Why you trade for Cliff Lee

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    Re: Why you trade for Cliff Lee

    In response to jackbu's comment:

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to jackbu's comment:

     

    I'd take Cliff Lee in a heart beat.  Give them Middlebrooks, ells and whoever else they want.

     



    Salty, Webster, and Middy I'm sure would catch the Phils interest if they were willing to pay a good portion of Lee's salary.  Ruiz and Young are FA's after the season and currently making 29.5mil between the two.  They Phils would be making out pretty well, even more if they choose to play their young catcher and let Salty walk.

     

     

     



    The sox have the money and this is no longer a bridge year.  With three great starters, the sox can beat anyone.  As the saying goes, if you can't beat em , you may as well join em.

     




    Yes, loosen the purse strings & go after Paps too !!!

    Was switching between the Pacer/Heat game and the Mets/Yankee game. Glad Pacers beat LeBron and then Yankees with a 1-0 lead have Mariano come in and announcers said he hadn't blown a save all year. He's human...gave up 3 hits in a row & Mets won a walk off 2-1, same score they won by the previous night.

    I wanted a hat trick as I watched our last of the 9th and hoped we'd do the same to Paps but he shut us down. I'd go after both him and Lee irrespective of the cost.

     

     

     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why you trade for Cliff Lee

    Cliff Lee's enormous contract will not end, most likely, until 2016 (if he pitches 200 innings in 2015). We made that mistake once and should not be repeating it no matter how good a game he had last night. We should be sequestering great young pitching prospects this now that will be under team control for many years.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kingface12. Show Kingface12's posts

    Re: Why you trade for Cliff Lee

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    Cliff Lee's enormous contract will not end, most likely, until 2016 (if he pitches 200 innings in 2015). We made that mistake once and should not be repeating it no matter how good a game he had last night. We should be sequestering great young pitching prospects this now that will be under team control for many years.




    Agreed.  I would have loved to have Lee a few years ago....and for this year too....but going forward it's just too much money.  While the idea of a Buch, Lester, Lee, Lacky and Dempster rotation (which would put any other to shame) sounds amazing....I would rather not get handcuffed by tthat salary.  The more money Philly eats...the better the prospects they get in return. You gotta figure WMB is just the STARTING point.  They will want 2 high quality young arms in return also.  I just don't feel comfortable with that.  The farm system is VERY strong.  Why not stick to the plan, groom them and see what they can do?  Let's not forget we also have the 7th pick which will strengthen it even more.

    If we make a deal that involves our young players then I want something better/younger then Lee.  Stanton??

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Why you trade for Cliff Lee

    Papelbon and Lee both looked terrific last night and no doubt worth every penny of their enormous salaries.  That is, worth it, one would hope, to the Philadelphia Phillies.

    But which team is leading the AL East by a game and which team has a losing record and is mired somewhere in the middle of the NL East? 

    To be honest, I give Papelbon a ton of credit for thriving in Philly.  His fast ball looks great, so does his spitter, and his control is excellent.  But he's getting an enormous amount of money just to pitch one inning maybe 50 or 60 times a year.  Plus I had the distinct impression in 2011 that AL hitters were homing in on that fast ball.  Paying Papelbon's enormous salary last year wasn't going to make much difference because Cherington needed to clean house.  Better to have invested that money and some more into a good front line starter, but apparently none was available for less than, say, a cool $25M per season. 

    If you think it's hard going after front line starters, take a gander at those big money hitters like Pujols, AGon, ARod, et al.  None has proved to be transformation for his team.  Right now it looks like the only team who truly pulled a major heist was the Red Sox when the acquired first Manny Ramirez and then David Ortiz, two guys who were central to the 2004 and 2007 WS wins.  Of course that meant Francona would also have to put up with Manny being Manny for several years. 

    Back to the topic at hand.  Cliff Lee is paid way too much money to be a good investment, especially when he turns 35 this summer.  I think the money should go toward a good righty bat or maybe just stand pat for now. 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: Why you trade for Cliff Lee

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

     

    If you think it's hard going after front line starters, take a gander at those big money hitters like Pujols, AGon, ARod, et al.  None has proved to be transformation for his team.  Right now it looks like the only team who truly pulled a major heist was the Red Sox when the acquired first Manny Ramirez and then David Ortiz, two guys who were central to the 2004 and 2007 WS wins.  Of course that meant Francona would also have to put up with Manny being Manny for several years. 

     



    not sure what you mean

    can you expand

     

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Why you trade for Cliff Lee

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

     

    Papelbon and Lee both looked terrific last night and no doubt worth every penny of their enormous salaries.  That is, worth it, one would hope, to the Philadelphia Phillies.

