Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever

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    Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever

    In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever : Johan is still alive...remember when people wanted Theo to trade Lester and the rest of the farm in order to acquire Johan from the Twins and then give him a big deal?....The Theo bashers always forget that 
    Posted by thepeskypole6[/QUOTE]

    I do and I hated the idea.  Sometimes the best moves are the ones you don't make.  
     
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    In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever : I do and I hated the idea.  Sometimes the best moves are the ones you don't make.  
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]


    too bad theo doesn't have permanent constipation.
     
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    Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever

    In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever : LMAO..so 2004 should have been the third title in a row then?...oh wait... 
    Posted by thepeskypole6[/QUOTE]

    Why was it they didn't win 2003, 2005,2006, 2008, 2009, 2010, ya know if Theo is all powerful and without flaw. 




     
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    Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever

    In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever : Smoltz was an incentive based deal in which he did not reach any of the incentives. It is stupid to lump Smoltz in as a free agent bust. It was a low risk, high reward signing 
    Posted by thepeskypole6[/QUOTE]

    You made me look it up.

    5.5 million base deal with incentives for another 5.  That is only low risk for a few MLB teams.  About 2.75 million per win.  Any impartial observer would have to put that one in the Theo Blunder column.
     
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    Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever

    In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever : Why was it they didn't win 2003, 2005,2006, 2008, 2009, 2010, ya know if Theo is all powerful and without flaw. 
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    don't bother with peskypole; he's either theo himself, or a close member of theo's family.
    btw, crawful just magnifies how good a hitter manny was.
     
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    Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever

    even with all that here we are late in September with a shot at the post season....

    Lackey is without question the worst FA signing by the Red Sox since Jose Offerman, but he also has 3 more years to change that perception.....really some of your guys truly make me laugh with your constant beat down and whining...

    End of the Day....Theo reports to Henry...if Henry feel that Esptein is a liability than he'll fire the guy that's how it works.

    The problem with the Red Sox roster currently is related to injuries and underperfromance...we also have in the interest of trying to win traded some of our best prospects netting Gonzalez and Martinez before him...What is also lost on most of his detractors is that we also lost a blue chipper in Westmoreland...

    Keep the beat downs coming...
     
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    Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever

    In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever : A one year $5.5 million deal for the Red Sox is a very low risk, high reward deal
    Posted by thepeskypole6[/QUOTE]

    But it turned out to have no reward, so it is a wasted 5.5 million in payroll.

     The "for the Red Sox" is really the crux of the Theo debate.  There is no denying that Theo has been at the healm for 2 titles and that on his watch the Red Sox have done wonderful things with their farm systems.  Theo deserves a lot of praise and credit for those things.  But, on 90% of MLB teams Theo's FA mistakes would be crippling.  Most teams could not sustain in five years time contracts like  Drew, Lugo, Dice K, Lackey, Cameron, Lowell, large contracts that yield little to no production.  The Red Sox can sustain it financially but in my opinion, a truly great GM would not miss as big or as often as Theo has. 
     
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    Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever

    In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever : But it turned out to have no reward, so it is a wasted 5.5 million in payroll.  The "for the Red Sox" is really the crux of the Theo debate.  There is no denying that Theo has been at the healm for 2 titles and that on his watch the Red Sox have done wonderful things with their farm systems.  Theo deserves a lot of praise and credit for those things.  But, on 90% of MLB teams Theo's FA mistakes would be crippling.  Most teams could not sustain in five years time contracts like  Drew, Lugo, Dice K, Lackey, Cameron, Lowell, large contracts that yield little to no production.  The Red Sox can sustain it financially but in my opinion, a truly great GM would not miss as big or as often as Theo has. 
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    Lets see we won a championship in 2007 and were 1 game from the WS in 2008 with all but two of the above (Cameron & Lackey)...Not so sure how crippling his FA mistakes have been...

    If we focus soley on this year we lost Matsusaka for the year with an injury, Drew too has been out all year and frankly Cameron was traded for a bucket of balls and hasn't costed us much...

