Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

    My answer is the same as Jose Tavares'.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from RSF4Life234. Show RSF4Life234's posts

    Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

    In Response to Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?:
    [QUOTE]My answer is the same as Jose Tavares'.
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]

    CoolCool
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

    He didnt built the Red Sox team by himself.  He worked closely with Larry L., Henry, Ted W along with former assistant GM's.   Theo was lucky to work with all these talent staffs.

    Without them, Theo would have no clue on how to build a good Red Sox team.


     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

    In Response to Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?:
    [QUOTE]He didnt built the Red Sox team by himself.  He worked closely with Larry L., Henry, Ted W along with former assistant GM's.   Theo was lucky to work with all these talent staffs. Without them, Theo would have no clue on how to build a good Red Sox team.
    Posted by GoUconn13[/QUOTE]

    Not to mention a healthy jumpstart from the much-maligned Dan Duquette.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

    In Response to Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago? : Not to mention a healthy jumpstart from the much-maligned Dan Duquette.
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]

    Dan Duquette's Orioles vs. Theo's Cubs.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

    Everybody gets fixated on the busts but forget all the successes. They exaggerate the so-called failures, overlook simple bad luck and make it sound like he's the only GM who has signed high-priced free agents who didn't work out. It wasn't Theo who signed Kevin Brown, Jason Schmidt, Vernon Wells, etc. and many other busts throughout the free agent era (Wayne Garland, Steve Kemp, etc.).

    In fact, if he's feels he can be patient and avoid high-priced free agent, it might help him.

    And I love when people rip him for getting "fixated" on a player. What GM doesn't. They talk to scouts and read reports and target players they like. Isn't that the essence of being a GM.

    The guy was a key member of a front office team that built two World Series winners. So why can't fans simply say thank you and wish him well.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

    In Response to Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago? : Dan Duquette's Orioles vs. Theo's Cubs.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    Oh, now we are talking.  Juicy.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

    In Response to Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?:
    [QUOTE]Everybody gets fixated on the busts but forget all the successes. They exaggerate the so-called failures, overlook simple bad luck and make it sound like he's the only GM who has signed high-priced free agents who didn't work out. It wasn't Theo who signed Kevin Brown, Jason Schmidt, Vernon Wells, etc. and many other busts throughout the free agent era (Wayne Garland, Steve Kemp, etc.). In fact, if he's feels he can be patient and avoid high-priced free agent, it might help him. And I love when people rip him for getting "fixated" on a player. What GM doesn't. They talk to scouts and read reports and target players they like. Isn't that the essence of being a GM. The guy was a key member of a front office team that built two World Series winners. So why can't fans simply say thank you and wish him well.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    Vintage Theo apologist argument.... But other GM's have F'ed up too!!! If all your friends gave 40 million dollars to Julio Lugo, would you do it too?

    Theo missed very, very badly and with increasing frequency before slinking away and leaving a mess for other people to sort out. 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

    In Response to Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago? : Vintage Theo apologist argument.... But other GM's have F'ed up too!!! If all your friends gave 40 million dollars to Julio Lugo, would you do it too? Theo missed very, very badly and with increasing frequency before slinking away and leaving a mess for other people to sort out. 
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    I can go along with the notion that Theo missed "with increasing frequency before slinking away and leaving a mess".  

    But, not all misses are on the GM.  Sure, Theo threw too much money, in an act of big-market heavy-handedness, at Julio Lugo.  But Julio Lugo came in and just screwed the pooch.  Some players just can't hack Beantown.  Lugo was a prime example.  Towards the end of his Sox tenure, he actually got back to playing ok ball.  But, he wilted.  Maybe Theo should have seen that coming, in the same way he could have seen it coming with Crawford.  Should have done some more indepth Myers-Briggs testing or something.  Renteria?  Same thing.  
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

    In Response to Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago? : Vintage Theo apologist argument.... But other GM's have F'ed up too!!! If all your friends gave 40 million dollars to Julio Lugo, would you do it too? Theo missed very, very badly and with increasing frequency before slinking away and leaving a mess for other people to sort out. 
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    Vintage simple-minded response. Whoever defended the Lugo signing? Who ever said he didn't miss badly with recent signings?

