why would we want give up our future

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from bigdog1. Show bigdog1's posts

    why would we want give up our future

    I ask my fellow posters?  Why would we give up our core young player's that are making ther way to the Red Sox for stop gap player's.  The Red Sox need a core of young hungry player's to build upon.  All I have read recently on this board is we should start trading our young talent!!!  I say,"NO WAY!" to this idea.  If we struggle for a year, then lets get it over with!!  If we don't develope our own core of player's we will be on the outside looking in for a long time.  Ben Stay with the plan to develope and then we can go out and get what spare parts that we need.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    The lack of detail behind your post makes a response problematic.

    If you're saying we shouldn't trade Barnes for ARod, I agree.

    If you're saying we shouldn't trade Renaudo for Trout, then I disagree.

    Further, you need to define 'core' players.  Is it just the big-3, or are fringey prospects like Brentz now defined as 'core'?

    As a general rule, I like holding onto prospects.  But there is no chance to cover every opening with your own prospects.  Then it becomes a matter of trading or signing a FA.  You can trade someone like Brentz for a decent 1B, or you can sign someone like Pujols to a crippling contract.

    The you have to think about control.  Most prospects give you 5 good years if you're lucky.  So would you trade 5 years of Brentz for 3 years of Ike Davis, knowing that there i a really good chance Davis succeeds, and no guarantee of Brentz even being as good as Davis.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soxdog67. Show Soxdog67's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    In response to bigdog1's comment:

    I ask my fellow posters?  Why would we give up our core young player's that are making ther way to the Red Sox for stop gap player's.  The Red Sox need a core of young hungry player's to build upon.  All I have read recently on this board is we should start trading our young talent!!!  I say,"NO WAY!" to this idea.  If we struggle for a year, then lets get it over with!!  If we don't develope our own core of player's we will be on the outside looking in for a long time.  Ben Stay with the plan to develope and then we can go out and get what spare parts that we need.




    I think you need to put this into context bigdog...if you are trading those youngsters for major league league players than that's your reason! As I mentioned in another topic, I'd be more than willing to give up a Barnes and Brentz for a kid like Brett Anderson, or possibly Jarrod Parker.

    In other words, trading prospects for major league ready YOUNG players should be a strategy not frowned upon.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    i also doubt if we give up our top prospects it would be for "stop-gaps" the whole point of getting stop-gap players is to fill in until your top prospects are MLB ready. so trading away a top prospect for a player to bridge the gap to your top prospects is......counter-productive.

    if we trade our top talent away then its likely we will be getting  a real good player with multiple years of control in return.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    In response to mef429's comment:

    i also doubt if we give up our top prospects it would be for "stop-gaps" the whole point of getting stop-gap players is to fill in until your top prospects are MLB ready. so trading away a top prospect for a player to bridge the gap to your top prospects is......counter-productive.

    if we trade our top talent away then its likely we will be getting  a real good player with multiple years of control in return.




    exactly mef... i think people are suggesting our prospects when names like Upton, Andrus etc., are mentioned.

    You certainly dont trade good young controlable players for 1 or 2 year stop-gaps.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from boborielly224. Show boborielly224's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    In response to bigdog1's comment:

    I ask my fellow posters?  Why would we give up our core young player's that are making ther way to the Red Sox for stop gap player's.  The Red Sox need a core of young hungry player's to build upon.  All I have read recently on this board is we should start trading our young talent!!!  I say,"NO WAY!" to this idea.  If we struggle for a year, then lets get it over with!!  If we don't develope our own core of player's we will be on the outside looking in for a long time.  Ben Stay with the plan to develope and then we can go out and get what spare parts that we need and exttra innings.




    I am thinking there will be a trade soon. I would like to see Gordon in left field, Ellsbury in CF either sweeney nava sands playing RF. Once Gordon is traded to the sox work on a reasonable contract to keep him. From this point sign Youk to a one year deal to back up Middlebrooks and Gomez , Youk can still get to play proper amt. of games with this role with rest time plus he can be use for late innings replacement when the game is close.

    If the rumours are strong about Jason Bay can get sign for a one year he can play the same role for the OF. Bay playing back up will be better for his rehab and half way through the season Farrell and company will see if Jason is recovered or finished.

    Who do we give up for Gordon -  Lavarnway is one peice to start talks but apparently KC wants a starter. Lavarnway and Doubront will most likely get this deal done or get KC's attention.

    If Cherington pulls this deal off sign Haren to replace Doubront.


