get decent prospects and save money to make a run at Oswalt, but that's still a net loss for this year. Maybe if we got prospects in return for him we could flip for Garza, but that still seems like a pipe-dream.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    You know this is something I've spoken repeatedly about here. You either charge over the luxury cap boldly with a real plan to win this yr, OR you go conservative and allow our 2013 cap to fall to 17% while the Yanks rises to 50% (already a done deal). Meandering slightly over the cap and allowing next yrs rate to rise to 40% would be asinine. But asinine is all I see from management these days, so I'm assuming that's the course they're gonna take. Prediction time based on all the evidence at this time: Lucchino will never be allowed to succeed this yr and will not be offered a contract, with this as the convenient reason. Henry will sell the team within 3 yrs for a nifty profit, and will ride off into the sunset muttering his hatred of all things Boston as he goes. Ya heard it here 1st.





    In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July:
    [QUOTE]Unless of course, you're looking to go into a rebuilding, which doesn't make sense when we could be losing 3 vital parts of our offense in the next 2 years (Ells, Youk, Papi). An interesting case could be made to look at 2013 as "the year" and scrap anyone who isn't signed through 2013, even if it meant paying some of their slaries: Papi   ($11-14M)  Scutaro ($6M) Jenks  ($6M) Dice-K ($8.7M AVV, but $10M for 2012)  We'd be under the tax limit and decrese the percent tax if we go over in 2013. We'd get some prospects for these guys. We could still win in 2012 without all of these guys. We'll have over $30M in cap space going into 2013 with a promising FA class ahead. I'm not saying I am for this plan, but it does have some merit, especially to those fans who think we have no chance unless we spend $200M this year. If we look beyond 2013, there's also the possibility of dealing Ellsbury and Youk this July and shoot for 2013 and/or 2014.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July:
    [QUOTE]You know this is something I've spoken repeatedly about here. You either charge over the luxury cap boldly with a real plan to win this yr, OR you go conservative and allow our 2013 cap to fall to 17% while the Yanks rises to 50% (already a done deal). Meandering slightly over the cap and allowing next yrs rate to rise to 40% would be asinine. But asinine is all I see from management these days, so I'm assuming that's the course they're gonna take. Prediction time based on all the evidence at this time: Lucchino will never be allowed to succeed this yr and will not be offered a contract, with this as the convenient reason. Henry will sell the team within 3 yrs for a nifty profit, and will ride off into the sunset muttering his hatred of all things Boston as he goes. Ya heard it here 1st. In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July :
    Posted by Teakus[/QUOTE]

    I agree, it should be either/or, not go over slightly and lose anyway.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Teakus. Show Teakus's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    We each see it so clearly Moon, which is why it's soooo frustrating to watch this pre season in action. Bob Ryan alluded to the heavy FA's available next yr. on T.V. , and openly wondered if the Sox were behaving "like a small market club" because they were planning to go for it next season instead of this one. But there is no way they go hog wild on free agents next yr if they are saddled with a 40% luxury tax hit. They simply have to get this yrs payroll under $179 million, dropping next yrs tax to 17%. It's literally the only smart move available. If Henry is chafing under this seasons 30% luxury tax hit, how do you think he'll respond to next seasons 40%? But to me the scariest thing is not only do I see no indication that they "get it" , I see no indication they even know what "it" is!! Pick a path already and stay the course. The Nation will understand a coherent strategy at work when, or if, it ever sees one.





    In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July : I agree, it should be either/or, not go over slightly and lose anyway.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

        
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July

    In Response to Re: Why the Red Sox only need enough pitching to get to July:
    [QUOTE]We each see it so clearly Moon, which is why it's soooo frustrating to watch this pre season in action. Bob Ryan alluded to the heavy FA's available next yr. on T.V. , and openly wondered if the Sox were behaving "like a small market club" because they were planning to go for it next season instead of this one. But there is no way they go hog wild on free agents next yr if they are saddled with a 40% luxury tax hit. They simply have to get this yrs payroll under $179 million, dropping next yrs tax to 17%. It's literally the only smart move available. If Henry is chafing under this seasons 30% luxury tax hit, how do you think he'll respond to next seasons 40%? But to me the scariest thing is not only do I see no indication that they "get it" , I see no indication they even know what "it" is!! Pick a path already and stay the course. The Nation will understand a coherent strategy at work when, or if, it ever sees one. 

    I assume you mean by botching the Papi arb thing and keeping Scutaro on board. (Mixed messages)

    I think it would be hard for Sox management to say what their plan really is: Keep us competitive enough (or at least appear like they are trying to) for 2012 and make a big push for 2013. Remember the last time they used the wrod "bridge"? 

    I think letting Papi go next winter will be easier for fans to swallow when we sign a couple big ticket players next winter.

    Teak, you know there's a good chance the Sox can spend big next winter, put us in a position to be the favorites, AND still stay under the tax limit.

    We lose enough salary (mostly players that can easily be replaced) to sign 2-3 very good players or 2 top ones.

    Papi ($12-16M)
    Dice-K ($8.7M)
    Jenks  ($6M)
    Scutaro ($6M)
    Shoppach ($1.5M)
    Total: $34-38M

    Maybe even let Youk walk and pay $1M or keep him at $13M 
    (save: $10.3M AVV) bringing the total to $44 to 48M.

    If Sox management really was looking to 2013, they could have let Papi and Scutty walk and looked to get players that could help us in 2013 at a low cost (and maybe 2012 as well). 



     

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