    But which team is leading the AL East by a game and which team has a losing record and is mired somewhere in the middle of the NL East? 

    To be honest, I give Papelbon a ton of credit for thriving in Philly.  His fast ball looks great, so does his spitter, and his control is excellent.  But he's getting an enormous amount of money just to pitch one inning maybe 50 or 60 times a year.  Plus I had the distinct impression in 2011 that AL hitters were homing in on that fast ball.  Paying Papelbon's enormous salary last year wasn't going to make much difference because Cherington needed to clean house.  Better to have invested that money and some more into a good front line starter, but apparently none was available for less than, say, a cool $25M per season. 

    If you think it's hard going after front line starters, take a gander at those big money hitters like Pujols, AGon, ARod, et al.  None has proved to be transformation for his team.  Right now it looks like the only team who truly pulled a major heist was the Red Sox when the acquired first Manny Ramirez and then David Ortiz, two guys who were central to the 2004 and 2007 WS wins.  Of course that meant Francona would also have to put up with Manny being Manny for several years. 

    Back to the topic at hand.  Cliff Lee is paid way too much money to be a good investment, especially when he turns 35 this summer.  I think the money should go toward a good righty bat or maybe just stand pat for now. 

     



    max,

    The Sox have plenty of room for improvement despite their record so far.  Trading for Lee would hardly kill our payroll the way some think if the Phils picked up a lot of his salary.  We have plenty of guys who could and will be expendable. 

    Guys like ...  Ells, Drew, Aceves, Nap & Salty are making 30mil.  All but maybe? Nap could be expendable in 2014. 

    Gomes is at 5mil, if he continues to struggle and we could move him?  I would give Brentz a shot.

    Hanrahan, Lackey & Dempster are picking up another 20mil.  Harder to move but maybe not impossible if one of our young arms mature sooner than expected and Tazawa could take Hans place. 

    Standing pat because we are in first place shouldn't have us overlooking ways to improve even further.  Also, losing Webster, Middy and possibly even Salty in a Lee trade probably won't kill our farm, or hurt the tream that much with kids like Barnes, De La Rosa, Workman, Cecchini, Iggy, Bogy, Lav, Vasquez, Swihart and others in the wings. 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why you trade for Cliff Lee

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

     

    Papelbon and Lee both looked terrific last night and no doubt worth every penny of their enormous salaries.  That is, worth it, one would hope, to the Philadelphia Phillies.

    But which team is leading the AL East by a game and which team has a losing record and is mired somewhere in the middle of the NL East? 

    To be honest, I give Papelbon a ton of credit for thriving in Philly.  His fast ball looks great, so does his spitter, and his control is excellent.  But he's getting an enormous amount of money just to pitch one inning maybe 50 or 60 times a year.  Plus I had the distinct impression in 2011 that AL hitters were homing in on that fast ball.  Paying Papelbon's enormous salary last year wasn't going to make much difference because Cherington needed to clean house.  Better to have invested that money and some more into a good front line starter, but apparently none was available for less than, say, a cool $25M per season. 

    If you think it's hard going after front line starters, take a gander at those big money hitters like Pujols, AGon, ARod, et al.  None has proved to be transformation for his team.  Right now it looks like the only team who truly pulled a major heist was the Red Sox when the acquired first Manny Ramirez and then David Ortiz, two guys who were central to the 2004 and 2007 WS wins.  Of course that meant Francona would also have to put up with Manny being Manny for several years. 

    Back to the topic at hand.  Cliff Lee is paid way too much money to be a good investment, especially when he turns 35 this summer.  I think the money should go toward a good righty bat or maybe just stand pat for now. 

     



    max,

     

    The Sox have plenty of room for improvement despite their record so far.  Trading for Lee would hardly kill our payroll the way some think if the Phils picked up a lot of his salary.  We have plenty of guys who could and will be expendable. 

    Guys like ...  Ells, Drew, Aceves, Nap & Salty are making 30mil.  All but maybe? Nap could be expendable in 2014. 

    Gomes is at 5mil, if he continues to struggle and we could move him?  I would give Brentz a shot.

    Hanrahan, Lackey & Dempster are picking up another 20mil.  Harder to move but maybe not impossible if one of our young arms mature sooner than expected and Tazawa could take Hans place. 

    Standing pat because we are in first place shouldn't have us overlooking ways to improve even further.  Also, losing Webster, Middy and possibly even Salty in a Lee trade probably won't kill our farm, or hurt the tream that much with kids like Barnes, De La Rosa, Workman, Cecchini, Bogy, Lav, Vasquez, Swihart and others in the wings. 