    Sounds easy from me who is just playing Mr GM from the couch. Just letting you know that i would like to see Gordon in a sox uniform.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    Who do we give up for Gordon -  Lavarnway is one peice to start talks but apparently KC wants a starter. Lavarnway and Doubront will most likely get this deal done or get KC's attention.

    If Cherington pulls this deal off sign Haren to replace Doubront.

    That's basically what I think a lot of fans think of when giving up prospects.  We give up 5 years of Doubront for 3 of Gordon, with the possibility of draft comp at the end.  It's mostly a matter of how many wins from Gordon at what $$$ versus what you'd get from Doubront.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from seabeachfred. Show seabeachfred's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    Who do we give up for Gordon -  Lavarnway is one peice to start talks but apparently KC wants a starter. Lavarnway and Doubront will most likely get this deal done or get KC's attention.

    If Cherington pulls this deal off sign Haren to replace Doubront.

    That's basically what I think a lot of fans think of when giving up prospects.  We give up 5 years of Doubront for 3 of Gordon, with the possibility of draft comp at the end.  It's mostly a matter of how many wins from Gordon at what $$$ versus what you'd get from Doubront.



    Gordon is a lefthanded hitter and if y ou pair him with Ellsbury and a first baseman like LaRoche, Morneau or Davis, combine that with Ortiz and Salty and we have the same problem we had in 2011---to da#n lefthanded, and in a division with a plethora of solid southpaw pitchers that is fatal.  I would pass on Gordon unless Ells is traded---and keep this in mind:  JBjr is also a l efthanded hitter.  We play in Fenway Park for half our games....we need RH hitters with sock.  A few lefties fine but the majority of our lineup should be righthanded.  Besides, too many LH hitters have trouble with with lefty pitchers.

    I would sign Ross and Hunter for the OF and Ike Davis for 1B.  That way we don't get too lefthanded.  Of course, we need two pitchers too.  I wonder if Haren could be gotten for a reasonable price?

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    In response to seabeachfred's comment:

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    Who do we give up for Gordon -  Lavarnway is one peice to start talks but apparently KC wants a starter. Lavarnway and Doubront will most likely get this deal done or get KC's attention.

    If Cherington pulls this deal off sign Haren to replace Doubront.

    That's basically what I think a lot of fans think of when giving up prospects.  We give up 5 years of Doubront for 3 of Gordon, with the possibility of draft comp at the end.  It's mostly a matter of how many wins from Gordon at what $$$ versus what you'd get from Doubront.



    Gordon is a lefthanded hitter and if y ou pair him with Ellsbury and a first baseman like LaRoche, Morneau or Davis, combine that with Ortiz and Salty and we have the same problem we had in 2011---to da#n lefthanded, and in a division with a plethora of solid southpaw pitchers that is fatal.  I would pass on Gordon unless Ells is traded---and keep this in mind:  JBjr is also a l efthanded hitter.  We play in Fenway Park for half our games....we need RH hitters with sock.  A few lefties fine but the majority of our lineup should be righthanded.  Besides, too many LH hitters have trouble with with lefty pitchers.

    I would sign Ross and Hunter for the OF and Ike Davis for 1B.  That way we don't get too lefthanded.  Of course, we need two pitchers too.  I wonder if Haren could be gotten for a reasonable price?

     

     




    Good points Fred. We need the right mix of RHH and LHH. Id rather be more RH than LH considering the park we play 81 games in. Although guys like laroche that have that inside-out swing that would be good in Fenway should also be considered too..

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    In an ideal world one uses the farm to leverage the future needs with the present shortfalls on the major league roster. Our current ML roster lacks two very crucial pieces. Pieces that aren't currently in our system or rather projectable with certainty. That's two "impact middle of the order bats" players that hit good pitching, entering thier primes that a team can build the rest of the lineup around (Manny & Ortiz circa 2003-2007 or guys Nomar & Mo Vaugh of the late 90's, Lynn & Rice circa 75 to 80 etc). Gonzalez and Youk were supposed to be those guys for the current roster, both are now elsewhere. Today the middle of our line-up is Pedrioa & Ortiz....

    Another missing link that also is part of the championship formula is a true staff leader. A top of the rotation starter that pitches big, in big games. One that when he takes the ball. The team stands tall, knowing that today, we're a lock to win...Longborg-Tiant-Eckersley-Clemens-Pedro-Schilling-Beckett-Lester?...End of the day if that's not Lester, than any number of prospects totaling 5 are worth sacrificing to aquire such a talent. Including Lester himself....

