Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Soph. Show Soph's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    Yes...we've won 8 championships in 113 years. It would be STUPID if we don't trade any one player for championship. 

    But the question is silly. 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Actually on second thought.  If we got back Jose Fernandez in return AND we are guranteed a win in 2014....then I think I would at least consider that trade. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Oh heck, why not just trade Bogey, JBJ, Betts, Webster, Brentz and de la Rosa for Jose Hernandez and Stanton?

    [/QUOTE]

    if I was less worried about Stantons health that would be a trade to consider....completely unrealistic but adding those two players who have each have the potential to be the best power hitter and the best pitcher in the game is never a bad thing for your team.

     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    many have missed the point of my OP.  i realize in the "real world" there are no guarantees.  i was posing a what if this was guaranteed.  as in....the Boston Red Sox are GUARANTEED to win the 2014 World Series if they trade Xander now.  it is an absolute.  no maybe.  definitely win the World Series if you trade Xander today.

    me personally?...good luck with your career Xander but i am taking the WS championship.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    In response to Soph's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Yes...we've won 8 championships in 113 years. It would be STUPID if we don't trade any one player for championship. 

    But the question is silly. 

    [/QUOTE]


    maybe.  but it is showing what some posters value over a World Series championship.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kingface12. Show Kingface12's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    In response to slasher9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Soph's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Yes...we've won 8 championships in 113 years. It would be STUPID if we don't trade any one player for championship. 

    But the question is silly. 

    [/QUOTE]


    maybe.  but it is showing what some posters value over a World Series championship.

    [/QUOTE]

    Exactly......  Like I said earlier, ask Ted, Rice, Yaz, Evans, Doerr, Fisk etc if they would trade the systems top prospect for bringing a WORLD SERIES TITLE TO BOSTON....I wonder what they would do......?

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    In response to Kingface12's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to slasher9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Soph's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Yes...we've won 8 championships in 113 years. It would be STUPID if we don't trade any one player for championship. 

    But the question is silly. 

    [/QUOTE]


    maybe.  but it is showing what some posters value over a World Series championship.

    [/QUOTE]

    Exactly......  Like I said earlier, ask Ted, Rice, Yaz, Evans, Doerr, Fisk etc if they would trade the systems top prospect for bringing a WORLD SERIES TITLE TO BOSTON....I wonder what they would do......?

    [/QUOTE]So, they kept DON BUDDIN....  How did that work out ???


     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Kingface12. Show Kingface12's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    In response to Bill-806's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Kingface12's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to slasher9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Soph's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Yes...we've won 8 championships in 113 years. It would be STUPID if we don't trade any one player for championship. 

    But the question is silly. 

    [/QUOTE]


    maybe.  but it is showing what some posters value over a World Series championship.

    [/QUOTE]

    Exactly......  Like I said earlier, ask Ted, Rice, Yaz, Evans, Doerr, Fisk etc if they would trade the systems top prospect for bringing a WORLD SERIES TITLE TO BOSTON....I wonder what they would do......?

    [/QUOTE]So, they kept DON BUDDIN....  How did that work out ???


    [/QUOTE]


    Huh?

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    In response to slasher9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    many have missed the point of my OP.  i realize in the "real world" there are no guarantees.  i was posing a what if this was guaranteed.  as in....the Boston Red Sox are GUARANTEED to win the 2014 World Series if they trade Xander now.  it is an absolute.  no maybe.  definitely win the World Series if you trade Xander today.

    me personally?...good luck with your career Xander but i am taking the WS championship.

    [/QUOTE]

    It's a philosophical debate, but why would anyone want something guaranteed?

    Isn't there more enjoyment in the struggle to win?

    Or taken to the next level, wouldn't you want to win with the guys you root for?  Suppose we could trade Lester, Buchholz, Pedroia, and Papi, for four other, slightly better players, and would win a WS.  Would you really want to do so?  Isn't there something to the 'us v them' thing?

    And isn't struggling to win a lot more rewarding than being given a win?  Even before we won the WS this year, there were a lot of posters saying that this was one of their favorite seasons.  Trying to guarantee things sounds too much like another team.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxdirtdog. Show redsoxdirtdog's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    It goes without saying that this whole debate is silly.  No other team would give us something commensurate with XB's perceived future unproven value.  Right now, many of us think he has the goods, but even we are uncertain......  see all the threads about needing Drew to shore up the vaunted "middle."  So, what team would ever give us a player great enough to "put us over the top," without needing to give away the farm in order to supplement XB's relatively low & unproven value?

    Rediculous prospect at best!

    Having said that.....  I do think the kid could be a really good / excellent impact player at SS.  Why give away the farm when we likely have the future right now?  Time to be patient, & go with the youth.  Build for another run at the WS.  Better yet.......  build with our home grown guys!  What would be better?  Can't think of a thing!