    IMO it would be real dumb to trade Webster away for a 35 year old pitcher with a bloated salary that is on the books for three more years after this one.

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Why you trade for Cliff Lee

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

     

    Papelbon and Lee both looked terrific last night and no doubt worth every penny of their enormous salaries.  That is, worth it, one would hope, to the Philadelphia Phillies.

    But which team is leading the AL East by a game and which team has a losing record and is mired somewhere in the middle of the NL East? 

    To be honest, I give Papelbon a ton of credit for thriving in Philly.  His fast ball looks great, so does his spitter, and his control is excellent.  But he's getting an enormous amount of money just to pitch one inning maybe 50 or 60 times a year.  Plus I had the distinct impression in 2011 that AL hitters were homing in on that fast ball.  Paying Papelbon's enormous salary last year wasn't going to make much difference because Cherington needed to clean house.  Better to have invested that money and some more into a good front line starter, but apparently none was available for less than, say, a cool $25M per season. 

    If you think it's hard going after front line starters, take a gander at those big money hitters like Pujols, AGon, ARod, et al.  None has proved to be transformation for his team.  Right now it looks like the only team who truly pulled a major heist was the Red Sox when the acquired first Manny Ramirez and then David Ortiz, two guys who were central to the 2004 and 2007 WS wins.  Of course that meant Francona would also have to put up with Manny being Manny for several years. 

    Back to the topic at hand.  Cliff Lee is paid way too much money to be a good investment, especially when he turns 35 this summer.  I think the money should go toward a good righty bat or maybe just stand pat for now. 

     



    max,

     

    The Sox have plenty of room for improvement despite their record so far.  Trading for Lee would hardly kill our payroll the way some think if the Phils picked up a lot of his salary.  We have plenty of guys who could and will be expendable. 

    Guys like ...  Ells, Drew, Aceves, Nap & Salty are making 30mil plus.  All but maybe? Nap could be expendable in 2014. 

    Gomes is at 5mil, if he continues to struggle and we could move him?  I would give Brentz a shot.

    Hanrahan, Lackey & Dempster are picking up another 20mil.  Harder to move but maybe not impossible if one of our young arms mature sooner than expected and Tazawa could take Hans place. 

    Standing pat because we are in first place shouldn't have us overlooking ways to improve even further.  Also, losing Webster, Middy and possibly even Salty in a Lee trade probably won't kill our farm, or hurt the tream that much with kids like Barnes, De La Rosa, Workman, Cecchini, Bogy, Lav, Vasquez, Swihart and others in the wings. 

     




    IMO it would be real dumb to trade Webster away for a 35 year old pitcher with a bloated salary that is on the books for three more years after this one.

     

    Its also dumb to think Lackey, Dempster and Doub will hold up the tail end of our rotation all season.  Webster isn't any closer than our other top young arms of getting to the majors. 

    Having a good ST against make ship lineups doesn't mean a kid is ready for for the Bigs.

     




     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why you trade for Cliff Lee

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

     

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

     

    Papelbon and Lee both looked terrific last night and no doubt worth every penny of their enormous salaries.  That is, worth it, one would hope, to the Philadelphia Phillies.

    But which team is leading the AL East by a game and which team has a losing record and is mired somewhere in the middle of the NL East? 

    To be honest, I give Papelbon a ton of credit for thriving in Philly.  His fast ball looks great, so does his spitter, and his control is excellent.  But he's getting an enormous amount of money just to pitch one inning maybe 50 or 60 times a year.  Plus I had the distinct impression in 2011 that AL hitters were homing in on that fast ball.  Paying Papelbon's enormous salary last year wasn't going to make much difference because Cherington needed to clean house.  Better to have invested that money and some more into a good front line starter, but apparently none was available for less than, say, a cool $25M per season. 

    If you think it's hard going after front line starters, take a gander at those big money hitters like Pujols, AGon, ARod, et al.  None has proved to be transformation for his team.  Right now it looks like the only team who truly pulled a major heist was the Red Sox when the acquired first Manny Ramirez and then David Ortiz, two guys who were central to the 2004 and 2007 WS wins.  Of course that meant Francona would also have to put up with Manny being Manny for several years. 

    Back to the topic at hand.  Cliff Lee is paid way too much money to be a good investment, especially when he turns 35 this summer.  I think the money should go toward a good righty bat or maybe just stand pat for now. 

     



    max,

     

    The Sox have plenty of room for improvement despite their record so far.  Trading for Lee would hardly kill our payroll the way some think if the Phils picked up a lot of his salary.  We have plenty of guys who could and will be expendable. 