    But it's nice how you forget Ortiz, Mueller, Millar, Schilling, Lester, Ellsbury, Pedroia, Aceves, Salty (looking pretty good so far), Gonzalez, Aviles, Buchholz, Bard, Morales, Timlin, Cabrera, Ellsbury, Bellhorn, possibly Lavarnway, Middlebrooks, etc., etc., etc. 

    The longer a GM sticks around the longer the lists of hits and misses are. Theo deserves every bit of criticism for Crawford. (Lackey might still be salvagable as pitchers often bounce back strong from Tommy John).

    But even if he did cripple the Sox, the Sox also don't win two titles without his moves.

    Yes, saying that other GMs F-ed up too is a legitmate comment, because if you expect a GM to never have embarrassing misses -- especially GMs who have to be aggressive to please a demanding fan base -- then you're living in a fantasy world.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

    In Response to Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago? : Vintage simple-minded response. Whoever defended the Lugo signing? Who ever said he didn't miss badly with recent signings? But it's nice how you forget Ortiz, Mueller, Millar, Schilling, Lester, Ellsbury, Pedroia, Aceves, Salty (looking pretty good so far), Gonzalez, Aviles, Buchholz, Bard, Morales, Timlin, Cabrera, Ellsbury, Bellhorn, possibly Lavarnway, Middlebrooks, etc., etc., etc.  The longer a GM sticks around the longer the lists of hits and misses are. Theo deserves every bit of criticism for Crawford. (Lackey might still be salvagable as pitchers often bounce back strong from Tommy John). But even if he did cripple the Sox, the Sox also don't win two titles without his moves. Yes, saying that other GMs F-ed up too is a legitmate comment, because if you expect a GM to never have embarrassing misses -- especially GMs who have to be aggressive to please a demanding fan base -- then you're living in a fantasy world.
    Posted by royf19[/QUOTE]

    I didn't forget, although most of Theo's good moves were so long ago, you could hardly blame me if I did.  Ortiz, Mueller, Millar, Schilling, etc.... this is a what have you done for me lately business. 

    I've always said Theo deserves tremendous credit for transforming the farm system, although I think listing Ellsbury twice is a bit excessive.

    You can list away, it isn't going to change the fact that Theo's big money misses are precisely what has let this team down in the past few seasons.  Be it Cameron or Jenks or Lackey or Drew or Crawford or Dice-K or Lowell or Schilling (08) etc.... I'm not going to be impressed by a GM who is right some of the time.  Anyone can be right some of the time.  And I'm definitely not going to be impressed by a GM, who due to financial resources, has a huge advantage over a majority of the league yet places 3rd in the division in consecutive seasons.

    But mom Billy's dad let him pay Lackey 80 million dollars.....
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

    In Response to Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago? : Not to mention a healthy jumpstart from the much-maligned Dan Duquette.
    Posted by SpacemanEephus[/QUOTE]

    True!!
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

    I didn't forget, although most of Theo's good moves were so long ago, you could hardly blame me if I did.  Ortiz, Mueller, Millar, Schilling, etc.... this is a what have you done for me lately business.  

    So true.

    Theo did a great job building the farm and using the left-over farm pieces from Dan D. to get some key players. I started a thread once about all of Theo's major moves after the Nomar trade.  Not pretty.

    That's a lot of years of "what have you done for me lately".
     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

    In Response to Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago? : I didn't forget, although most of Theo's good moves were so long ago, you could hardly blame me if I did.  Ortiz, Mueller, Millar, Schilling, etc.... this is a what have you done for me lately business.  I've always said Theo deserves tremendous credit for transforming the farm system, although I think listing Ellsbury twice is a bit excessive. You can list away, it isn't going to change the fact that Theo's big money misses are precisely what has let this team down in the past few seasons.  Be it Cameron or Jenks or Lackey or Drew or Crawford or Dice-K or Lowell or Schilling (08) etc.... I'm not going to be impressed by a GM who is right some of the time.  Anyone can be right some of the time.  And I'm definitely not going to be impressed by a GM, who due to financial resources, has a huge advantage over a majority of the league yet places 3rd in the division in consecutive seasons. But mom Billy's dad let him pay Lackey 80 million dollars.....
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    The bold is exactly what I'm saying about exxagerating, overlooking the luck factor. The jury still is out for Lackey, but while I didn't like the years on the contract, Lackey was considered a good pitcher and was paid market value. He was better than given credit for in 2010 and might still contribute in the next couple of years. And if I'm correct, wasn't the concern with him his shoulder, not elbow. 