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from bostonsportsfan228. Show bostonsportsfan228's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    In response to redsoxdirtdog's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    It goes without saying that this whole debate is silly.  No other team would give us something commensurate with XB's perceived future unproven value.  Right now, many of us think he has the goods, but even we are uncertain......  see all the threads about needing Drew to shore up the vaunted "middle."  So, what team would ever give us a player great enough to "put us over the top," without needing to give away the farm in order to supplement XB's relatively low & unproven value?

    Rediculous prospect at best!

    Having said that.....  I do think the kid could be a really good / excellent impact player at SS.  Why give away the farm when we likely have the future right now?  Time to be patient, & go with the youth.  Build for another run at the WS.  Better yet.......  build with our home grown guys!  What would be better?  Can't think of a thing!

    [/QUOTE]

    Exactly, this is all very silly.  I'm sure I don't help by playing along, it is fun to play along....,but it's all hypothetical.  Players like Xander are usually more valuable to their current team, making them close to un-tradeable. 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    It's a philosophical debate, but why would anyone want something guaranteed?

    Isn't there more enjoyment in the struggle to win?

    Or taken to the next level, wouldn't you want to win with the guys you root for?  Suppose we could trade Lester, Buchholz, Pedroia, and Papi, for four other, slightly better players, and would win a WS.  Would you really want to do so?  Isn't there something to the 'us v them' thing?

    And isn't struggling to win a lot more rewarding than being given a win?  Even before we won the WS this year, there were a lot of posters saying that this was one of their favorite seasons.  Trying to guarantee things sounds too much like another team.

    [/QUOTE]

    interesting points joe.

    i love your points about the struggle.

    your other point i dont necessarily agree with....

    as for trading fan beloved homegrown players.....that means nothing to this fanbase or organization.

    why can i say that with confidence?  trading deadline 2004.......

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from bosoxmal. Show bosoxmal's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    What have you been smoking?

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    sadly....nothing.

    i guess by your comment you wouldnt trade player "X" for a WS title then?

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to slasher9's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    many have missed the point of my OP.  i realize in the "real world" there are no guarantees.  i was posing a what if this was guaranteed.  as in....the Boston Red Sox are GUARANTEED to win the 2014 World Series if they trade Xander now.  it is an absolute.  no maybe.  definitely win the World Series if you trade Xander today.

    me personally?...good luck with your career Xander but i am taking the WS championship.

    [/QUOTE]

    It's a philosophical debate, but why would anyone want something guaranteed?

    Isn't there more enjoyment in the struggle to win?

    Or taken to the next level, wouldn't you want to win with the guys you root for?  Suppose we could trade Lester, Buchholz, Pedroia, and Papi, for four other, slightly better players, and would win a WS.  Would you really want to do so?  Isn't there something to the 'us v them' thing?

    And isn't struggling to win a lot more rewarding than being given a win?  Even before we won the WS this year, there were a lot of posters saying that this was one of their favorite seasons.  Trying to guarantee things sounds too much like another team.

    [/QUOTE]

    Great post. Take away all the struggles, the will to win in every game and the excitement that comes with it for a guaranteed win? I'm not sure I would even watch all the games. I mean, why bother? You already know the outcome. To me, while the championship would be great, it would be like a whole season without baseball -- and who would want that? :)

    The 2013 improbable season was one of the best seasons I've watched. Last to First. You just couldn't believe it was happening. It's wasn't 2004, obviously nothing can top that, but it definitely gets second best honors in the "Is this really happening?" category.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    He will not be traded.  He is only 20 something years old.  We got to wait until he either become one of the future top 20 best players within the next five years or he will be the next Middlebrook or Lavarnaway or Daniel Bard guy!!

    If you really want Stanton, Boston can use other trade bait to get him.  

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from vic5014. Show vic5014's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    If I could make a deal with the devil that produced an absolute, ironclad guarantee of a repeat, I'd do it in a hearbeat. Hell, if I could, I'd trade the entire farm system and $1 billion for a guaranteed WS title. Teams play the game to win championships, not to stockpile prospects that may never amount to anything. Prospects come and go and are inherently uncertain and a risk. The list of can't-miss prospects, especially pitchers, who never amounted to anything is longer than an NBA center's arms.

    Don't forget, when the Sox traded for Pedro, the pitchers they gave up (Pavano and Tony Armas Jr.) were supposed to be the Sox' top prospects and two of the best pitching prospects in all of baseball. In case anyone needs the reminder, Armas flamed out and Pavano had exactly one good year in MLB that resulted in him stealing something like $50mil/4 years from the Yanks.

    A more recent example is when the then-Florida Marlins traded Miguel Cabrera to the Tigers for the Tigers' top two prospects, a hard-throwing lefty starter and a 5-tool CF, and maybe some others. Neither can't-miss prospect lived up to the hype, as the Sox well know since that flame-throwing lefty was a guy named Andrew Miller.

