Moon, Sometimes it's in the best interest of both parties to move on. I have moved on.
You and I have nothing to do with it.
Of course we didn't and don't, but discussing the merits of a deal already made is part of what this site is all about.In the case of Youkilis it was clearly addition by subtraction. One can quible over his value to the team at the time of the trade. I tend to disagree that the Sox got "fleeced". Given his lackluster start to the season along with his second half of last year and the money's he was owned. His trade value on the open market was next to nil. The aquiring team had to weight the risk of his not regaining his form, along with his contract status and his propensity to spend time on the DL. Your idea of clearness is as milky as it gets. Clearly, Youk filling in for the injured Middlebrooks, AGon, and now Papi would have been light years better than what we have had instead.
So if I'm reading the above correctly? You were an advocate to keep Youkilis. My point whether you want to agree with it or not had nothing to-do with whether or not Youkilis could have been useful member of the team.
That was my point. You ignored Youk's usefulness and possible recovery of form when evaluating the trade, when to me, it should be the most important part of any trade: weighing value or possible value (forseeing injury, potential for improvement, etc...) vs what we get in return.
Entering the season. The hope was that Youk would regain his form, come back strong and be the righthanded middle of the order 900 OPS guy he was previous to last years All Star break...Unfortunately for him and the Sox, he never did. Had he, they don't trade him and Middlebrook's is still in AAA.
I know the history. Youk was coming off a difficult injury, and Ben jumped the gun. He gave up on a hitter with great recent history who was basicallystill in ST. If we had gotten something good in return, or not had to pay almost all of his deal, then there could be an argument for tading him before the deadline, but neither were true.
Youk is a walking poster boy for the injury prone athlete. I've never questioned his ability when healthy. In the end, his struggles since last year to stay on the field due to not one, not two, not three, four different injuries were and are at the heart of why his value on the open market was next to nil. Oh by the way, what do you know he's currently day to day with a bum knee! So if you scoring at home, make it 5 different injuries.
I am aware of the injury history and his subsequent injury while with the White Sox, and i weighed these facts against the value of Lillibridge and Stewart. If Stewart ends up helping us in the future, unlikely in my opinion, the deal may end up being a wash or a plus, but I wasn't expecting Youk to play everyday had we kept him. I figured maybe he'd playmaybe every 10 days at 3B, 10 days at DH, and 3 to 4 of 10 days at 1B with AGon in RF at least until CC and Ellsbury returned. That's about 50-60% action, which could lessen the chance of future injury.
One main point about being against the trade was the timing. We could have at least waited until out OF was healthy. The trade was made before the deadline. I didn't see why we needed to rush, and as it turned out injuries to Midds, AGon, then later Papi did happen.
Moon, we are not privy to the behind the scenes conversations that take place between the player & management. Ben Cherinton's no dummy, and niether is Valentine. I won't pretend that I know more or less than any other avid sox fans about the inner working of the team.
I never have pretended to knwo more than Ben or the media, but I tend to downgrade all the "cancer in the clubhouse" as a reason for a team's failure argument and always have.
1) The media often pumps up an issue to sell papers.
2) Even if there is a clubhouse issue, it is usually between player-manager/GM and does not have the effect on other players that many feel it does.
3) Teams often win championships with great clubhouse problems- in all sports. Examples abound.
Don't you find it a tad curious that he struggled to hit and then suddenly found his stroke just by changing the color of his Sox?
No, not one iota. Same way I don't believe in the argument that Jason bay would have continued greatness had he stayed here. Youk was recovering from an injury. He was, in a sense, in a second ST mode. I expected him to improve had he stayed with us, but I admit not playing nearly everyday might have slowed this process.
What can't be understated in this is that after getting called up. Middlebrook's outplayed and out hit Youk. In the end, trading Youkilis served to put end to the day to day speculation over who was our starting 3rd baseman.
1) Please stop implying I wanted Middlebrooks benched or platooned. I did not.
I was not and have not Implied that you wanted anything. Your position on this is just that yours. I repect that, I also have my own position and will debate the merits of my arguments as long as we can maintian civility. Unlike softy, I'm not keeping score...
I know softy well, and believe me, thankfully you are no softy. There may have been 1 or 2 posters who were saying Youk should play over Midds at 3B, but I don't recall them. Maybe Youk was arguing with BV, and even if it was in front of the whole team, I seriously don't see thsi as an "issue" that needed to be solved by a radical solution like removing Youk or BV from the clubhouse. Yes, that is my opinion, and I repsecty yours, but I do not think removing Youk was the only solution to "ending the day-to-day speculation". Are we so sure that Middlebrooks
1) Came to the park everyday wondering if he was in the line-up?
2) If yes, are we sure this hurt his growth or progress?
3) That there really was "day-to-day specualtion" in the clubhouse?
2) There was no "day-to-day speculation", or at least didn't have to be if BV did the right thing- named Middlebrooks the FT 3Bman.
Fact is the media both local and national jumped on this train after Middlebrook's started tearing the cover off the ball. In the end, BV did make a choice, that's why Youk's wearing white sox now.
Bobby V made the choice long before the trade. Trading one player is a rash option to making a who plays a position decision. It is not a common choice, especially at that point in a season.
3) Day-to-day speculation can be a motivating factor or a distraction. What makes you so sure it was the latter and not the former? Nobody knows, and that is why I am not using these sorts of arguments to make my point.
I agree and if indeed having Youkilis on the team motivated young Middlebrook's to strive to play harder. I'm all in...if it was indeed a distraction? I'm Ok with his being moved. The Sox didn't have to trade him. They chose to...like it or not my guess is that Youkilis himself played in role in making it so...