    The final piece is a shutdown closer....not worth selling the farm for, but worth every penny to aquire on the open market a position that until we signed Foulke and then groomed Papelbon for was often and after thought by most of the previous administrations. 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from bigdog1. Show bigdog1's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    Guy's I was relating more to our top prospects of Bogets, JBJ,Barns and Owens.  Sure I would trade a fringe prospect but most of the player's that the other teams want are our top prospects. 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    In response to seabeachfred's comment:

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    Who do we give up for Gordon -  Lavarnway is one peice to start talks but apparently KC wants a starter. Lavarnway and Doubront will most likely get this deal done or get KC's attention.

    If Cherington pulls this deal off sign Haren to replace Doubront.

    That's basically what I think a lot of fans think of when giving up prospects.  We give up 5 years of Doubront for 3 of Gordon, with the possibility of draft comp at the end.  It's mostly a matter of how many wins from Gordon at what $$$ versus what you'd get from Doubront.



    Gordon is a lefthanded hitter and if y ou pair him with Ellsbury and a first baseman like LaRoche, Morneau or Davis, combine that with Ortiz and Salty and we have the same problem we had in 2011---to da#n lefthanded, and in a division with a plethora of solid southpaw pitchers that is fatal.  I would pass on Gordon unless Ells is traded---and keep this in mind:  JBjr is also a l efthanded hitter.  We play in Fenway Park for half our games....we need RH hitters with sock.  A few lefties fine but the majority of our lineup should be righthanded.  Besides, too many LH hitters have trouble with with lefty pitchers.

    I would sign Ross and Hunter for the OF and Ike Davis for 1B.  That way we don't get too lefthanded.  Of course, we need two pitchers too.  I wonder if Haren could be gotten for a reasonable price?

     

     



    The L/R has an intuitive appeal to it, but I don't think it's true.  Even if we were lefty-heavy, since we face ~ 110 righties each year, and only ~52 lefties.

    Exhibit I-General

    Let's say we had the talent to be .500, but because we had all lefties, we played .667 against righties, and only .333 against lefties, we'd still win 90.5 games.  There are limitations, since teams can arrange their rotation so that we'd face more lefties, but if 70% of the starters you face are righty, you're better off with more lefties in the lineup.

    Exhibit II-Specific

    In 2012, we were over >.500 v lefties, and 43-68 against righties, indicating the need for more lefties in the lineup.  In 2011, it was more balanced, but we were .533 against righties and .600 against lefties.  In 2007, we played .623 against righties.  In 2004, we stillplayed .623 against righties.  That's where we need to be.

    Exhibit III

    While it might not seem so, we actually hit lefties much better than righties last year, indicating the need for more lefties.

    Exhibit IV

    From a general BB perspective, your 3 infielders and catcher are almost always righty.  If you want any balance at all, let alone create a lefty-heavy lineup, you need to have a lefty-heavy OF.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    The lack of detail behind your post makes a response problematic.

    If you're saying we shouldn't trade Barnes for ARod, I agree.

    If you're saying we shouldn't trade Renaudo for Trout, then I disagree.

    Further, you need to define 'core' players.  Is it just the big-3, or are fringey prospects like Brentz now defined as 'core'?

    As a general rule, I like holding onto prospects.  But there is no chance to cover every opening with your own prospects.  Then it becomes a matter of trading or signing a FA.  You can trade someone like Brentz for a decent 1B, or you can sign someone like Pujols to a crippling contract.

    The you have to think about control.  Most prospects give you 5 good years if you're lucky.  So would you trade 5 years of Brentz for 3 years of Ike Davis, knowing that there i a really good chance Davis succeeds, and no guarantee of Brentz even being as good as Davis.




    Joe, think the point that was trying to be made here is that bringing in players like VMart or Agon have taken away some very good prospects who would be helping the RS now and way into the future for players that were here basically a couple of years and RS won nothing during there time here. Think the RS would love to have back Masterson/Hagadone/Rizzo/Kelley/ Fuentes based on how those [2] trades worked out. Right there you might have [2] potential starters a 1B [who might man the position for the next 10yrs] a bullpen arm, and a future CF'er. Sometimes very difficult to figure out who the fringe prospects are, Middlebrooks a good example of this. Not many on this board or probably even RS front office saw Middlebrooks making the jump he did in the last 2 yrs. While I understand your point the system is not going to produce at every position, there are plenty of players who can produce at a high level without giving up top prospects or for that matter middle prospects. The RS have produced quite a few bargains that did not cost them much Papi/Mueller/Millar/Vtek/Lowe/Bellhorn/ Schilling/Crisp/Okajima/Timlin/Arroyo/Wakefield. As for deals that trade away top prospects for established star the Pedro trade would have to be the best, but not to many work out like this one. So as far as the Barnes/Boegarts/DeLaRosa/Websters/Brentz/Bradley/Cecchinni/Marrero/ Owens/Swihart etc.. I say keep at all costs and find bargains like I mentioned to fill needs, they're out there just need to a better job of finding. While the Agon trade, Crawford signing sell seats its the homegrown talent that produces winning teams.