     

     

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    In response to vic5014's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    If you could make a deal with the devil that produced an absolute, ironclad guarantee of a repeat, sure. Teams play the game to win championships, not to stockpile prospects that may never amount to anything. Prospects come and go and are inherently uncertain and a risk. The list of can't-miss prospects, especially pitchers, who never amounted to anything is longer than an NBA center's arms.

    Don't forget, when the Sox traded for Pedro, the pitchers they gave up (Pavano and Tony Armas Jr.) were supposed to be the Sox' top prospects and two of the best pitching prospects in all of baseball. In case anyone needs the reminder, Armas flamed out and Pavano had exactly one good year in MLB that resulted in him stealing something like $50mil/4 years from the Yanks.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    pitching prospects also go bust more often than hitters, and Pavano was never as highly (although he was highly regarded) as Bogaerts was.  Pavano was a guy who projected as a middle of the rotation starter with more upside (that he never fulfilled) Bogaerts is projected to be a star by most and has a ceiling as an MVP candidate.

     

    Bogaerts also broke into the majors 2 years younger than Pavano....20 year olds who make it to the majors have a very high sucess rate of becoming stars.

     

    Bogaerts also gives you the chance to win every single year for at least 6 years.  who says we can't win 2-3 with him?  I suppose it is all subjective, but unless we were blown away by an offer...I'll hold onto Bogaerts.

    Anyone else is tradeable in the right package, but Bogaerts would take an entire farm to move.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from vic5014. Show vic5014's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

     

    In response to vic5014's comment:




    pitching prospects also go bust more often than hitters, and Pavano was never as highly (although he was highly regarded) as Bogaerts was.  Pavano was a guy who projected as a middle of the rotation starter with more upside (that he never fulfilled) Bogaerts is projected to be a star by most and has a ceiling as an MVP candidate.

     

    Bogaerts also broke into the majors 2 years younger than Pavano....20 year olds who make it to the majors have a very high sucess rate of becoming stars.

     

    Bogaerts also gives you the chance to win every single year for at least 6 years.  who says we can't win 2-3 with him?  I suppose it is all subjective, but unless we were blown away by an offer...I'll hold onto Bogaerts.

    Anyone else is tradeable in the right package, but Bogaerts would take an entire farm to move.




    My only point is that you never say no to any trade that makes the team better, that no prospect should be untouchable unless you're absolutely certain (as in I'd bet my life on it) that he'll be the next Cy Young/Willie Mays, and that no prospect is evera sure thing. That's more true for pitchers than others and young players who've shown they can handle the big leagues do tend to turn out well. To counter your point about the success rate of 20-year olds good enough to be in the big leagues, I've got two words for you: Justin Upton. Tons of talent and plenty more upside, but hasn't put it all together yet. Regardless ...

     

     

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    A more recent example is when the then-Florida Marlins traded Miguel Cabrera to the Tigers for the Tigers' top two prospects, a hard-throwing lefty starter and a 5-tool CF, and maybe some others. 

    Miggy was rated #12, so is there a lesson behind this?  Some work out and some don't.  Some vets work out and some don't.

    Maybe some better recent examples Syndergaard and D'Arnaud for Dickey, or 3-4 good prospects for Reyes, Buerhle and Johnson.  Or Myers  + + for Shields.  There have been some atrocious vets for prospects trades recently.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from vic5014. Show vic5014's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

     

    A more recent example is when the then-Florida Marlins traded Miguel Cabrera to the Tigers for the Tigers' top two prospects, a hard-throwing lefty starter and a 5-tool CF, and maybe some others. 

    Miggy was rated #12, so is there a lesson behind this?  Some work out and some don't.  Some vets work out and some don't.

    Maybe some better recent examples Syndergaard and D'Arnaud for Dickey, or 3-4 good prospects for Reyes, Buerhle and Johnson.  Or Myers  + + for Shields.  There have been some atrocious vets for prospects trades recently.

     



    Again, my only point is to never outright refuse to consider trading someone without considering what you get in return. This is extra, extra, extra true for prospects, even ones as highly touted as Bogaerts. Some posters here seem to thing Bogaerts is a sure thing to be a superstar and he's not, no prospect ever is. On the other hand even HoFers like Ted Williams, Pedro, Glavine, Maddux, the Big Hurt et al were prospects once, so a few do make it and some even become mega-super-stars.

     

    The Sox are not in a position of needing to rebuild or to shed payroll, so they should at least be willing to (very carefully) plunder the farm to improve the short-term future. As a team in a position to go for a championship, I'd prefer them to trade prospects for the right veteran players if the opportunity arises.