    People bash Drew but for the first four years, there are many metics that show he wasn't overpaid. You might not agree and I never liked the contract, but all that shows is people have different opinions of market value.

    Cameron was short-term and was in great shape. That he had the oblique injury was bad luck. It's ridiculous to expect GMs to predict that injury. Just like the various injuries in 2010, all of which had nothing to do with being in shape (except Beckett), were the reason for the third-place finish that year.

    DiceK -- it wasn't like the Sox were the only ones bidding. He was highly thought of throughout the league, and the only teams that didn't bid for him were teams that simply didn't have the money. It doesn't make a small-market GM a genius for not signing DiceK simply because he didn't have the resources.

    Lowell -- he was productive for the first two years of that three-year deal, and the injury that slowed him was something you couldn't predict. He wasn't that old when he signed that thee-year deal and was a player who stayed in shape and didn't have an injury history.

    By your standards, there isn't a good GM in baseball. The only reason some GMs don't have high-priced failures is because they don't have the money to begin with. Name me a GM who isn't right some of the time and never misses.

    And the third-place finish last year had less to do with overall talent and more to do with injuries (Buch and Youk) that can't be predicted and intangibles (clubhouse) which again can't be predicted by a GM.

    The attitude that simply because a GM has a big budget means he's never going to miss is ludicrous. Again, name me a big-market GM who doesn't have embarrassing failures. Because they have the budget, they're expected to be aggressive going after proven veterans. 

    Big-market GMs are dmned if they do and dmned if they don't. Fans will rip them for not spending but when they do and the player doesn't pan out, they get ripped. 

    Picking players isn't an exact science, regardless of your budget.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

    Yes, I failed to accurately figure in the "luck factor".  What was I thinking? 

    We can both go through and rationalize or debunk each individual signing that you listed above, it proves nothing, and it has been done 1,000 times by both sides of the argument.

    It is a results based business and to try to justify Cameron, based on results, is pitiful.  The fact that you can just gloss over 18 million down the drain on "short term" proves how big an advantage a Red Sox GM has.  Not to mention the fact that it left a hole on the roster, which is if I'm not mistaken, the GM's job.

    Lowell was good for 1 1/2 years of his deal, lets be honest at least.  Where was he in the 2009 post season?  Answer, sitting next to Schilling in the dugout.

    The basic premise of what you're saying is "it is all chance".  Injuries happen... not the GM's fault.  Old guys (Cameron, Lowell) get hurt, not the GM's fault.  Bad clubhouse attitudes, not the GM's fault.  Guys don't play up to contracts, happens to everyone.  Big money players fall flat, happens to everyone.  When people use the term "apologist" this is the definition of what they're talking about.  Where is the accountability?  By your rationale Theo got lucky on his good moves and unlucky on the bad one's.  Maybe the next GM interview process should just be a Rock, Paper, Scissors tournament.

    By your logic, there are no good or bad GM's because everyone makes mistakes and it is all just chance anyways.  By my logic, the guy with the second most resources in MLB should be held to reasonable standards, expected to have foresight and not pay 10's of millions annually to guys who don't play for the team.

     
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    Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

    With Theo you take the good with the bad. I still think Theo should have taken Crawford with him when he moved to Chicago (my idea of significant compensation)

