why would we want give up our future

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Who do we give up for Gordon -  Lavarnway is one peice to start talks but apparently KC wants a starter. Lavarnway and Doubront will most likely get this deal done or get KC's attention.

    If Cherington pulls this deal off sign Haren to replace Doubront.

    That's basically what I think a lot of fans think of when giving up prospects.  We give up 5 years of Doubront for 3 of Gordon, with the possibility of draft comp at the end.  It's mostly a matter of how many wins from Gordon at what $$$ versus what you'd get from Doubront.

    [/QUOTE]

    Gordon is signed for 4 more seasons.  Is it worth keeping one more season of Doubront, considering he will be deep into hs arbitration eligibility?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    In response to seabeachfred's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Who do we give up for Gordon -  Lavarnway is one peice to start talks but apparently KC wants a starter. Lavarnway and Doubront will most likely get this deal done or get KC's attention.

    If Cherington pulls this deal off sign Haren to replace Doubront.

    That's basically what I think a lot of fans think of when giving up prospects.  We give up 5 years of Doubront for 3 of Gordon, with the possibility of draft comp at the end.  It's mostly a matter of how many wins from Gordon at what $$$ versus what you'd get from Doubront.

    [/QUOTE]



    Gordon is a lefthanded hitter and if y ou pair him with Ellsbury and a first baseman like LaRoche, Morneau or Davis, combine that with Ortiz and Salty and we have the same problem we had in 2011---to da#n lefthanded, and in a division with a plethora of solid southpaw pitchers that is fatal.  I would pass on Gordon unless Ells is traded---and keep this in mind:  JBjr is also a l efthanded hitter.  We play in Fenway Park for half our games....we need RH hitters with sock.  A few lefties fine but the majority of our lineup should be righthanded.  Besides, too many LH hitters have trouble with with lefty pitchers.

    I would sign Ross and Hunter for the OF and Ike Davis for 1B.  That way we don't get too lefthanded.  Of course, we need two pitchers too.  I wonder if Haren could be gotten for a reasonable price?

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I guess the question there -is why would we get a left-handed 1B if we traded for Gordon?

     

    If the Sox can trade for Gordon, whom KC has not exactly put on the block yet, then the smarter move might be to go after someone like Napoli (yippy) for 1B.  Or some other RHH first baseman.

     

    The Sox will not tradeEllsbury, barring some idiotic offer.  There are simply too many other CF out there who could be more easily acquired...

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    Yes agreed but we also mortgaged to the future. While guys like Rizzo, Hagadone, Masterson, and Kelly are all in the mlb at present time ready to start or have started their mlb careers. The players we received w/ the exception of Rubby may not help to 2014 at earliest. 2013  RS would be much better w/ Rizzo at 1b, Masterson/Kelley in the rotation, Hagadone in the pen.

    We didn't mortgage to the future, though I am not philosophically opposed to that.

    Break the transaction into two parts.

    1-We had ~ 3.25 seasons of VMart and Gonzo and lost Masterson who was 30-45 with a 4.29 over the same period, so we definitely won the present.  Hagadone has made no contribtion.

    2-Now it is RDLR, Webster, Barnes, and Owens for Rizzo, Kelly, and Fuentes.  So we should do okay in the future.  29 IPs from Kelly with a 6.21 ERA doesn't qualify as a present contribution.  Rizzo has made a modest contribtion with an .805 OPS, but decidedly against righties.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    In response to notin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to seabeachfred's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Who do we give up for Gordon -  Lavarnway is one peice to start talks but apparently KC wants a starter. Lavarnway and Doubront will most likely get this deal done or get KC's attention.

    If Cherington pulls this deal off sign Haren to replace Doubront.

    That's basically what I think a lot of fans think of when giving up prospects.  We give up 5 years of Doubront for 3 of Gordon, with the possibility of draft comp at the end.  It's mostly a matter of how many wins from Gordon at what $$$ versus what you'd get from Doubront.