    Guys like ...  Ells, Drew, Aceves, Nap & Salty are making 30mil plus.  All but maybe? Nap could be expendable in 2014. 

    Gomes is at 5mil, if he continues to struggle and we could move him?  I would give Brentz a shot.

    Hanrahan, Lackey & Dempster are picking up another 20mil.  Harder to move but maybe not impossible if one of our young arms mature sooner than expected and Tazawa could take Hans place. 

    Standing pat because we are in first place shouldn't have us overlooking ways to improve even further.  Also, losing Webster, Middy and possibly even Salty in a Lee trade probably won't kill our farm, or hurt the tream that much with kids like Barnes, De La Rosa, Workman, Cecchini, Bogy, Lav, Vasquez, Swihart and others in the wings. 

     




    IMO it would be real dumb to trade Webster away for a 35 year old pitcher with a bloated salary that is on the books for three more years after this one.

     

    Its also dumb to think Lackey, Dempster and Doub will hold up the tail end of our rotation all season.  Webster isn't any closer than our other top young arms of getting to the majors. 

    Having a good ST against make ship lineups doesn't mean a kid is ready for for the Bigs.

     




     



    Who said I am expecting Doubront and Dempster to hold up the back end of the rotation? I have said here that I think both of them are not very good at all. I would replace Doubront with Morales and let Dempster sink to the #5 SP. Even with an ERA near 5 he won't be much worse than most #5 SP. Giving away a young promising SP who is under team control for probably six years for a 35 year old who costs too much is not smart for our future, no matter how good that pitcher is. Its the same mistake we made by going for broke in signing Lackey, Crawford, Gonzo etc. You cannot buy a consistent winning team; you have to build it, starting with good young SP and THEN adding a few seasoned cost-effective vets to the mix. We tried buying a winner and we all saw how that worked out.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Why you trade for Cliff Lee

    We dumped 260mil in salaries last season and could easily dump another 33mil or so next season just by allowing guys like Han, Ells, Salty, Aceves and Drew to walk.  If we stayed away from just Gomes and Dempster this season we could have had another 36mil to spend more wisely on a younger pitcher like Anibal.  

    You're right after blowing 154mil on Lackey, Dempster, Hanrahan and Gomes the past few years I guess Lee wouldn't be much smarter than our present bridge plan.    

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxnewmex. Show soxnewmex's posts

    Re: Why you trade for Cliff Lee

    Oh yeah, started a thread out about wanting Lee a few weeks ago.  Still would love to have him, age is less of a problem with Lee than for someone like say Beckett because Lee is a pitcher and Beckett never was and now that his high octane stuff is on the wane he's sinking fast.  Guys without dominant stuff who know how to pitch last longer, guys like Maddox, still very effective while approaching 40.  Still, it depends on what you'd have to give up of course, and be hard to give up a guy like Webster, though personally would have no problem with parting with Middy esp. w/Cecchini and Bogaerts in the pipeline.

     
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    Re: Why you trade for Cliff Lee

    Unless the Phills eat a LOT of his salary, the Sox would go over the luxury tax mark. They would have to unload some top prospects and also have to trade other pieces to stay under the mark. Why change a team that much that is doing very good so far? I think they can find another alternative if need be at a lesser cost.

    I would like to see paps back though. I never wanted him to go and thought he was well worth 4/48 witha 5th year vesting option, so I was only off by a million per. he will be fine throughout his deal IMO.

     
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    Re: Why you trade for Cliff Lee

    In response to pinstripezac35's comment:

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

     

     

    If you think it's hard going after front line starters, take a gander at those big money hitters like Pujols, AGon, ARod, et al.  None has proved to be transformation for his team.  Right now it looks like the only team who truly pulled a major heist was the Red Sox when the acquired first Manny Ramirez and then David Ortiz, two guys who were central to the 2004 and 2007 WS wins.  Of course that meant Francona would also have to put up with Manny being Manny for several years. 

     

     



    not sure what you mean

     

    can you expand

     

     




     

    crickets

     I guess I'm not worthy of an explanation

    ok

    I'll just come to my own conclusion

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: Why you trade for Cliff Lee

    bridge plan-schmidg plan....forget big $$ winning stud pitchers.  i say we trim another $80MM off of the payroll so that henry et al can send that cash to Liverpool or fuel up their 180' yachts for the summer.

    <sarc>

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Why you trade for Cliff Lee

    In response to craze4sox's comment:

    We dumped 260mil in salaries last season and could easily dump another 33mil or so next season just by allowing guys like Han, Ells, Salty, Aceves and Drew to walk.  If we stayed away from just Gomes and Dempster this season we could have had another 36mil to spend more wisely on a younger pitcher like Anibal.  

