Xander's 50 point dive

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    Re: Xander's 50 point dive

    If Xander's performance is affected that much from a move to 3rd base then maybe he isn't that great of a player that everyone says he is. Great players would be able to adjust to a move like this. I'm hoping the slump has more to do with the pitchers making adjustments to throwing to Xander and players do go in to slumps over the course of the year. 

    Here is a link on the subject of players that have moved and played at a high level. http://blog.detroitathletic.com/2012/02/28/many-baseball-greats-have-been-asked-to-switch-to-third-base/

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Xander's 50 point dive

    In response to steven11's comment:

    they had their 3rd baseman already on the roster in Holt, this was a Lucchino move sucking up to Bora$$ for what reason I have no idea...



    No they didn't, Holt hardly played third. They tried signing the 3rd baseman left Ryan Roberts first because Holt is an second baseman. I disagree about the failure of Middlebrooks. This was because of the injury of Middlebrooks and the lack of third base depth in the system. The fact that they had Middlebrooks work out as an outfielder   that should be reason enough to show they still valued him as a hitter.




I am beginning to buy into the Boras theories.



The Boras theories don't make any sense to me.  If they were so intent on pleasing Boras, why didn't they sign Drew in the offseason for what Boras was asking for, instead of going with Bogey and WMB?  Have any of the Boras conspiracy theorists explained that one yet?

 

 
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Xander's 50 point dive

    In response to Fletcherbrook's comment:

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    In response to Fletcherbrook's comment:

    In response to chickenandboose's comment:

    I am sure Ben was forced by the three stooges to get Drew... Idiots.



    The timing of whole thing was very odd for sure.



    Yes very odd, an infielder on your left side goes on the D.L. so you go out and get a guy who can play on the left side of you infield.  Very very very very odd indeed.



    All I am saying is the timing of Xander's precipitous drop coincides EXACTLY with his switch to third. That's all my friend. Nothing more- nothing less. It simply makes me wonder. I think it would be hard for anyone to impartially look at the numbers and not see that it's statistically unlikely that pitchers "discovered" Xander's weakness the day drew pushed him to third.




    [object HTMLDivElement]

    If you look at his game log, you'd realize that his hot streak, same as Holt, started on the day they signed Drew.

    His MTD OPS thru 5/17 was only .700 with a 15/6 K/W.  The signing of Drew jolted him, but this is what is to be expected from rookies.  Check out some of Machado's inconsistencies for a comparison.

    Past that, he was always destined for 3rd.  There was almost a -0- chance he was playing SS over Iglesias or Marrero.  Buchholz' injury gave him a one-year reprieve, but I seriously doubt anyone thought of as the SS of the future.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Xander's 50 point dive

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    In response to Fletcherbrook's comment:

    In response to SportsGenius1's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to Fletcherbrook's comment:

    In response to chickenandboose's comment:

    I am sure Ben was forced by the three stooges to get Drew... Idiots.



    The timing of whole thing was very odd for sure.



    To rebeat a dead horse, Drew was obtained because of the failure of Middlebrooks. And at the time he was obtained we still had something of a chance for the playoffs. Something had to be done. It isn't working out, but the status quo was not an option.

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

     

    they had their 3rd baseman already on the roster in Holt, this was a Lucchino move sucking up to Bora$$ for what reason I have no idea...




    Bingo. Some people fail to comprehend this fact. 



    yes bingo!!! because we all know the Front Office has a magic time machine and knew Holt could come up and be this good.  Holt didn't come up and start performing until after the fact...that is a complete hindsight decision.




    [object HTMLDivElement]

    I need me some those crystal balls.  

    • Holt's career OPS was maybe .620 when the trade was made
    • He had 283 minor league games as SS, 178 at 3B, and 11 at 3rd
    • He has 40 GS with 6 errors in the pros
    • Before 2014, he had 24 games at 3B in 5 years

    So obviously everyone knew he was the 3B of the future.

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Xander's 50 point dive

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    In response to Fletcherbrook's comment:

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    In response to Fletcherbrook's comment:

    In response to chickenandboose's comment:

    I am sure Ben was forced by the three stooges to get Drew... Idiots.



    The timing of whole thing was very odd for sure.



