WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

    WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    I really don't get why people want to trade Ells because of what he might fetch in a few years. Is it not the point to keep young quality proven talent on the team? And if he keeps producing like he did this year, then you pay him what he is worth don't you.

    If you are willing to pay so called proven players like a Crawford who has not yet proven himself in Boston(but he will), then why would you not pay a boston player who has proven himself over 2-3 seasons?

    And don't get me wrong, loved all that Youk has done and meant for the Sox, but he at 33? has to be considered as trade bait while he still has tade value. He has missed lots of games over 2 yrs. He has expressed interest in playing for the Reds. And he might be part of the clubhouse problem. Why would you not put his name out there. Maybe the Sox can get a pitcher? or right fielder?

    So, if the choice was to keep or trade Ells or Youk what would you do?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    In Response to WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK:
    [QUOTE]I really don't get why people want to trade Ells because of what he might fetch in a few years. Is it not the point to keep young quality proven talent on the team? And if he keeps producing like he did this year, then you pay him what he is worth don't you. If you are willing to pay so called proven players like a Crawford who has not yet proven himself in Boston(but he will), then why would you not pay a boston player who has proven himself over 2-3 seasons? And don't get me wrong, loved all that Youk has done and meant for the Sox, but he at 33? has to be considered as trade bait while he still has tade value. He has missed lots of games over 2 yrs. He has expressed interest in playing for the Reds. And he might be part of the clubhouse problem. Why would you not put his name out there. Maybe the Sox can get a pitcher? or right fielder? So, if the choice was to keep or trade Ells or Youk what would you do?
    Posted by antiqueman1[/QUOTE]
    I would be more likely to trade Jacoby Ellsbury because of his high current trade value and less likely to trade Kevin Youkilis because of his low current trade value.

    If I were in charge, Ellsbury and Youkilis likely would be in the 2012 Opening Day lineup for the Red Sox.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    I get the idea of his high trade value, but who takes over for Ells production, Crawford? Then you need a center fielder and a right fielder?  And the Sox would just get older if they lose Ells but keep Youk.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    In Response to Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK:
    [QUOTE]I get the idea of his high trade value, but who takes over for Ells production, Crawford? Then you need a center fielder and a right fielder?  And the Sox would just get older if they lose Ells but keep Youk.
    Posted by antiqueman1[/QUOTE]
    Entering the 2011 season, Carl Crawford was projected to outperform Jacoby Ellsbury by a substantial margin. Crawford is unlikely to match Ellsbury's 2011 numbers, but the Red Sox, who led the majors in runs in 2011, might need to trade hitting for pitching.

    It might be a good year to see whether Ryan Kalish and Josh Reddick will sink or swim in centerfield and rightfield.

    But, again, I see Ellsbury and Youkilis in the 2012 Opening Day lineup.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    In Response to Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK : Entering the 2011 season, Carl Crawford was projected to outperform Jacoby Ellsbury by a substantial margin. Crawford is unlikely to match Ellsbury's 2011 numbers, but the Red Sox, who led the majors in runs in 2011, might need to trade hitting for pitching. It might be a good year to see whether Ryan Kalish and Josh Reddick will sink or swim in centerfield and rightfield. But, again, I see Ellsbury and Youkilis in the 2012 Opening Day lineup.
    Posted by hill55[/QUOTE]

    Which I would be fine with in the end.

    I wonder if Youk would even have interest in being a DH/slash utility spell infielder? Lots suggesting that role for Youk. It would give the Sox flexibility that big Papi does not. It will be one interesting winter. Can't wait to see the opening day lineup.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    In Response to Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK : Which I would be fine with in the end. I wonder if Youk would even have interest in being a DH/slash utility spell infielder? Lots suggesting that role for Youk. It would give the Sox flexibility that big Papi does not. It will be one interesting winter. Can't wait to see the opening day lineup.
    Posted by antiqueman1[/QUOTE]
    I would go with Kevin Youkilis at DH and hope to collect two drafts if David Ortiz declines arbitration and signs elsewhere. I like Ortiz, but the Red Sox need to keep a close eye on replenishing the farm system.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from hankwilliams. Show hankwilliams's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    And if he keeps producing like he did this year, then you pay him what he is worth don't you.

    No, you don't. Crawford is locked for life. Career averages always win out on players in twenties and early 30s if sample size is large. 

    If you are willing to pay so called proven players like a Crawford who has not yet proven himself in Boston(but he will), then why would you not pay a boston player who has proven himself over 2-3 seasons?