Making Youk happy might have played a role in the decision to trade him. Making BV's job easier might have played a role as well. My point is that the vastly most important part of any trade should be: does it help the team now and/or going forward? This should trump all other aspects of any trade, unless it is a Manny Ramirez type situation, and even in his case, we got a nice return (1.3 years of Jason Bay vs 0.3 years of a pouting Manny).
synergy; when the results are greater than the sum of the parts...
We can agree to disagree, but I think the part that Youk could have added to this team would have raised the sum of all parts value more than his pouting brought it down (if it did at all). The hindsight part of the equation certainly helps my position, as it was highly unlikely at the time of the trade that Middlebrooks, then AGon, then Papi would all miss games, but as it turned out, I have to think we'd be better off now had we kept Youk than we have done with Lillibridge. I guess if we would have missed the playoffs regardless of the Youk trade or not, then having Stewart going forward is better than having nothing after Youk walked this winter.
To that end, I oversee a crew of more than 100 employess. In my more that 30 years of managing, over time I've concluded that there are basically three distinct classes of workers. Great employees, good workers and those needing improvement. Sometimes great employees are not your best workers and often your best workers are not the best employees. To me what separates the great employee from the good worker is the intagables of loyality, accountablility, responsibility, work ethic and how well they intergrate with thier fellow employees and management. A good worker, often is highly productive, but tends to be someone that rocks the boat and requires a higher level of supervision and when called upon to volunteer alway declines...
I don't want to sit here and state that I know which class Youk falls into but his reputation precedes him...see Manny
Good points. I've been in clubhouse that are harmonious and problematic. I've been a player who thought he should play more or bat 1st or 2nd not 8th. It's part of the game. IMO, this wasn't likely a freak case that needed immediate radical action.
It also allowed Gonzalez to move back to first and ended the log jam where Valentine had to juggle the lineup to get everyone the requist at bats.
This is a valid point. Hindisght shows AGon has begun to hit better. It may not be related to not playing RF anymore, but some of our OF numbers after Youk was dealt and CC & Ells returned were pretty pathetic as well.
Line-ups have been just as jumbled since the trade. Our RF has been a revolving door complete with several failed experiments (Kalish). Ben shoud have at least waited until CC & Ells came back or the deadline. He couldn't have done much worse in trade return then.
Not sure that the OF has anything to do with my point...
vs my point, it should, since keeping Youk and playing him 50-60% of the games, would have meant playing AGon in RF 30% of the games, unless someone got injured.
Since the trade Gonzalez hasn't had to play RF and with Youk gone, Young Middlebrooks has been in the lineup everyday. Which meant that every day when he awoke and took his morning shower, before heading to the park he did so knowing that his name was on the lineup card and he'd be starting at 3rd...Better yet, he do so knowing that earned it by outplaying Youkilis!
Thus In the best interest of the kid's development.
Again, I never saw Youk wanting to play as hurting Middlebrooks development, in fact, it could be argued that Middlebrooks played a little worse after Youk was traded.
Again, a totally unfounded psoition. History is full of examples where rookies did well and won the job with the vet breathing down his neck.
Apparently Middlebrooks got that memo too...My reference to "In the best interest of his development" was is code for the kid has to play everyday and by annointing him the starter. a desination he earned on the field. Sent him the message that the organization trusted that he was the best man for the job! No small issue for a young ball player to know that the manger of the team see you as the best man for the job!
I think telling Middlebrooks "you are the man now" was over-rated. besides, he went 5 for 37 right after the trade, so where's the evidence it helped or hurt?
His monthly OPS has declined every month since the "vote of confidence".
.836> .785> .719
Youkilis had to go even if it meant for pennies on the dollar...
I respect your opinion, but I can enver see it that way. We paid the White Sox to get better, and we got worse, all to help pump up the ego of a rookie in hopes that it might help. It hasn't as far as the numbers show. What I mostly heard at the time of the trade was "what's the chance our 3Bman, DH or 1Bman will get hurt?", and "you don't make trades based on projecting injuries", but that is exactly what happened.
In hinsight, I don't see how the deal can be defended.
The media invented the "have to go" hype story, and you bought it. I didn't.
Again, since I have not nor do I for one moment question how you arrive at your conclusions, when making an argument. I would appreciate your not making assumptions on how I reach mine. Each of us are influenced by what we read in the papers and see on TV. I din't buy into the he has to go hype...my conclusion is based purely on the fact that he did go.
FYI I have not read 1 single word written by Mazzarotti since moving to the globe or Shaunsessey for more that a decade now. Because I see both them as the president and vice president of the doom and gloomers club. A club of which I don't want a membership card to.
Fair enough, but you did think there was a big clubhous issue. I was not so sure. I'm still not sure the actual deal proves it was all about Youk's attitude or a cancerous clubhouse. Maybe it was just about getting AGon our of RF, increased flexibilty with Lillibridge over Youk, and Ben's thought that Stewart is a viable prospect.
In closing, Moon you're one of my favorites on this forum and often we don't see thing's the same way. I would also like to add that when I read your post's along with many others on this board. Not unlike the articles written by the baseball writers and the many of the pudits that are paid to give us insights in to the inner workings of the game. Each has a role in shaping my opinions, however, I am not a Lemmings and do not follow anyone over a cliff.
Bean, you are by far one of my favorite posters here. True, we don't always agree, but what would be the point of this site if we all did. I look forward to many more thought-provoking discussions in the future.
I hope Stewart forces me to admit I was wrong about this trade, and as time has gone by, I am doubting that Youk would have helped enough to squeek us into the playoffs anyway, so it's not such a big issue with me anymore.