Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

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    Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

    A certain BDC contributor who was always right every offseason since Theo Epstein became GM used to beat this dead horse repeatedly. Now the day is here...the day of reckoning.

    * Theo's refusal to trade Clay Buchholz is one of the reasons why Roy Halladay isn't pitching for the Boston Red Sox. Will the Red Sox finally dump Buchholz while he still has enough value to get a REAL ace (Felix Hernandez, Cliff Lee, Roy Oswalt to name a few possibilities)?

    * Theo's refusal to stop wasting a roster space on Tim Wakefield has kept the Red Sox starting pitcher rotation from taking shape for the long haul. Theo kept Timlin for too many seasons, but finally Timlin walked out. If Wakefield refuses to walk out for the good of the team, will the Red Sox finally cut Wakefield and look to someone like Doug Fister and/or Scherzer from Detroit to solidify the middle of the Sox rotation in 2012? Theo wouldn't make the move, will the new GM be constrained by Epstein's ghost?

    * Why is Jason Varitek still a member of the active Red Sox roster? Didn't a certain person (Law) say that keeping Varitek on the Sox team would divide the Sox clubhouse, undermine and end VMart's stay in Boston and bring the team down? Didn't Law say Tek needed to go after the 2007 season? It's 2011.

    * John Lackey, Carl Crawford...these are Gagne sized Theo blunders. Will the ghost of Theo Epstein keep these two clowns on the Sox roster in 2012?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from OurMan. Show OurMan's posts

    Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

    Okay folks!
    Let's talk Red Sox baseball!
     
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    Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

    Let's get those votes in...let your voices be heard!
     
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    Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

    This is a legitimate baseball question.
    We know Theo fans are already packing for Chicago, but what's up Boston???
     
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    Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

    In Response to Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?:
    [QUOTE]This is a legitimate baseball question. We know Theo fans are already packing for Chicago, but what's up Boston???
    Posted by OurMan[/QUOTE]
     
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    Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

    Roy Oswalt? ROFL! Good one.
     
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    Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

    In Response to Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?:
    [QUOTE]Theo's mistakes will haunt the sox for a long time.
    Posted by jackbu[/QUOTE]

    I agree with that observation to a certain extent.
    If the Red Sox get Joe Torre or Tony LaRussa or even Jim Leyland, the Red Sox roster will be stripped down to its working parts and this team will turn it around really fast...and the GM won't have a word to say.
     
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    Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

    In Response to Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?:
    [QUOTE]Roy Oswalt? ROFL! Good one.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    Yeah why have Roy Oswalt when we can have Lackey and Wakefield battling the Chicken & Beer King Beckett for the #1 spot on the Sox pitching staff?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

    You've been cr*pping of Theo for five years, and your big ideas are to trade Buchholz for Roy Oswalt and to magically acquire Doug Fister and use him as a sixth starter?  No wonder everybody has you on ignore.
     
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    Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

    In Response to Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?:
    [QUOTE]You've been cr*pping of Theo for five years, and your big ideas are to trade Buchholz for Roy Oswalt and to magically acquire Doug Fister and use him as a sixth starter?  No wonder everybody has you on ignore.
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    I've been ripping Theo Epstein for five years?
    Wrong. I've called for Theo Epstein's firing from day one.

    But okay, I'll play along. How have the Red Sox done with Theo in full control of Sox player personnel decisions in the last 5 years?

    2006 - Epstein trashed the 2004 WS champs who could have easily repeated in '05. Lucchino retakes the reigns, brings in Lowell and Beckett.

    2007 - Red Sox win the World Series, powered by Manny, Lowell and Beckett, players Theo had NO role in bringing here.

    2008 - Theo rules Sox with an iron fist, botches the offseason deal for Johan Santana by refusing to trade Buchholz, runs Manny out of town to LA where Manny hit .500 and carried the Dodgers into the playoffs by himself. Sox LOSE the ALCS while the best pitcher in MLB in 2008 and the best hitter in MLB the 2nd half of 2008 are watching on television.

    2009 - The start of Theo's bridge to nowhere.

    2010 - Another fruitless season.

    2011 - The collapse of the Red Sox and the grand opening of Lackey's Chicken and Beer Shack in the Red Sox dugout.

    ALL on Theo's watch.

