1. You have chosen to ignore posts from joel49. Show joel49's posts

    Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/16/2011 12:58 PM EDT

    Sox philosophy of working the count is not working (except for Youk). Too many 0-2 and 1-2 counts and then feeble swings for K's. Swing at that first pitch strike, and if it's a ball, then swing at that second pitch strike. Change it up. Every pitcher in the league knows they're taking. Swing on 3-0 or 3-1 with RISP. Too many meatballs being passed up.
     

  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/16/2011 1:17 PM EDT

    abso correct....hitting is hard enough when the pitches are there
     

  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/16/2011 2:12 PM EDT

    That's why you need a game plan and you also have to know when to adjust.
     

  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from joel49. Show joel49's posts

    Re: Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/16/2011 2:23 PM EDT

    Of course.  But when you're going as badly as these guys are, you need to shake things up.  Every game is different, of course, but when team after team pours first pitch fastballs in there, it's time to take advantage of it.

    Remember the playoff game against the Angels two seasons ago when Jared Weaver beat us (3-0, I think)?  He threw something like twelve straight first pitch FB's and not one was swung at.  At some point you've got to make the adjustment. 
     

  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from devildavid. Show devildavid's posts

    Re: Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/16/2011 3:26 PM EDT

    I'm thinking the same as you Joel. It may be possible to have a team with too many "work the count" batters. A few free swingers like Adrian Beltre might be a needed ingredient on the team.
     

  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from BaseballGM. Show BaseballGM's posts

    Re: Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/16/2011 3:40 PM EDT

    Most Red Sox hitters are urged to take the first pitch. Pedroia does it almost every time. Opposing pitchers know it and they are getting free smooth toss rope strikes down the middle on the first pitch.

    Great thread!
     

  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/16/2011 3:49 PM EDT

    Drew and Youk are the poster boys for taking strikes then either whiffing or swinging at chit.
     

  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/16/2011 3:53 PM EDT

    As a general rule, working the pitch count as worked out well for the Sox over the years. But it's like anything in any sport. If the opposition knows your tendancies, not matter how much of a strength it might be, it can eventually work against you.

    The key is for the players to mix up their normal patience by being more aggressive at times.
     

  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from digger0862. Show digger0862's posts

    Re: Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/16/2011 3:54 PM EDT

    It would seem to be an easy fix.

    Opposing pitchers know Sox batters are taking pitches so they are throwing strikes early in the count. Since Sox batters know opposing pitchers are throwing strikes early in the count, they should be swinging.

    Is it this obvious?
     

  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/16/2011 4:07 PM EDT

    It's not that simple; it's more of a cat & mouse game.
     

  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxpride34. Show redsoxpride34's posts

    Re: Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/16/2011 5:54 PM EDT

    nhsteven, its not that hard, if you are a smart hitter and you know that pitchers are throwing you first pitch strikes then swing. You goal as a hitter is to swing at and hit the best pitch during a given at bat. If that pitch is the first pitch then so be it, you have done your job. You have to make adjustments as a hitter in order to be successful. This team has failed to do just that and as a result is struggling to score runs. 
     

  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/16/2011 6:20 PM EDT

    In Response to Working the count is not working:
    Sox philosophy of working the count is not working (except for Youk). Too many 0-2 and 1-2 counts and then feeble swings for K's. Swing at that first pitch strike, and if it's a ball, then swing at that second pitch strike. Change it up. Every pitcher in the league knows they're taking. Swing on 3-0 or 3-1 with RISP. Too many meatballs being passed up.
    Posted by joel49
    That's what I always loved about Nomar. He never took a strike.
     

  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/16/2011 7:03 PM EDT

    The bottom line is they aren't adjusting.  The poster boy for this is DJ Drew.......
     

  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from YOU-KILL-US20. Show YOU-KILL-US20's posts

    Re: Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/16/2011 7:45 PM EDT

    In Response to Working the count is not working:
    Sox philosophy of working the count is not working (except for Youk). Too many 0-2 and 1-2 counts and then feeble swings for K's. Swing at that first pitch strike, and if it's a ball, then swing at that second pitch strike. Change it up. Every pitcher in the league knows they're taking. Swing on 3-0 or 3-1 with RISP. Too many meatballs being passed up.
    Posted by joel49


    thanks for this thread, great minds think alike.
     