    Ellsbury was not impressive overall in 2008, better in 2009 and MIA in 2010. His trade value is truly a windfall and will never be hire. No way would any smart Gm write off Crawford contract and pay 12 to 14M to bid on Ellsbury in FA.

    Red Sox need to trade Ellsbury for Kemp, because Felix and Verlander and the few can't miss pitching aces are not going to do any trade deal that doesn't exact a heavy toll way beyond the value it nets.

    Kemp (1 year control 10 to 12M) is the man to extend, not Ellsbury ( 2 years control 10 to 14M) , and Upton is less likely to be trade on as good a terms because of Upton lower contract costs control. Dodgers will do the deal for financial reasons and another young player or two that the Red Sox do not need for the future. Middlebrooks, Ranaudo, Kalish, Reddick, Iglesias, Lavarway, Barnes, Jacobs and Bradley would be the only farm hands who wouldd not be part of the deal.

    Ellsbury, plus, if the Dodgers require more, Dodgers pick of 1, or 2, if they want 3 players, from their choice from:

    Lowrie
    and anyone on the farm except:

    Middlebrooks, Ranaudo, Kalish, Reddick, Iglesias, Lavarway, Barnes, Jacobs and Bradley

    Red Sox losing Buch and Lackey hurt was what taxed out the pen. There is no value market for quality starting pitching. It is false to assume that the Red Sox can't improve an offense that was strong overall in the aggregate but which is only one superstar RH bat away from being able to take down even the hottest pitchers most of the time.

    Rotation:

    Lester
    Beckett
    Buchholz
    Aceves

    and 4 or 5 more from 2 or 3 FA 1 year 1M incentive deals from list of veteran castoffs:
     
    Justin Duchscherer (minor league contract offer for major league spot 1M up to .5I)
    Jeff Francis (major league contract offer 1M incentives 2K up to 2M for />12 starts)
    Wang (minor league contract offer for major league spot 1M up to 2M for />12 starts) 
    Bedard (major league contract offer 1.5M incentives 2K up to 2M for />12 starts)
    Miller (major league contract offer 1M incentives 5K for />59IP + up to 1M > 12 starts) 
    Oswalt (major league contract offer 1M incentives 2K up to 2M for /> 12 starts)
    Garcia (major league contract offer 1M incentives 2K up to 2M for /> 12 starts)
    Jackson (2 YR major league contract offer 1.5M incentives 2K up to 2M for /> 12 starts)
    Buehrle  (2 YR major league contract offer 3M incentives 2K up to 2M for /> 12 starts
    Wilson (bluff and pass on this long term inflated Yankee spiked contract)

    Plus AAA call-ups Doubrant and/or Weiland if they are not traded

    Miller can work out of pen for his major league contract.

    All offers accepted are contingent upon 24 hour owner confirmation period to allow for withdrawal if 2 or 3 spots are already under contract and filled before initial offer acceptance.

    Red Sox would then look to get good years from Beckett, Lester and Buch and servicable starter IP from Aceves and one other starter from the 5 or 6 other starter depth profiles. Then with Pedroia, AGon, Kemp, Ortiz and Youk would look to simply wear down Wilson or Sabathia or Price or Shields et al.

    Red Sox struggled at home more than normal because of Inepstein failure to get a superstar OF RH bat in hitters park Fenway. AGon and Kemp (immediate and long term) would form a critical mass that would simply poison even the best opposing pitching over long season or long post season series.  

    Lineup:

    Crawford
    Pedroia
    AGon
    Kemp
    Ortiz or Youk
    Youk or Ortiz (Offer Ortiz 11M to 12.5M + mutual option 8M buyout 2M)
    Kalish or Reddick
    Hernandez  (1 year MLB contract offer 3 to 4M player option 3-4M buyout 2M)
    Scutaro or Aviles  

    Bench: Saltry (offer 1M or go to arbitration) or Lavarnway
                   Reddick (if Kalish starts spring in AAA then Reddick starts RF and Mac or other RH vet signed to minor league contract)
                   Aviles
                   Miles (offer major league contract 1M) or best lefty vetran UIF/OF value

       
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    Id put Brentz on that list of untouchables to softy..got a feeling about that kid...
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from bosoxmal. Show bosoxmal's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    I can't imagine what some of you are smoking. Trade Ellsbury? A re-run of the Ruth to New York deal. Ellsbury will be a multiple-year MVP, and the league's leading hitter for some years to come. Throw away that stuff and/or get a new pair of glasses.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from antiqueman1. Show antiqueman1's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    In Response to Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK:
    [QUOTE]I can't imagine what some of you are smoking. Trade Ellsbury? A re-run of the Ruth to New York deal. Ellsbury will be a multiple-year MVP, and the league's leading hitter for some years to come. Throw away that stuff and/or get a new pair of glasses.
    Posted by bosoxmal[/QUOTE]