    And I was nice...not mentioning the BOTCHED deals for Teixiera, Theo losing Roy Halladay TWICE, Theo botching the VMart deal that would have gotten us Cliff Lee if Theo had thrown in Buchholz, Theo botching the VMart deal that got VMart to Detroit and the Red Sox another season of Varitek, the Lackey signing, Carl Crawford, Matt Clement, Wade Miller, Brad Penny, Eric Gagne, John Smoltz, Wily Mo Pena, Bill Hall, botching the Beltre deal, the Mike Lowell disaster, Jason Bay, JD Drew, Ramon Ramirez...Boof Bonser, Julio Lugo, Edgar Renteria...

    Getting the picture yet?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from OurMan. Show OurMan's posts

    Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

    In Response to Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?:
    [QUOTE]You've been cr*pping of Theo for five years, and your big ideas are to trade Buchholz for Roy Oswalt and to magically acquire Doug Fister and use him as a sixth starter?  No wonder everybody has you on ignore.
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    I didn't say the Sox should trade Buchholz for Doug Fister. Theo Epstein could have gotten Doug Fister THIS season without trading anybody. (Yet another Theo failure)

    What I DID say was that Oswalt is out there, so is Doug Fister for 2012.

    Theo's experiment of a 6 man sabermetrics rotation is a bust. Look at the teams that are still playing...how many starters did they run out there?

    It's time to exorcise Theo Epstein and sabermetrics from the Red Sox organization forever.
     
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    Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

      Just asking, I keep hearing that Theo shouldn't get credit for '04 since many of the players were aquired by Douquette, these same people conviently forget the Schilling and Nomar trades by the way. So when the Sox win it all in '12 Theo will be vindicated and get the accolades that come with winning the WS.
     
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    Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

    In Response to Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season? : I didn't say the Sox should trade Buchholz for Doug Fister. Theo Epstein could have gotten Doug Fister THIS season without trading anybody. (Yet another Theo failure) What I DID say was that Oswalt is out there, so is Doug Fister for 2012. Theo's experiment of a 6 man sabermetrics rotation is a bust. Look at the teams that are still playing...how many starters did they run out there? It's time to exorcise Theo Epstein and sabermetrics from the Red Sox organization forever.
    Posted by OurMan[/QUOTE]

    Roy Oswalt is due to make 16 Million in 2012, why would you want to trade for him? He has not been able to stay on the field and is WAY over priced. And I beleive Fister is under the Tigers control for the next 3-4 seasons if I am not mistaken.
     
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    Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

    In Response to Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?:
    [QUOTE]  Just asking, I keep hearing that Theo shouldn't get credit for '04 since many of the players were aquired by Douquette, these same people conviently forget the Schilling and Nomar trades by the way. So when the Sox win it all in '12 Theo will be vindicated and get the accolades that come with winning the WS.
    Posted by attic-dan[/QUOTE]

    Theo Epstein was the paid escort sent by Lucchino and the Sox ownership to sweep Schilling off his feet and close the deal.  The Red Sox did the same thing, sending Theo to close the deal with Teixiera and A-Rod...both flopped.

    So we know Schill came to Boston because Schill wanted to be here, not because Theo flashed a dimple and a wink.

    If the Red Sox even make the postseason in 2012, it will be without Lackey, Varitek, Wakefield and Crawford. The new Sox GM and manager will have to strip Epstein away from this team completely.

    The Red Sox may have the $$ but Red Sox Nation doesn't have the time to play moneyball in 2012.

     
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    Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

     
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    Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

    In Response to Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season? : Roy Oswalt is due to make 16 Million in 2012, why would you want to trade for him? He has not been able to stay on the field and is WAY over priced. And I beleive Fister is under the Tigers control for the next 3-4 seasons if I am not mistaken.
    Posted by gbman87603[/QUOTE]

    I thought the Tigers got Fister at the 2011 trade deadline and his status would be finalized after the season. If the Tigers have already locked up Fister (a wise move) then we can't get him and Theo BLEW it again in 2011.
     