    The big deal both last year and this has been, Lackey who has underperformed and pitched very poorly this year....
     
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    Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever

    In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever:
    [QUOTE]even with all that here we are late in September with a shot at the post season.... Lackey is without question the worst FA signing by the Red Sox since Jose Offerman, but he also has 3 more years to change that perception.....really some of your guys truly make me laugh with your constant beat down and whining... End of the Day....Theo reports to Henry...if Henry feel that Esptein is a liability than he'll fire the guy that's how it works. The problem with the Red Sox roster currently is related to injuries and underperfromance...we also have in the interest of trying to win traded some of our best prospects netting Gonzalez and Martinez before him...What is also lost on most of his detractors is that we also lost a blue chipper in Westmoreland... Keep the beat downs coming...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    hey musicalfruit,

    we already have peskypoland apologizing for theo; you're a redundancy.
     
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    Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever

    In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever : Lets see we won a championship in 2007 and were 1 game from the WS in 2008 with all but two of the above (Cameron & Lackey)...Not so sure how crippling his FA mistakes have been... If we focus soley on this year we lost Matsusaka for the year with an injury, Drew too has been out all year and frankly Cameron was traded for a bucket of balls and hasn't costed us much......
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOT

    Right, which is why I said "would be crippling for most teams".  I fully agree that Henry's deep pockets bail Theo out and keep the Red Sox competitive when Theo swings and misses at high priced, low productivity FA's.

      The Red Sox paid Cameron's salary, that is what he costed us.  And by costed I mean cost.  18 million for essentially zero production. 

     
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    Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever

    In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever : Lets see we won a championship in 2007 and were 1 game from the WS in 2008 with all but two of the above (Cameron & Lackey)...Not so sure how crippling his FA mistakes have been... If we focus soley on this year we lost Matsusaka for the year with an injury, Drew too has been out all year and frankly Cameron was traded for a bucket of balls and hasn't costed us much... The big deal both last year and this has been, Lackey who has underperformed and pitched very poorly this year....
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    Why does everyone use the "We lost DiceK for the year excuse"? His record over the last 3 years is 16-15 with an ERA over 5 and a WHIP in the 1.5 range. Even an average major league pitcher would do better than that. The problem is that Theo hasn't replaced DiceK with any pitcher resembling an average pitcher.
     
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    Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever

    In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever : [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever : Lets see we won a championship in 2007 and were 1 game from the WS in 2008 with all but two of the above (Cameron & Lackey)...Not so sure how crippling his FA mistakes have been... If we focus soley on this year we lost Matsusaka for the year with an injury, Drew too has been out all year and frankly Cameron was traded for a bucket of balls and hasn't costed us much...... Posted by Beantowne[/QUOT Right, which is why I said "would be crippling for most teams".  I fully agree that Henry's deep pockets bail Theo out and keep the Red Sox competitive when Theo swings and misses at high priced, low productivity FA's.   The Red Sox paid Cameron's salary, that is what he costed us.  And by costed I mean cost.  18 million for essentially zero production. 
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    Did you ever try to consider the alternative as in where we'd be if Henry didn't have deep pocket or rather the vision to improve the Red Sox brand in the interest of shareholder value...

    How many free agent bust have the Yankees had over the years and yet they keep on winning...why it's called depth. Is Cashman a better GM than Epstein? I guess...but 50M buys you some advantages...

    The Sox, Philly and the Yanks do more with more, the Cubs, Angels, Mariners and the Met's all do less with more. The Ray's and the Marlins do more with less, but they're also both heavily funded by MLB...they line up for thier 30M annual welfare checks which allows them to do more with less...but if you take those funds away and make them compete on what they earn...their farm systems would suffer and their player personnel guys would be hard pressed to sign top picks...

    Epstein ain't perfect and I do think that he has made some poor decisions...lucky for him even if we fail to make the post season this year he'll get to crank it up again next and my guess is we'll still be in the hunt and his detractor will still be throwing him under the bus...
     