  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/16/2011 7:52 PM EDT

    wade boggs
     

  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/16/2011 8:02 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Working the count is not working:
    It's not that simple; it's more of a cat & mouse game.
    Posted by nhsteven


    EXACTLY!

    The book on Boston approach is to work the count.
    So, pitchers are trying to take advantage of this.
    Sooner or later, patterns develop and adjustments will be made.
    Once opposing pitchers no longer feel comfortable throwing meatballs on their initial pitch, it'll swing the other way.

    It's all cat & mouse.
     

  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/16/2011 9:21 PM EDT

    In Response to Re: Working the count is not working:
    nhsteven, its not that hard, if you are a smart hitter and you know that pitchers are throwing you first pitch strikes then swing. You goal as a hitter is to swing at and hit the best pitch during a given at bat. If that pitch is the first pitch then so be it, you have done your job. You have to make adjustments as a hitter in order to be successful. This team has failed to do just that and as a result is struggling to score runs. 
    Posted by redsoxpride34


    Disagree; pitchers & catchers change on every PA; hence my post.
     

  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxpride34. Show redsoxpride34's posts

    Re: Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/16/2011 9:29 PM EDT

    Ya its game, and in any game you need to make adjustments to be successful if your strategy is not working. Starting every at bat down a strike is not a good strategy and it puts more pressure on the opposing pitchers to make good pitches when they know they cant just groove one with the first pitch to every batter and get a free strike. 
     

  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/16/2011 9:36 PM EDT

    You just can't "zone it" early in the count. Pitches that look good can dive out of the zone in the last split second. This is less likely to occur later in the count, unless they're pitching around someone. The old Yankees (including Babe Ruth) believed in taking your first strike, (which gives a higher probability of entering a hitters count) in order to get a good pitch later, but swing early now and then (i.e, maybe 20% of the time) to keep them honest. TW did this as well. Hence, cat and mouse.
     

  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from billsrul. Show billsrul's posts

    Re: Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/16/2011 10:57 PM EDT

    I think the umps calling a larger strike zone is also making this strategy not as effective, since now Sox are falling behind more often than getting ahead in the count...
     

  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/17/2011 5:55 AM EDT

    OP "Sox philosophy of working the count is not working (except for Youk)"

    One could argue Youk is the one who should be swinging at the first pitch more.

    2008 - '10

                  OPS count 0 - 0,  OPS overall,  AB:

    Pedroia     .768               .847              85
    Drew       1.032               .874             142
    Youk       1.225               .964               79
    Ellsbury    .734                .806             129
    Ortiz         .851                .854             156
    Scutaro    .675                .736              201

    As with many things generalizations don't stand up well to scrutiny, it is a complex mixed picture more suited to a case by case look.  The Sox benefit from facing more Boone Logan pitches b/c of an above average pitches / PA approach.  I think Youk and Drew should do it more until the pitchers adjust, while Scutaro should do it less often, and Ortiz has it just right.
     

  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from stormcrow7878. Show stormcrow7878's posts

    Re: Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/17/2011 6:20 AM EDT

    Ah yes, using a 12 game sample to decide that working the count is a bad idea! Patient hitters who look for THEIR pitch, and recognize the strike zone are ALWAYS going to be more succesfull than those who don't... give it time, these guys will hit, and when they don't they will still wear down the superior starters and get to the weak underbelly of middle relief. It is a 162 game season and the cream always rises. Approach this season like a Youk at-bat and have some patience.
     

  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from jackyldo. Show jackyldo's posts

    Re: Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/17/2011 7:46 AM EDT

    If everyone in baseball knows  your  taking until the 1st strike  they'll pour one by you and get you down 0-1  to many Sox are getting down  0-2...

    Is this not enough cage work ?  Is it something strategy wise that if the ball is near they  should take a cut ?

    I'd rather see em down 0-1  with a good swing then   just working  counts to accumulate pitches.
     

  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: Working the count is not working

    posted at 4/17/2011 9:18 AM EDT

    I don't think they should ever stop "working the count".  This is part ofthe MO for one of the very best, if not best, offensive machines of the past decade.  It takes good, professional hitters to do this and it puts a lot of pressure on opposing pitchers.  I actually have no problem with the occasional called third strike.  The flip side is a plethora of walks.  BUT, THAT BEING SAID, I do wish they would swing at a few more first strikes.  I do think it has come to the point where the opposition knows these guys are looking at first pitches no matter what and are just pouring in meatballs, knowing there will be no reprocussion.  Harder to work a count from behind all the time.
     

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