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    Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

    In Response to Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season? : Theo Epstein was the paid escort sent by Lucchino and the Sox ownership to sweep Schilling off his feet and close the deal.  The Red Sox did the same thing, sending Theo to close the deal with Teixiera and A-Rod...both flopped. So we know Schill came to Boston because Schill wanted to be here, not because Theo flashed a dimple and a wink. If the Red Sox even make the postseason in 2012, it will be without Lackey, Varitek, Wakefield and Crawford. The new Sox GM and manager will have to strip Epstein away from this team completely. The Red Sox may have the $$ but Red Sox Nation doesn't have the time to play moneyball in 2012.
    Posted by OurMan[/QUOTE]
       We have different versions of history, Theo brang out stats showing Fenway was not a HR haven that Schilling thought it was ,him being a fly ball pitcher, I'd say he and the organization did their due dilligence on that one. The players union squashed the A-Rod deal, by not oking a contract cut. Third with Teixera I  believe the  deal went south once Lucchino and his abrasive personality entered the negotiations.
     
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    Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

    In Response to Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season? : I've been ripping Theo Epstein for five years? Wrong. I've called for Theo Epstein's firing from day one. But okay, I'll play along. How have the Red Sox done with Theo in full control of Sox player personnel decisions in the last 5 years? 2006 - Epstein trashed the 2004 WS champs who could have easily repeated in '05. Lucchino retakes the reigns, brings in Lowell and Beckett. 2007 - Red Sox win the World Series, powered by Manny, Lowell and Beckett, players Theo had NO role in bringing here. 2008 - Theo rules Sox with an iron fist, botches the offseason deal for Johan Santana by refusing to trade Buchholz, runs Manny out of town to LA where Manny hit .500 and carried the Dodgers into the playoffs by himself. Sox LOSE the ALCS while the best pitcher in MLB in 2008 and the best hitter in MLB the 2nd half of 2008 are watching on television. 2009 - The start of Theo's bridge to nowhere. 2010 - Another fruitless season. 2011 - The collapse of the Red Sox and the grand opening of Lackey's Chicken and Beer Shack in the Red Sox dugout. ALL on Theo's watch. And I was nice...not mentioning the BOTCHED deals for Teixiera, Theo losing Roy Halladay TWICE, Theo botching the VMart deal that would have gotten us Cliff Lee if Theo had thrown in Buchholz, Theo botching the VMart deal that got VMart to Detroit and the Red Sox another season of Varitek, the Lackey signing, Carl Crawford, Matt Clement, Wade Miller, Brad Penny, Eric Gagne, John Smoltz, Wily Mo Pena, Bill Hall, botching the Beltre deal, the Mike Lowell disaster, Jason Bay, JD Drew, Ramon Ramirez...Boof Bonser, Julio Lugo, Edgar Renteria... Getting the picture yet?
    Posted by OurMan[/QUOTE]

    Wow, where to start ...

    So you consider the following failures of Theo:

    1) Not signing Pedro to a 4 year contract in which he averaged just over 100 IP / year with the Mets. (The Sox received Buchholz as a compensation pick, who is now the centerpiece of all your trade proposals).

    2) Not re-signing Lowe after posting a 5.32 ERA in 2004.

    3) Not re-signing Orlando Cabrera, who can't seem to stay anywhere more than a year (Jacoby Ellsbury compensation pick, by the way)

    4) Not trading Buchholz (who you wouldn't have had to trade to begin with - see #1) for Johan Santana and the chance to sign him to a 6 yr / $140M deal?

    5) Trading Manny after his team-mates voted him off the team by a 24-1 vote?  You do realize that immediately after Manny's 'surge' came three positive tests for PEDs - do you think maybe he had something to prove?

    6) Our 1B, who is hitting 85 points higher than the Carlos Pena clone that Mark Teixeira has become in recent years.

    7) Signing Beltre to a one-year deal where he was paid 20% of his value, and we received Blake Swihart when he walked?

    If you truly consider these failures, what more is there to discuss?

     
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    Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

    In Response to Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season? : I didn't say the Sox should trade Buchholz for Doug Fister. Theo Epstein could have gotten Doug Fister THIS season without trading anybody. (Yet another Theo failure) What I DID say was that Oswalt is out there, so is Doug Fister for 2012. Theo's experiment of a 6 man sabermetrics rotation is a bust. Look at the teams that are still playing...how many starters did they run out there? It's time to exorcise Theo Epstein and sabermetrics from the Red Sox organization forever.
    Posted by OurMan[/QUOTE]

    Fister was already under team control through 2015 - his last arb year.  Just for giggles, how did you propose we get Fister without trading anybody?


     
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    Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

    you can't be a ghost unless your dead.
     