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    Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever

    "Yes, Lackey has been terrible but what is the motivation behind comparing to other busts?"

    Umm, because it's a sports discussion board and that's one of the things you do on such a board, compare and contrast. At least until the point where all topics have to be run through you for approval.

    I think Zito might edge out Lackey by a hair, but let's see how it plays out - not sure Zito ever helped to blow a historic lead and contribute to a historic collapse. No question Lackey is looming as an albatross over this franchise. I thought he had some hope to level out into an overpaid #4 or so starter but it's looking like he's done.


     
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    Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever

    In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever : Why does everyone use the "We lost DiceK for the year excuse"? His record over the last 3 years is 16-15 with an ERA over 5 and a WHIP in the 1.5 range. Even an average major league pitcher would do better than that. The problem is that Theo hasn't replaced DiceK with any pitcher resembling an average pitcher.
    Posted by ADG[/QUOTE]

    Which is where the mismanagment of a 180 million dollar payroll comes into play.  The Red Sox went into the season with 6 starters, 2 were more or less, were lost for the season with injuries.  IF Lackey was able to pitch like a 18 million dollar a year pitcher, the rotation would have stabalized enough with Miller, Wake, Bedard, etc..... to at least hold off Tampa. When Beckett missed a couple starts, it was Lester and four huge question marks.     
     
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    Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever

    In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever : Why does everyone use the "We lost DiceK for the year excuse"? His record over the last 3 years is 16-15 with an ERA over 5 and a WHIP in the 1.5 range. Even an average major league pitcher would do better than that. The problem is that Theo hasn't replaced DiceK with any pitcher resembling an average pitcher.
    Posted by ADG[/QUOTE]

    If you actullay took the time to understand the contexted of my reply. Then you'd clearly see that my reference had to do with his being called a bust, it had nothing to do with this years team nor our inabilty to replace him or fopr that matter his results this ir last year...In 2007 he won 16 games pitched ove r200 innings and with him on the roster we won a WS and the next year we were 1 game from heading back...we won a WS with him playing a key role during the season...thus If you win a WS and the player makes a contribution to the casue during their time under contract...then I find it hard to call him a bust...
     
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    Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever

    In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever : Did you ever try to consider the alternative as in where we'd be if Henry didn't have deep pocket or rather the vision to improve the Red Sox brand in the interest of shareholder value... How many free agent bust have the Yankees had over the years and yet they keep on winning...why it's called depth. Is Cashman a better GM than Epstein? I guess...but 50M buys you some advantages... The Sox, Philly and the Yanks do more with more, the Cubs, Angels, Mariners and the Met's all do less with more. The Ray's and the Marlins do more with less, but they're also both heavily funded by MLB...they line up for thier 30M annual welfare checks which allows them to do more with less...but if you take those funds away and make them compete on what they earn...their farm systems would suffer and their player personnel guys would be hard pressed to sign top picks... Epstein ain't perfect and I do think that he has made some poor decisions...lucky for him even if we fail to make the post season this year he'll get to crank it up again next and my guess is we'll still be in the hunt and his detractor will still be throwing him under the bus...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    I have considered where the Sox would be without Henry and I think everytime someone praises Theo they should include Henry because that is who they are really praising.  Henry has been more responsible for this success than Theo or anyone else.

    Theo gets to "crank it up again" because Henry lets him and at this point I am starting to think maybe he shouldn't.
     
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    Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever

    In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever:
    [QUOTE]" Yes, Lackey has been terrible but what is the motivation behind comparing to other busts?" Umm, because it's a sports discussion board and that's one of the things you do on such a board, compare and contrast. At least until the point where all topics have to be run through you for approval. I think Zito might edge out Lackey by a hair, but let's see how it plays out - not sure Zito ever helped to blow a historic lead and contribute to a historic collapse. No question Lackey is looming as an albatross over this franchise. I thought he had some hope to level out into an overpaid #4 or so starter but it's looking like he's done.
    Posted by BostonTrollSpanker[/QUOTE]

    My question was relevant because I was asking a supposed Red Sox fan why it is so important to elevate the Lackey performance into the #1 position of all time FA busts. It seems like odd behavior for a Red Sox fan to act this way. It was merely a question out of curiousity. If a Yankee fan wanted to rate Pavano as the #1 FA bust of all time then I would also question his fandom.
     