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    Joe, think the point that was trying to be made here is that bringing in players like VMart or Agon have taken away some very good prospects who would be helping the RS now and way into the future for players that were here basically a couple of years and RS won nothing during there time here. Think the RS would love to have back Masterson/Hagadone/Rizzo/Kelley/ Fuentes based on how those [2] trades worked out.

    Those two trades give us a good body of work to examine.  We gave up-

    • Rizzo
    • Kelly
    • Masterson
    • Hagadone
    • Fuentes
    • Price

    We got back

    • Barnes
    • Owens
    • Webster
    • Rubby DLR
    • ++

    I think the four key guys we got will out-perform the 3 key guys we gave up, and that doesn't even include the value we received for 3+ seasons of VMart and Gonzo.  The overall value we received was very good.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    In response to boborielly224's comment:

    Who do we give up for Gordon -  Lavarnway is one peice to start talks but apparently KC wants a starter. Lavarnway and Doubront will most likely get this deal done or get KC's attention.

    The Kansas City Royals have 22-year-old catcher Salvador Perez signed through 2016 with club options for 2017, 2018 and 2019.

    The Royals would be unlikely to target 25-year-old catcher Ryan Lavarnway.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    "Why would we give up our core young player's that are making ther way to the Red Sox for stop gap player's.  The Red Sox need a core of young hungry player's to build upon" 

    Hey Big Dog1

    I don't think any team would give up core players, whether young or old for stop gap players. In terms of the Red Sox they don't need hungry young players. That would be the definition of almost every guy that wears a uniform toiling all the way down to little league. What we need, to once more be among the teams to beat, are impact players/bats...For that I'd be more than ok with them selling the farm...Add to that a legit #1 big game pitcher and I'd sell off the farm too include the animals, the seed and this years harvest.

    That's not to suggest that we should as a matter of coarse give our best prospects away and gut our system in the interest of winning 90 games next year. Let's just for the sake of this argument assign a value in prospects to players like Felix Hernandez and if we're talking everyday players what is a guy like Buster Posey worth?

    How many guys on the 2004 team came up through our system? If we look at the lineup and the pitching staff...Manny, Ortiz, Damon, Mueller, Millar, Belhorn, Cabrera, Varitek all were free agents or aquired via trades the lone home grown guy we had on the team that played any significant role was Trot Nixon...2007 we added Pedrioa, Ells & Youk to the mix but Manny and Ortiz were still the guys that stirred the drink...Our pitching staff was led by Schilling & Pedro both were aquired via trades for our top prospects. That and the true MVP of the 2004 playoffs Kieth Foulke was aquired via free agency...In 2007 no one could argue that Mike Lowell and Josh Beckett didn't play a significant role in our hoisting another trophy...

    Where I'm going with this is while I agree that we need to be guarded when talking about trading away prospects...In recent memory the only real impact guy that we've traded was Ramirez and in his case the luster appears to have worn off too...

    In the end the roster as it sits today is not of championship mettle...nor do we have what I would consider any impact bats at the ready to come to Boston, nor is there a Roger Clemen's circa 1984 at the ready either as such. Cherington and Luccino have to use the Free agent/trade route along with development of the kids to arrive at the perfect storm that was 2003 to 2008...when we played in 5 ALCS and won two World Series with vastly different teams....

     

     

     

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    Joe, think the point that was trying to be made here is that bringing in players like VMart or Agon have taken away some very good prospects who would be helping the RS now and way into the future for players that were here basically a couple of years and RS won nothing during there time here. Think the RS would love to have back Masterson/Hagadone/Rizzo/Kelley/ Fuentes based on how those [2] trades worked out.

    Those two trades give us a good body of work to examine.  We gave up-

    • Rizzo
    • Kelly
    • Masterson
    • Hagadone
    • Fuentes
    • Price

    We got back

    • Barnes
    • Owens
    • Webster
    • Rubby DLR
    • ++

    I think the four key guys we got will out-perform the 3 key guys we gave up, and that doesn't even include the value we received for 3+ seasons of VMart and Gonzo.  The overall value we received was very good.



    I would venture a guess that if Theo had it to do over he may well have resigned V Mart and Beltre...