    Yes very odd, an infielder on your left side goes on the D.L. so you go out and get a guy who can play on the left side of you infield.  Very very very very odd indeed.



    All I am saying is the timing of Xander's precipitous drop coincides EXACTLY with his switch to third. That's all my friend. Nothing more- nothing less. It simply makes me wonder. I think it would be hard for anyone to impartially look at the numbers and not see that it's statistically unlikely that pitchers "discovered" Xander's weakness the day drew pushed him to third.




    [object HTMLDivElement]

    If you look at his game log, you'd realize that his hot streak, same as Holt, started on the day they signed Drew.

    His MTD OPS thru 5/17 was only .700 with a 15/6 K/W.  The signing of Drew jolted him, but this is what is to be expected from rookies.  Check out some of Machado's inconsistencies for a comparison.

    Past that, he was always destined for 3rd.  There was almost a -0- chance he was playing SS over Iglesias or Marrero.  Buchholz' injury gave him a one-year reprieve, but I seriously doubt anyone thought of as the SS of the future.

    Whoa... wait a minute!  We have a significant disagreement on this.  

    One of the things that made Iggy replaceable was that we had The SS of the Future waiting in the wings.  And it wasn't Marrerro.  

    Bogaerts came up as a SS, played SS at every level, and came into the Sox as competition with Iggy for the SS position.  At the time of the Iggy/Peavy trade it was widely recognized that Iggy was traded because of his offensive shortcomings, which opened the door for Bogearts - who was better offensively but not nearly as spectacular defensively.  A trade the FO was willing to make.  

    The only question ever asked about Bogearts was whether he'd be able to play the position once his frame filled out, and when that question was asked names like Ripken were mentioned - players who were bigger than the prototypical SS but played the game well in spite of it. 

    To say that no one ever thought of Bogearts as the SS of the future is revisionist history at its best.

    [object HTMLDivElement]

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Xander's 50 point dive

    And furthermore... :-)

    If Xander Bogaerts thinks it's his birthright to be a ML SS he stands to be very disappointed in his career - but I don't think that's the case.

    Everything I've ever heard about Xander Bogaerts talks about his willingness to learn and his great attitude.  That's why I don't buy into this business of the dip in XB's OPS being caused by the move to 3B.  It seems uncharacteristic of Bogaerts to go into a funk because he's been 'demoted' from the SS position. I'd sooner think it's the pitchers in the league catching up with him or that he's in an inevitable slump right now.    

     

     

    Having the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.

    And I have never posted here under any other names.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from miscricket. Show miscricket's posts

    Re: Xander's 50 point dive

    In response to S5's comment:

    And furthermore... :-)

    If Xander Bogaerts thinks it's his birthright to be a ML SS he stands to be very disappointed in his career - but I don't think that's the case.

    Everything I've ever heard about Xander Bogaerts talks about his willingness to learn and his great attitude.  That's why I don't buy into this business of the dip in XB's OPS being caused by the move to 3B.  It seems uncharacteristic of Bogaerts to go into a funk because he's been 'demoted' from the SS position. I'd sooner think it's the pitchers in the league catching up with him or that he's in an inevitable slump right now.    

     

     

    Having the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do.

    And I have never posted here under any other names.




    Agreed..I doubt this has anything to do with his attitude. All good hitters go into slumps..it's a fact of baseball. I think that is all this is..ill timed for him as it is.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Xander's 50 point dive

    Silly to argue moving to 3B caused a hitting swoon.  I was against the Drew re-acquisition but at least understand it was one of the few moves available to the FO--shore up the defense at a critical position, which just might help the pitching, and you don't have to give up Bogaerts good bat to do it.   To a degree, the same exact rationale applies to why Bradley has stayed in the lineup so long despite an OPS below .600--he is a very good defensive centerfielder as we saw yet again last night when he made a play Ellsbury could never make.  

    Too many people keep ignoring that Ben C by and large returned last year's club except for Ellsbury, who in my opinion was very unlikely to be re-signed, especially after the Yankees let Cano go and needed a marquee player.  Plus I think Ellsbury was eager to leave because of the non-support by his teammates during the 2010 season.  Is it worth noting that the Sox current leadoff hitter, Holt, has a higher OBP and OPS than Ellsbury did last year (or has this year)?  