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    Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

    In Response to Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season? : Wow, where to start ... So you consider the following failures of Theo: 1) Not signing Pedro to a 4 year contract in which he averaged just over 100 IP / year with the Mets. (The Sox received Buchholz as a compensation pick, who is now the centerpiece of all your trade proposals). 2) Not re-signing Lowe after posting a 5.32 ERA in 2004. 3) Not re-signing Orlando Cabrera, who can't seem to stay anywhere more than a year (Jacoby Ellsbury compensation pick, by the way) 4) Not trading Buchholz (who you wouldn't have had to trade to begin with - see #1) for Johan Santana and the chance to sign him to a 6 yr / $140M deal? 5) Trading Manny after his team-mates voted him off the team by a 24-1 vote?  You do realize that immediately after Manny's 'surge' came three positive tests for PEDs - do you think maybe he had something to prove? 6) Our 1B, who is hitting 85 points higher than the Carlos Pena clone that Mark Teixeira has become in recent years. 7) Signing Beltre to a one-year deal where he was paid 20% of his value, and we received Blake Swihart when he walked? If you truly consider these failures, what more is there to discuss?
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]

    I don't care what packaging Clay Buchholz came in, what he is today is the reason why the Red Sox didn't get Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee or Johan Santana...that makes Buchholz a waste.

    There's NO justification for Theo blowing the Mark Teixiera deal, monkey with stats as much as you wish. Teixiera on the Red Sox batting order in 2009, 2010 and 2011 would have made a Manny-in-his-heyday sized difference.

    I don't care when Manny's surge came. What I do know is that the Red Sox were anemic in the 2008 ALCS, a postseason the Red Sox would have cruised through had we had a decent GM.

    Johan Santana was the BEST pitcher in MLB in 2008. Given Wakefield flopping around in the infield like a fish against the Rays in 2008, Chicken & Beer Beckett's injuries and Lester not being strong enough to carry the Sox in the '08 postseason, what would it have meant for the Red Sox to have the 2 time AL Cy Young winning MLB pitcher in 2008 that had the most innings pitched and most strikeouts and lowest ERA as the ace of the Red Sox staff?

    Answer: It would have meant a 2nd World Series title in a row.

    Theo Epstein took a team that should have won SIX World Series titles in the 2000s and ruined it.

    Period.
     
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    Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

    In Response to Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?:
    [QUOTE]you can't be a ghost unless your dead.
    Posted by Hammah29r2[/QUOTE]

    If you're measuring brain cells in Theo Epstein's head, I still win.
     
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    Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

    In Response to Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season? : If you're measuring brain cells in Theo Epstein's head, I still win.
    Posted by OurMan[/QUOTE]
     
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    Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?

    In Response to Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Will The Ghost of Theo Epstein Ruin The 2012 Season? : I don't care what packaging Clay Buchholz came in, what he is today is the reason why the Red Sox didn't get Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee or Johan Santana...that makes Buchholz a waste. There's NO justification for Theo blowing the Mark Teixiera deal, monkey with stats as much as you wish. Teixiera on the Red Sox batting order in 2009, 2010 and 2011 would have made a Manny-in-his-heyday sized difference. I don't care when Manny's surge came. What I do know is that the Red Sox were anemic in the 2008 ALCS, a postseason the Red Sox would have cruised through had we had a decent GM. Johan Santana was the BEST pitcher in MLB in 2008. Given Wakefield flopping around in the infield like a fish against the Rays in 2008, Chicken & Beer Beckett's injuries and Lester not being strong enough to carry the Sox in the '08 postseason, what would it have meant for the Red Sox to have the 2 time AL Cy Young winning MLB pitcher in 2008 that had the most innings pitched and most strikeouts and lowest ERA as the ace of the Red Sox staff? Answer: It would have meant a 2nd World Series title in a row. Theo Epstein took a team that should have won SIX World Series titles in the 2000s and ruined it. Period.
    Posted by OurMan[/QUOTE]

    If you think Santana is worth $140M for one post-season series, how come you're not a huge JD Drew fan?  He hit .360 in the 2007 ALCS against Cleveland - isn't that the same principal?

    Here's another one for you - what would have happened in the 2004 ALCS without Theo contributions Ortiz, Foulke, Schilling & Roberts?  If you need help with that one, see every Red Sox post-season from 1919 - 2003.


     

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