     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from raider3524. Show raider3524's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    In response to SindarinEribor's comment:




    thanks for the link..good stuff.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    I would venture a guess that if Theo had it to do over he may well have resigned V Mart and Beltre...

    VMart missed the entire season.  No one would've signed him if they could do it over.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    Joe, think the point that was trying to be made here is that bringing in players like VMart or Agon have taken away some very good prospects who would be helping the RS now and way into the future for players that were here basically a couple of years and RS won nothing during there time here. Think the RS would love to have back Masterson/Hagadone/Rizzo/Kelley/ Fuentes based on how those [2] trades worked out.

    Those two trades give us a good body of work to examine.  We gave up-

    • Rizzo
    • Kelly
    • Masterson
    • Hagadone
    • Fuentes
    • Price

    We got back

    • Barnes
    • Owens
    • Webster
    • Rubby DLR
    • ++

    I think the four key guys we got will out-perform the 3 key guys we gave up, and that doesn't even include the value we received for 3+ seasons of VMart and Gonzo.  The overall value we received was very good.




    Yes agreed but we also mortgaged to the future. While guys like Rizzo, Hagadone, Masterson, and Kelly are all in the mlb at present time ready to start or have started their mlb careers. The players we received w/ the exception of Rubby may not help to 2014 at earliest. 2013  RS would be much better w/ Rizzo at 1b, Masterson/Kelley in the rotation, Hagadone in the pen. As stated prospects can be a crap shoot, just look at Westmoreland never know what could happen. Lets not forget we also gave up CC and Beckett as part of Rubby & Webster aquisitions. If just Agon was traded then could include both of these. While I agree the upside seems to be higher on Owens / Barnes vs Masterson / Hagadone 2yrs in the minors can be an eternity. From what I saw of Rizzo 2nd half last yr, I wouldn't make that trade over again right now. I'll take C.Kelley in rotation, Rizzo@1b, Fuentes future CF'r than Rubby/Webster we got in return.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    In response to bigdog1's comment:

    I ask my fellow posters?  Why would we give up our core young player's that are making ther way to the Red Sox for stop gap player's.  The Red Sox need a core of young hungry player's to build upon.  All I have read recently on this board is we should start trading our young talent!!!  I say,"NO WAY!" to this idea.  If we struggle for a year, then lets get it over with!!  If we don't develope our own core of player's we will be on the outside looking in for a long time.  Ben Stay with the plan to develope and then we can go out and get what spare parts that we need.



    The Sox have been OUTSTANDING over the past ten years at choosing which of their top prospects to keep and which to trade.  Few mistakes have been made, and no real howlers.


    It's laughable the way so many people project the 2015/2016 Sox as having 10-15 homegrown players.  As if Cecchini, and Middlebrooks, and Iggy, and Brentz, and Boegarts, and Swihart, and Barnes, and de la Rosa, and Webster, and Bradley etc. etc. etc. are all going to even make the big league, no less be a starter, no less be a star.  It's not going to happen, never has, never will.  Maybe the 1970s Dodgers came closest.

    So the issue is deciding which ones to sell high on and which to keep.  And, again, the Sox have a great recent track record at doing just that.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    I would venture a guess that if Theo had it to do over he may well have resigned V Mart and Beltre...

    VMart missed the entire season.  No one would've signed him if they could do it over.




    Overall those transactions were great for the Sox.  On the way in, we got 2.5 excellent seasons from VMart and Beltre, and on the way out we got 4 draft picks that we appear to have put to good use.

    As ever with transactions, we need to wait to fully evaluate them.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    Joe, think the point that was trying to be made here is that bringing in players like VMart or Agon have taken away some very good prospects who would be helping the RS now and way into the future for players that were here basically a couple of years and RS won nothing during there time here. Think the RS would love to have back Masterson/Hagadone/Rizzo/Kelley/ Fuentes based on how those [2] trades worked out.

    Those two trades give us a good body of work to examine.  We gave up-

    • Rizzo
    • Kelly
    • Masterson
    • Hagadone
    • Fuentes
    • Price

    We got back

    • Barnes
    • Owens
    • Webster
    • Rubby DLR
    • ++

    I think the four key guys we got will out-perform the 3 key guys we gave up, and that doesn't even include the value we received for 3+ seasons of VMart and Gonzo.  The overall value we received was very good.




    Don't forget AGon also was used to unwind the terrible albatross contract that CC represented.  It did not directly bring in a player, but it will enable us to add talent we otherwise wouldn't have been able to get.   That is part of the value he returned with Webster and Rubby.

     
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