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

    In Response to Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?:
    [QUOTE]Yes, I failed to accurately figure in the "luck factor".  What was I thinking?  We can both go through and rationalize or debunk each individual signing that you listed above, it proves nothing, and it has been done 1,000 times by both sides of the argument. It is a results based business and to try to justify Cameron, based on results, is pitiful.  The fact that you can just gloss over 18 million down the drain on "short term" proves how big an advantage a Red Sox GM has.  Not to mention the fact that it left a hole on the roster, which is if I'm not mistaken, the GM's job. Lowell was good for 1 1/2 years of his deal, lets be honest at least.  Where was he in the 2009 post season?  Answer, sitting next to Schilling in the dugout. The basic premise of what you're saying is "it is all chance".  Injuries happen... not the GM's fault.  Old guys (Cameron, Lowell) get hurt, not the GM's fault.  Bad clubhouse attitudes, not the GM's fault.  Guys don't play up to contracts, happens to everyone.  Big money players fall flat, happens to everyone.  When people use the term "apologist" this is the definition of what they're talking about.  Where is the accountability?  By your rationale Theo got lucky on his good moves and unlucky on the bad one's.  Maybe the next GM interview process should just be a Rock, Paper, Scissors tournament. By your logic, there are no good or bad GM's because everyone makes mistakes and it is all just chance anyways.  By my logic, the guy with the second most resources in MLB should be held to reasonable standards, expected to have foresight and not pay 10's of millions annually to guys who don't play for the team.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    It is a results based business and to try to justify Cameron, based on results, is pitiful.  The fact that you can just gloss over 18 million down the drain on "short term" proves how big an advantage a Red Sox GM has.  Not to mention the fact that it left a hole on the roster, which is if I'm not mistaken, the GM's job.

    It's not glossing over as much as it is recognizing that you couldn't predict Cameron's injury.  That's 20/20 hindsight. I'm not going to rip a GM for not prediction injury. 

    Lowell was good for 1 1/2 years of his deal, lets be honest at least.  Where was he in the 2009 post season?  

    So Theo should have known that Lowell was going sustain a hip injury. It wasn't exactly anything he had a history of. I didn't know a crystal ball came with the job. 

    The basic premise of what you're saying is "it is all chance". 

    No that's not my basic premise to say it's ALL chance. But there are many things out of the control of GMs. Sticking your head in the sand and ignoring that basic fact doesn't make it less true.

    Old guys (Cameron, Lowell) get hurt, not the GM's fault. 

    Lowell was 33 when he signed his last contract. That's old? So what, once a guy turns 31 or 32, the GM shouldn't sign a guy anymore. Cameron was 37 when the Sox signed him. Damon was 37 when the Rays signed him last year. So Theo is a lousy GM for not predicting Cameron's injury, but Friedman is a genius becaue Damon stayed healthy. Excellent logic.

    When people use the term "apologist" this is the definition of what they're talking about. 

    No. It's used by people who can't rationally justify all their arguments so they're forced to use meaningless labels. Explaining why some things worked, some didn't and using critical analysis isn't being an apologist. It's using your brain to understand the complete picture.

     By your rationale Theo got lucky on his good moves and unlucky on the bad one's.

    Again with twisting my meaning. All that I'm saying is that luck does play a part in moves. We all say now that Ortiz was a great signing. But what if he got drilled in the head in 2005 and his career was suddenly done. Should Theo have foreseen that or was it simply an unlucky event.

    By your logic, there are no good or bad GM's because everyone makes mistakes and it is all just chance anyways. 

    This is exactly my point. You can't simply use rational arguements, you have to resort to exxagertions.  Sure there are good GMs and bad GMs. But you have to keep a clear head and not paint things in simplistic terms. You have to look at the entire picture and put things in context.

    If a teacher gives a test to a class of 4.0 honor students and the best grade is a 65, do we say that student is stupid. Or do we look at the big picture and understand that it must have been an extremely hard test because no one did better. That's what I mean by looking at all GMs. I'm not saying Theo was the smartest GM. I'm saying that if all GMs have their fair share of bad signings or deals, it doesn't exactly put Theo on an island.

    By my logic, the guy with the second most resources in MLB should be held to reasonable standards, 

    Yes reasonable standards. Cherry-picking the bad signings, not looking at the total picture on why they didn't work out and overlooking all the good moves isn't a reasonable standard.

    to have foresight

    What does that mean? That because he has a big budget, he should know what players will get hurt and what players won't.

    I'm have my issues with Theo. Crawford, even at 100 percent, was a horrible signing. And I thought the Lugo signing was stupid. And because of the way last year ended, I am highly critical of his leaving instead of working to get things straightened out. And there are other things I didn't agree with. But I can be critical of him in these areas without taking out the broad brush and paint over all the good moves he made.