    You're right after blowing 154mil on Lackey, Dempster, Hanrahan and Gomes the past few years I guess Lee wouldn't be much smarter than our present bridge plan.    




    So this means you think the current team is the wrong team--lousy, in fact.  How then do you explain being in first place in the AL East with the second best record in the AL and only half a game behind the Rangers? 

     

     
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    Re: Why you trade for Cliff Lee

    Lets get serious and look at Cliff Lee more closely. Start with his K rate the last 3 years.....

    2011-9.2
    2012-8.8
    2013-7.0

    Now his velocity the last 3 years....

    2011-91.5
    2012-91.6
    2013-90.7

    BABIP

    2011-.291
    2012-.309
    2013-.259

    GB%

    2011-46.3
    2012-45.0
    2013-39.1

    HR-FB%

    2011-9.0
    2012-11.8
    2013-5.5

    What those stats say to me is that he has lost something this year and it has yet to show up on the stats because he has been lucky. His velocity, K rate and GB% are all way down. While his BABIP and HR-FB% are very lucky.

    Did you know that in his last 3 years against AL hitting before he signed with the Red Sox, Dempster matched and maybe even slightly out perfomed Cliff Lee against AL hitters his last 3 seasons....

    Dempster 2010-2012 against AL

    W-L 11-6
    ERA 4.02


    Cliff Lee 2011-2013 against AL

    W-L 3-4
    ERA 4.13

    The Red Sox DON'T have plenty of money to pay Cliff Lee. They would go over the tax. Lee is the second highest paid player in baseball, only behind Agon. Careful what you wish for.

     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Why you trade for Cliff Lee

    In response to jackbu's comment:

    Simply put, they get Lee they start selling out again.  They get Lee, they can beat anyone in the post season.



    I am certainly in favor of getting Lee under two conditions: first, we get him for only midlevel prospects and second, the Phillies pay almost all of his salary.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: Why you trade for Cliff Lee

    I don't think we get Lee. I'd like to see him in a Sox uni.

    It will take Webster or Ranaudo or Barnes or RDLR PLUS WMB or JBJ and perhaps Vazquez. So would you deal Webster JBJ and Vazquez  FOR LEE and two prospects and the $12.5 M buyout.

    Would Lee, Buch, Lester, Dempster and a healthy Morales be enough to get you to the playoffs?

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Why you trade for Cliff Lee

    In response to MadMc44's comment:

    I don't think we get Lee. I'd like to see him in a Sox uni.

    It will take Webster or Ranaudo or Barnes or RDLR PLUS WMB or JBJ and perhaps Vazquez. So would you deal Webster JBJ and Vazquez  FOR LEE and two prospects and the $12.5 M buyout.

    Would Lee, Buch, Lester, Dempster and a healthy Morales be enough to get you to the playoffs?



    Where is John Lackey in this rotation?  There will obviously be plenty of suitors for Lee at the deadline if he is pitching well and they are out of it.  The Phillies have a huge new TV contract, so they won't be looking to just dump him and his salary unless they get a ton in return.  They aren't going to just blow up that team and go into rebuild mode, either.  A lot can happen over the next 2 months, so it's a little early to determine whether or not he will even be available.  

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: Why you trade for Cliff Lee

    In response to jasko2248's comment:

    In response to MadMc44's comment:

     

    I don't think we get Lee. I'd like to see him in a Sox uni.

    It will take Webster or Ranaudo or Barnes or RDLR PLUS WMB or JBJ and perhaps Vazquez. So would you deal Webster JBJ and Vazquez  FOR LEE and two prospects and the $12.5 M buyout.

    Would Lee, Buch, Lester, Dempster and a healthy Morales be enough to get you to the playoffs?

     



    Where is John Lackey in this rotation?  There will obviously be plenty of suitors for Lee at the deadline if he is pitching well and they are out of it.  The Phillies have a huge new TV contract, so they won't be looking to just dump him and his salary unless they get a ton in return.  They aren't going to just blow up that team and go into rebuild mode, either.  A lot can happen over the next 2 months, so it's a little early to determine whether or not he will even be available.  

     



    Thanks Jasko--I knew I was missing someone. 

    The Sox do have to do something in the next 10 months--alot sooner actually--to move some of this talent congregating at AAA and AA they don't intend to use. 

    3 minor league catchers on the 40 not including Swihart .

    Other 40 options:

    Drake Britton at AA

    Alex Hassan at AAA

    Ells, Drew and Nap will be on to FA

     
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