    [/QUOTE]



    Gordon is a lefthanded hitter and if y ou pair him with Ellsbury and a first baseman like LaRoche, Morneau or Davis, combine that with Ortiz and Salty and we have the same problem we had in 2011---to da#n lefthanded, and in a division with a plethora of solid southpaw pitchers that is fatal.  I would pass on Gordon unless Ells is traded---and keep this in mind:  JBjr is also a l efthanded hitter.  We play in Fenway Park for half our games....we need RH hitters with sock.  A few lefties fine but the majority of our lineup should be righthanded.  Besides, too many LH hitters have trouble with with lefty pitchers.

    I would sign Ross and Hunter for the OF and Ike Davis for 1B.  That way we don't get too lefthanded.  Of course, we need two pitchers too.  I wonder if Haren could be gotten for a reasonable price?

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I guess the question there -is why would we get a left-handed 1B if we traded for Gordon?

     

    If the Sox can trade for Gordon, whom KC has not exactly put on the block yet, then the smarter move might be to go after someone like Napoli (yippy) for 1B.  Or some other RHH first baseman.

     

    The Sox will not tradeEllsbury, barring some idiotic offer.  There are simply too many other CF out there who could be more easily acquired...

    [/QUOTE]

    We don't really need any more RH bats.  We hit lefties much better than righties last year.  We were > .500 against lefty starters.

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    right here pike. numbah 1 fan of big numbah 2

     
  7. This post has been removed.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I would venture a guess that if Theo had it to do over he may well have resigned V Mart and Beltre...

    VMart missed the entire season.  No one would've signed him if they could do it over.

    [/QUOTE]


    Overall those transactions were great for the Sox.  On the way in, we got 2.5 excellent seasons from VMart and Beltre, and on the way out we got 4 draft picks that we appear to have put to good use.

    As ever with transactions, we need to wait to fully evaluate them.

    [/QUOTE]


    I get that VMart missed an entire season and Beltre has also had his share of injuries. Yes we do have 4 prospects to show for allowing both to walk...We also have a major league team and roster that is today a shadow of itself. IMHO our fortunes might well have been different in the last two seasons had we kept the two of them. Both are solid citizens and good clubhouse guys...spilt milk, yes.

    My greater point was and is, that if you look at where the Sox went wrong it begins and ends with roster moves that were made entering the 2009-2010 seasons with little regard to the makeup of the players or how they would best fit the roster. They only compounded the problem with the signing of Crawford.

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Yes agreed but we also mortgaged to the future. While guys like Rizzo, Hagadone, Masterson, and Kelly are all in the mlb at present time ready to start or have started their mlb careers. The players we received w/ the exception of Rubby may not help to 2014 at earliest. 2013  RS would be much better w/ Rizzo at 1b, Masterson/Kelley in the rotation, Hagadone in the pen.

    We didn't mortgage to the future, though I am not philosophically opposed to that.

    Break the transaction into two parts.

    1-We had ~ 3.25 seasons of VMart and Gonzo and lost Masterson who was 30-45 with a 4.29 over the same period, so we definitely won the present.  Hagadone has made no contribtion.

    2-Now it is RDLR, Webster, Barnes, and Owens for Rizzo, Kelly, and Fuentes.  So we should do okay in the future.  29 IPs from Kelly with a 6.21 ERA doesn't qualify as a present contribution.  Rizzo has made a modest contribtion with an .805 OPS, but decidedly against righties.