    Bosoxmal. I assume they are strictly looking at his trade value and not what he means and brings to the team. I agree with you. Trading Ells in insane. Might as well put Pedroia out there too then. Crazy. The speed, the steals, the homers, the hitting, etc. Who replaces Ells in the line-up and on the field? I have yet to hear the answers for that one. Getting a pitcher for Ells is just not worth it. With Lester, Beckett, Buch, Aceves? that is not a bad rotation.

    Yes, they need another pitcher for sure, but not at the expense of Ells. Sorry.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from jackyldo. Show jackyldo's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    Will Els match  2011    again ?
    Will Els leave Boston after 2012  as a free agent ?

    Do his skills and tools add up to what Boras will shop him for ?

    Last year    you'd get nothing  as he was off an injury.

    This year he'd  bring a strong return  ..

    Next year he might  be gone with no return..

    Think future and see what he'd bring..
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from coachzap. Show coachzap's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    You have been running Ellsbury out of town since he came up HankSofty. He used to be nothing more than a 4th OFer, peashooter, Jitterbug. Now he is good enought to trade for Kemp? Classic. You sir are a complete fool.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rutland76. Show Rutland76's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    Antiqueman, who on the forum is talking about trading Ellsbury ( besides Softlaw)?
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    Nobody "wants" to trade and lose Ellsbury (except maybe the silly clown), but some of us want more than 2 draft picks after the 2013 season. I'm not for trading Ellsbury just for the sake of trading him, but if we can land a top young pitcher with 3 or more years of team control, I will listen very hard.

    Trading Youk makes some sense if we keep Papi, but it would just further enlarge our offense and power problem from the right side of the plate.

    This team will not win in 2012 if Ellsbury gets even better than 2011, unless we upgrade our pitching staff. Buch coming back will help. Dice-K after July might help. Some "additions by subtractions" might help, but if you guys think we can hit the lottery like the Yanks did with Colon and Garcia this year, I'd rather we just shoot for 2013. It's more likely we get a Penny & Smoltz than a Bartolo & Freddie. It doesn't look like we can get a very starter vis free agency this year, so a trade seems like the best way to upgrade the staff from the top or middle, rather than the bottom. You just can't get great young starters without giving something up. We might be able to get a #3-4 slot guy with a prospects and lesser player combination (Lowrie, Salty, DMac...), but we've just recently traded away some of our best prospects.

    Our offense was tops in MLB last year. Our pitching lacked depth. I have always thought it best to replenish the staff almost every year from the top or at least near the top. It didn't work with Lackey, but it makes more sense to me to try for a very good staer and a couple "projects" than to sign 3-5 projects and hope 2 stick. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Immortal9. Show Immortal9's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    Hey Ben -

    Youk + Reddick to the Giants for Matt Cain... Sign Cuddyer, bring back Papi, let Tek walk and begin conversations with Boras to lock up Jake!
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from gbman87603. Show gbman87603's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    In Response to Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK:
    [QUOTE]Hey Ben - Youk + Reddick to the Giants for Matt Cain... Sign Cuddyer, bring back Papi, let Tek walk and begin conversations with Boras to lock up Jake!
    Posted by Immortal9[/QUOTE]

    Pure example of over valuing talent on the team you root for. Thats a ridiculous trade.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from cglassanos. Show cglassanos's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    Only way Ellsbury gets traded is for F.Hernandez and I don't see the Mariners even considering that, let alone the Red Sox.

    Red Sox are going to sign Ellsbury to a long-term deal before he reaches FA despite the huge payroll committment over and above what they already have.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    It's funny.....if Ellsbury played for another team I Guarantee that at least ONE person who wants to trade him would want to trade for him.  Ellsbury is looking like the player we thought Crawford would be, a guy who can hit with speed but will develop power as he gets older.  If that trend continues he will be a valuable player well into his 30's (granted he stays healthy).  He's the type of player you give that money too.

    just like a AH, everyone has an opinion.  My opinion is to keep Ellsbury for the next two years, he will be cheaper (even with nice arbitration raises) than what we would pay for his production on the open market.  If he puts together another 30 HR 100RBI 40SB season or two...then I say you pay then man, because that is the man who is worth it.