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    Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever

    In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever : I have considered where the Sox would be without Henry and I think everytime someone praises Theo they should include Henry because that is who they are really praising.  Henry has been more responsible for this success than Theo or anyone else. Theo gets to "crank it up again" because Henry lets him and at this point I am starting to think maybe he shouldn't.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards[/QUOTE]

    Henry is a sharp guy, he has surrounded himslef with knowledgable guys and built a great infrastructure in the interest of increasing shareholder value...the guy behind the curtain is Luccino he is the chief archetect of the baseball operations team...Epstein is responsible for ensuring that the baseball operations teams from the lower minor leagues to the Majors level all perform their job functions within budgeted guidelines...

    Hey guy, as much as we all like to afix blame for why we haven't won a ws since 2007 squarely on Epstein and Francona shoulders...Which is fair, right and just because they get paid to build and manage rosters capable of winning WS..but the reality is that there's are other teams tryingto do the same and it's been more than a decade since anyone has repeated...So it's easier said than done. In fariness to both it is something they've done twice. The only other GM with more than 1 is Cashman...the only other manager with more than one is Larussa with two different teams...

    So while I agree that Epstein has had huis share of failures I disagree thay he has failed...Lackey has been a bust this year...not eve he would argue that. I am not ready to summarily dismiss him yet...the same with Crawford. Personally I'd like to see this team healthy and all of the hulabalu with the recent colaspe would be moot...We've yet to enter the post season healthy since 2007 and as a result we've missed the playoffs once and been elimanated twice...I guess we can blame Esptein for Mike Lowells hip...Schilling ankle and Becketts Oblique...cause if not for those injuires we might well have won it again in 2008...
     
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    Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever

    In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever : Did you ever try to consider the alternative as in where we'd be if Henry didn't have deep pocket or rather the vision to improve the Red Sox brand in the interest of shareholder value... How many free agent bust have the Yankees had over the years and yet they keep on winning...why it's called depth. Is Cashman a better GM than Epstein? I guess...but 50M buys you some advantages... The Sox, Philly and the Yanks do more with more, the Cubs, Angels, Mariners and the Met's all do less with more. The Ray's and the Marlins do more with less, but they're also both heavily funded by MLB...they line up for thier 30M annual welfare checks which allows them to do more with less...but if you take those funds away and make them compete on what they earn...their farm systems would suffer and their player personnel guys would be hard pressed to sign top picks... Epstein ain't perfect and I do think that he has made some poor decisions...lucky for him even if we fail to make the post season this year he'll get to crank it up again next and my guess is we'll still be in the hunt and his detractor will still be throwing him under the bus...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]
    Sensible, specific, and to the point.

     
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    Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever

    In Response to Re: Worst Free Agent Pitcher Signing Ever:
    [QUOTE]even with all that here we are late in September with a shot at the post season.... Lackey is without question the worst FA signing by the Red Sox since Jose Offerman, but he also has 3 more years to change that perception.....really some of your guys truly make me laugh with your constant beat down and whining... End of the Day....Theo reports to Henry...if Henry feel that Esptein is a liability than he'll fire the guy that's how it works. The problem with the Red Sox roster currently is related to injuries and underperfromance...we also have in the interest of trying to win traded some of our best prospects netting Gonzalez and Martinez before him...What is also lost on most of his detractors is that we also lost a blue chipper in Westmoreland... Keep the beat downs coming...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    And just how good would Masterson look in the rotation right now, compared to the garbage that gets tossed out there not named Beckett or Lester?
     

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