    [/QUOTE]


    Biggest disagreement I have w/ this arguement is the fact that you've already got Barnes/Owens/Webster as productive mlb players. Right now we can't even assume that they'll make mlb level [I know it would be foolish arguement to say they won't-but don't forget pitchers can be tough to get to mlb level due to injuries] let alone be better players than Masterson/Kelley/Rizzo/Hagadone who have been there done that and are only getting better. If lets say they do make mlb level and take time to develope as the other player have, might not be til 2016 that Barnes/Owens/Webster are actully making major contributions to RS? But the player I think you missing the boat on is Rizzo [805 ops] who really started to come into his own 2nd half last yr and might make the Agon trade look very bad all by himself no matter what Kelly/Fuentes does. I was right years ago when Notin said Youk would never hit 20 hrs or drive in more than 70 runs [based on minor league stats] and that Daubach was a better 1b than Youk ever would be and I have this same feeling about Rizzo [as does Theo?]. Really think he will develope into 30hr/100 rbi guy, could be wrong just as we could be about Webster/ Barnes/Owens. Thats why buying into future can always be dangerous, just never know if player will develope as one might speculate. Tough to be consisient winner if trading top prospects for players who stay for couple of yrs, even if we get draft pick compensation for them. Look at all the teams winning WS lately one thing they all have in common =  ton of homegrown talent. Best way to be consistent playoff contender! Rays/A's are 2 perfect exmples, even w/ all the players they couldn't afford to keep they just keep producing talent.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    In response to bigdog1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I ask my fellow posters?  Why would we give up our core young player's that are making ther way to the Red Sox for stop gap player's.  The Red Sox need a core of young hungry player's to build upon.  All I have read recently on this board is we should start trading our young talent!!!  I say,"NO WAY!" to this idea.  If we struggle for a year, then lets get it over with!!  If we don't develope our own core of player's we will be on the outside looking in for a long time.  Ben Stay with the plan to develope and then we can go out and get what spare parts that we need.

    [/QUOTE]

    Who said it's an idea, or are you looking ahead to something that may happen, and assuming that's the case. That is something teenagers do when they want to be mad at their parents.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alibiike. Show Alibiike's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The lack of detail behind your post makes a response problematic.

    If you're saying we shouldn't trade Barnes for ARod, I agree.

    If you're saying we shouldn't trade Renaudo for Trout, then I disagree.

    Further, you need to define 'core' players.  Is it just the big-3, or are fringey prospects like Brentz now defined as 'core'?

    As a general rule, I like holding onto prospects.  But there is no chance to cover every opening with your own prospects.  Then it becomes a matter of trading or signing a FA.  You can trade someone like Brentz for a decent 1B, or you can sign someone like Pujols to a crippling contract.

    The you have to think about control.  Most prospects give you 5 good years if you're lucky.  So would you trade 5 years of Brentz for 3 years of Ike Davis, knowing that there i a really good chance Davis succeeds, and no guarantee of Brentz even being as good as Davis.

    [/QUOTE]


    Therein lies the problem. Sox prospects take much too long to make it to the show, if they ever do. Player development is lacking big-time in this organization, either that or scouting is the problem. When we do find some really good talent, we seem content to trade them away for a bag of fungoes.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    In response to Alibiike's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The lack of detail behind your post makes a response problematic.

    If you're saying we shouldn't trade Barnes for ARod, I agree.

    If you're saying we shouldn't trade Renaudo for Trout, then I disagree.

    Further, you need to define 'core' players.  Is it just the big-3, or are fringey prospects like Brentz now defined as 'core'?

    As a general rule, I like holding onto prospects.  But there is no chance to cover every opening with your own prospects.  Then it becomes a matter of trading or signing a FA.  You can trade someone like Brentz for a decent 1B, or you can sign someone like Pujols to a crippling contract.

    The you have to think about control.  Most prospects give you 5 good years if you're lucky.  So would you trade 5 years of Brentz for 3 years of Ike Davis, knowing that there i a really good chance Davis succeeds, and no guarantee of Brentz even being as good as Davis.

    [/QUOTE]


    Therein lies the problem. Sox prospects take much too long to make it to the show, if they ever do. Player development is lacking big-time in this organization, either that or scouting is the problem. When we do find some really good talent, we seem content to trade them away for a bag of fungoes.

    [/QUOTE]

    Maybe the Sox just wait too long to give some prospects a chance is part of the problem.

    We have tons of Sox prospects in MLB today. Most on other teams.

     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: why would we want give up our future

    why did you get banned pike?

     

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