     

     

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    In response to vic5014's comment:

    If I could make a deal with the devil that produced an absolute, ironclad guarantee of a repeat, I'd do it in a hearbeat. Hell, if I could, I'd trade the entire farm system and $1 billion for a guaranteed WS title. Teams play the game to win championships, not to stockpile prospects that may never amount to anything. Prospects come and go and are inherently uncertain and a risk. The list of can't-miss prospects, especially pitchers, who never amounted to anything is longer than an NBA center's arms.

    Don't forget, when the Sox traded for Pedro, the pitchers they gave up (Pavano and Tony Armas Jr.) were supposed to be the Sox' top prospects and two of the best pitching prospects in all of baseball. In case anyone needs the reminder, Armas flamed out and Pavano had exactly one good year in MLB that resulted in him stealing something like $50mil/4 years from the Yanks.

    A more recent example is when the then-Florida Marlins traded Miguel Cabrera to the Tigers for the Tigers' top two prospects, a hard-throwing lefty starter and a 5-tool CF, and maybe some others. Neither can't-miss prospect lived up to the hype, as the Sox well know since that flame-throwing lefty was a guy named Andrew Miller.

     

     

     

     




     

    No offense, but if that's the case then I'm glad you're not the GM. What would be your plan for the year after? That doesn't sound much different than the teams that throw away the future attempting to "win now" at all costs, and in a couple of years find themselves burdened with a bunch of expensive, overrated players with no farm system to rebuild with. Yes, you may get lucky and come up with a championship with that strategy (see '09 Yankees), but you're still going to have to pay the piper before long.

    Now, I think no player is untouchable if the deal is right...and if the question was "Would you trade Bogaerts for [unspecified players in return]?" that would be one thing. (It would take a lot, but I can entertain the idea.) But that's not how I understood Slasher's thought experiment: it's Bogaerts for one guaranteed WS title, period. Some may think that's a fair trade...but I'm thinking about the other five years of control of Bogaerts you're surrendering, and possibly more if you can extend him, or the draft pick if he leaves as a free agent, etc. That's a lot of ripples extending outwards for a lot of years to come. Maybe you make that deal if a championship is otherwise hopelessly out of reach, but as it stands, the Red Sox should be title contenders just about every season anyway. I would rather hold on to Bogaerts and compete for multiple titles with him than sacrifice him for one "guaranteed title" (which, of course, does not exist in the real world) and leave the team weaker going forward.

    That may strike some as far-sighted, but it is possible to build a winning team in the present without giving up the future.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    To try the thought experiment a different way... What if, in 2005, fresh off a Red Sox championship, you were asked whether you'd trade Jon Lester for another guaranteed title. I suspect that trade would have been extremely agreeable to most people at the time. (Lester was at that time much further from the major leagues than Xander is now and was never as highly-rated a prospect as Xander is; in fact, he was not even considered our top pitching prospect at that time.)

    Making that deal would have gotten us another title, but as we know, we would win another one anyway in 2007 - and who knows whether we would still win in 2013 without Lester.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from vic5014. Show vic5014's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:

     

    To try the thought experiment a different way... What if, in 2005, fresh off a Red Sox championship, you were asked whether you'd trade Jon Lester for another guaranteed title. I suspect that trade would have been extremely agreeable to most people at the time. (Lester was at that time much further from the major leagues than Xander is now and was never as highly-rated a prospect as Xander is; in fact, he was not even considered our top pitching prospect at that time.)

    Making that deal would have gotten us another title, but as we know, we would win another one anyway in 2007 - and who knows whether we would still win in 2013 without Lester.

     



    That's certainly an intersting point, though I'd point out that pitching prospects are both arguably more valuable and less dependable than position players. It's certainly at least a little easier to dig up a quality position player than it is to find a top of the rotation starter or an elite closer, one big reason why FA pitchers are routinely overpaid despite usually being older and often on the downside of their careers.

    Face it, if an organization has a quality young pitcher, they'll usually try their best to buy out his arbitration years and at least the first few FA years. Barring having Boras as an agent, many young pitchers will take the certainty of a guaranteed, long-term contract especially since so many promising young pitchers have their careers derailed by injury or ineffectiveness.

    In addition, being a lefty who wasn't a Jamie Moyer-type would have and does boost the value of guys like Lester and Kershaw considerably. Most MLB sluggers are leftys, placing a significant premium on lefty pitchers who can get them out. After all, there's a reason why LOOGY types seem to have 40-year careers and sometimes it feels like some team somewhere will sign any lefty pitcher who 1) can get the ball over the plate and 2) is breathing.

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: Would you trade Bogaerts today.....

    No. I think we are the favorites to repeat. Why not have our Bogaerts and eat the league too?

    Plus, part of the fun of watching sports is watching the players. Would Orioles fans trade Cal Ripken's career for another championship? I want to watch Xander play baseball. Let fate and destiny take care of the rest.

     
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