    Sure you could probably get a lot of good prospects for him, half of which won't pan out, and possibly even none (remember who was traded for Mark Teixeira)

    I'm not saying my idea is better than anyone elses.....just the way I would like to see things happen. 
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rutland76. Show Rutland76's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    It seems ridiculous to start a thread about trading Ellsbury when you say that the idea is insane and only one poster in a forum of 300 has suggested trading him. Yet you ask the other 299 posters "Why Trade Ellsbury?"

    No Comprendo.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from gbman87603. Show gbman87603's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    In Response to Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK:
    [QUOTE]It's funny.....if Ellsbury played for another team I Guarantee that at least ONE person who wants to trade him would want to trade for him.  Ellsbury is looking like the player we thought Crawford would be, a guy who can hit with speed but will develop power as he gets older.  If that trend continues he will be a valuable player well into his 30's (granted he stays healthy).  He's the type of player you give that money too. just like a AH, everyone has an opinion.  My opinion is to keep Ellsbury for the next two years, he will be cheaper (even with nice arbitration raises) than what we would pay for his production on the open market.  If he puts together another 30 HR 100RBI 40SB season or two...then I say you pay then man, because that is the man who is worth it. Sure you could probably get a lot of good prospects for him, half of which won't pan out, and possibly even none (remember who was traded for Mark Teixeira) I'm not saying my idea is better than anyone elses.....just the way I would like to see things happen. 
    Posted by ctredsoxfanhugh[/QUOTE]

    Ellsbury went WAY beyond what anyone would think Crawford could do. Crawford is 30 yrs old and does not have and will never have the power that Ells showed this season. That said, say Ellsbury has 2 more seasons that stay close to this season numbers wise, he will be 30 years old.....isnt the idea to pay for future performance and not past accomplishments? Will the sox really want to give yet ANOTHER 7 year contract that will end with the player in his late 30's? They are stuck with Crawford, and his defense is not being utilized unless he plays center. In that case doesnt it make sense to involve Ellsbury in a deal that lands a true #1 young ace? Dont get me wrong, I like Ellsbury and wont be mad if he stays, but I think a legit case is to be made to involve him in a blockbuster deal.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    Trading our best player from last season would be too stupid for words.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from gbman87603. Show gbman87603's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    In Response to Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK:
    [QUOTE]Trading our best player from last season would be too stupid for words.
    Posted by LloydDobler[/QUOTE]

    Not that I am saying I WANT him to be traded, but if it brought back a young ace, it wouldnt be stupid. I am very interested to see how he performs next season. I dont think its a slam dunk that he hits 30+ HR and drives in 100 RBI again.....it cant be because he doesnt have a track record yet.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    In Response to Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK:
    [QUOTE]Trading our best player from last season would be too stupid for words.
    Posted by LloydDobler[/QUOTE]
    An interesting new management theory: Trade your best player because he has a  " high trade value. " Of course he has a high trade value, he is your best player !!!!
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rutland76. Show Rutland76's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    In Response to Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK : Ellsbury went WAY beyond what anyone would think Crawford could do. Crawford is 30 yrs old and does not have and will never have the power that Ells showed this season. That said, say Ellsbury has 2 more seasons that stay close to this season numbers wise, he will be 30 years old.....isnt the idea to pay for future performance and not past accomplishments? Will the sox really want to give yet ANOTHER 7 year contract that will end with the player in his late 30's? They are stuck with Crawford, and his defense is not being utilized unless he plays center. In that case doesnt it make sense to involve Ellsbury in a deal that lands a true #1 young ace? Dont get me wrong, I like Ellsbury and wont be mad if he stays, but I think a legit case is to be made to involve him in a blockbuster deal.
    Posted by gbman87603[/QUOTE]

    Bill James did an analysis that concluded that players that are speedy / fast age well and he thought that signing Crawford to a long contract where he would be 35 yrs. old in his final year would be reasonable.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK

    In Response to Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: WHY trade ELLS again......and not YOUK : An interesting new management theory: Trade your best player because he has a  " high trade value. " Of course he has a high trade value, he is your best player !!!!
    Posted by dgalehouse[/QUOTE]
    Exactly. Don't get me wrong ... if the Tigers called and said, "Hey, how about Verlander for Ellsbury straight up," I'd go for it. But anything short of that type of deal, no way. The kid is performing the way I envisioned back in '07 ... actually, even better.
    That said, it would be unrealistic for any of us to expect him to automatically match last season. That was a special year that might not ever happen again. But if he goes, say, .310-20-80, who wouldn't take that out of a lead-off guy with a fine glove and the ability to steal 50-70 bases? Well, other than Softy, or whatever he is now.
     

Share