     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from michaelsjr. Show michaelsjr's posts

    Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

    Theo is no baseball wizard in my book.  For every positive move, there was an equally negative one.  How he fares in Chicago is yet to be seen.  Cubbies in the cellar at present and he's telling them to "be patient" as if 104 years isn't patient.  Don't wish him or Cubs any hard luck, but the way he left Boston after spending the cap on DL players makes it hard to remember him with fond regards.

    My vote was "I don't care".

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

    It's not glossing over as much as it is recognizing that you couldn't predict Cameron's injury.  That's 20/20 hindsight. I'm not going to rip a GM for not prediction injury.

    And this is the apologist attitude that I dislike the most.  GM's get paid a lot of money to have foresight, not to hide behind 20/20 hindsight everytime something goes wrong.  Having foresight doesn't have anything to do with payroll size but most GM's don't have the luxury to spend their way out of previous bad moves the way Theo did.  See sunk costs, Lugo, Renteria, Cameron, Jenks, Schilling(08), Lowell (09).

    In the specific case of Cameron, yeah, you could definitely predict injury with an old OF.  Theo himself said as much at the press conference to introduce Cameron but that Cameron was different b/c he was a 'genetic freak' or something like that. 

    Yes reasonable standards. Cherry-picking the bad signings, not looking at the total picture on why they didn't work out and overlooking all the good moves isn't a reasonable standard.

    False.  I am looking total picture, total picture being  2 consecutive years out of the play-offs, you want to "cherry pick" that and chalk it up to injuries and bad luck signings.  The reasonable standard is success and in a league with no real salary restrictions, the team that spends the second most should not be a 3rd place team.  That is absolutely a "reasonable expectation".

    I'm saying that if all GMs have their fair share of bad signings or deals, it doesn't exactly put Theo on an island.

    I'm sorry but the "they do it too" defense is just lame and this is where the payroll does become a factor because Theo had the luxury to keep spending his way out of his previous mistakes, where as some GM's would hamstring their teams with a single Lugo, DiceK, Drew, Lackey, etc... type deal.

     When Theo is spending the entire Rays payroll on Lackey, Cameron, Drew and Jenks and then finishing behind the Rays, I'll hold him accountable and you can chalk it up to chance or bad luck and tell me I'm not seeing the big picture.  But be aware, I will call you a Theo Apologist.


     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

    I expect Theo to build an excellent farm system for the Cubbies, which is the one area where you can say he really excelled with the Sox. Color me an apologist, but I don't think it's a coincidence that Middlebrooks is kicking down the door to the bigs while we have what may be an even better 3B prospect in high A ball. If Theo can stay away from the big ticket FAs the Cubbies could be very good in a few years. It will also be interesting to see how Theo's Cubs do vs. the Duke's Os. I've always said that Dan doesn't get the respect here he deserves. He was the guy after all, who brought in Manny, Nomar, Youk and Pedro. Duke also pulled off what I consider to be the all time greatest heist in baseball history; Heathcliff Slocumb for Varitek and Lowe.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

    Good question, one I can't answer.  The GM business is very, very competitive these days, and he has to bring the Cubs a long way back.  But I look at the Nationals, who finished last season with almost an 81-81 record,  think back over the many years in Washington and at Montreal when they were just horrible, and have to say anything is possible.

    It does appear that the best and quickest way to success is young pitching, the kind you can't get through free agency or a trade. 
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

    Not sure that Theo can assemble a winning team, but I would really like to see the Cubs win a championship.  A franchise that hasn't won for over 100 years deserves to win a championship soon.  Imagine if we were still waiting for another World Series championship in Boston. 
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: Will Theo assemble a winner in Chicago?

    The Cubs were the best team in the N.L. in 2008, following up a 2007 play-off performance.  So it isn't like this team is that far removed from success.

    We're talking about 1 of the most popular teams in the country and a team that is in the top tier in NL in terms of resources, so yes, of course a winner can be built at Wrigley.  They had one 3 years ago.

    Theo didn't go to KC, Pittsburgh or Baltimore. 
     

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