    I think most of us thought 2013 was semi-miraculous on several fronts--emergence of Uehara, Buchholz incredible early season run, etc,--but especially the hitting, which led MLB in runs scored when few thought that was possible.  So this year the big bats, including Ellsbury's (now with the Yankees), are down more than up.  Two of last year's quasi home run hitters, Victorino and Middlebrooks, have hardly played.  Bogaerts, who showed great promise last year and early this year, is in a slump.  Pedroia's hitting is again off.  Napoli's output is down.  And on and on.  Thus the emergence of Brock Holt and now Mookie Betts, both of whom got to the big club much faster than anyone expected.  

     

     

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Xander's 50 point dive

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    Silly to argue moving to 3B caused a hitting swoon.  I was against the Drew re-acquisition but at least understand it was one of the few moves available to the FO--shore up the defense at a critical position, which just might help the pitching, and you don't have to give up Bogaerts good bat to do it.   To a degree, the same exact rationale applies to why Bradley has stayed in the lineup so long despite an OPS below .600--he is a very good defensive centerfielder as we saw yet again last night when he made a play Ellsbury could never make.  

    Too many people keep ignoring that Ben C by and large returned last year's club except for Ellsbury, who in my opinion was very unlikely to be re-signed, especially after the Yankees let Cano go and needed a marquee player.  Plus I think Ellsbury was eager to leave because of the non-support by his teammates during the 2010 season.  Is it worth noting that the Sox current leadoff hitter, Holt, has a higher OBP and OPS than Ellsbury did last year (or has this year)?  

    I think most of us thought 2013 was semi-miraculous on several fronts--emergence of Uehara, Buchholz incredible early season run, etc,--but especially the hitting, which led MLB in runs scored when few thought that was possible.  So this year the big bats, including Ellsbury's (now with the Yankees), are down more than up.  Two of last year's quasi home run hitters, Victorino and Middlebrooks, have hardly played.  Bogaerts, who showed great promise last year and early this year, is in a slump.  Pedroia's hitting is again off.  Napoli's output is down.  And on and on.  Thus the emergence of Brock Holt and now Mookie Betts, both of whom got to the big club much faster than anyone expected.   



    I agree with most of that, but Napoli's numbers are very much in line with what they were last year.  The only thing that's down is RBI, but that's a result of fewer opportunities, I expect.

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Xander's 50 point dive

    If Xander's slump is due to being moved to 3rd, maybe he should sit down with Brock Holt and have a discussion about the merits of versatility.

     

    I love the smell of asphalt in the morning.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Xander's 50 point dive

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    In response to Fletcherbrook's comment:

    In response to SportsGenius1's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to Fletcherbrook's comment:

    In response to chickenandboose's comment:

    I am sure Ben was forced by the three stooges to get Drew... Idiots.



    The timing of whole thing was very odd for sure.



    To rebeat a dead horse, Drew was obtained because of the failure of Middlebrooks. And at the time he was obtained we still had something of a chance for the playoffs. Something had to be done. It isn't working out, but the status quo was not an option.

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

     

    they had their 3rd baseman already on the roster in Holt, this was a Lucchino move sucking up to Bora$$ for what reason I have no idea...




    Bingo. Some people fail to comprehend this fact. 



    yes bingo!!! because we all know the Front Office has a magic time machine and knew Holt could come up and be this good.  Holt didn't come up and start performing until after the fact...that is a complete hindsight decision.




    [object HTMLDivElement]

    I need me some those crystal balls.  

    • Holt's career OPS was maybe .620 when the trade was made
    • He had 283 minor league games as SS, 178 at 3B, and 11 at 3rd
    • He has 40 GS with 6 errors in the pros
    • Before 2014, he had 24 games at 3B in 5 years

    So obviously everyone knew he was the 3B of the future.

     

    See? It's so simple when you break it down.

     

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Xander's 50 point dive

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to maxbialystock's comment:

    Silly to argue moving to 3B caused a hitting swoon.  I was against the Drew re-acquisition but at least understand it was one of the few moves available to the FO--shore up the defense at a critical position, which just might help the pitching, and you don't have to give up Bogaerts good bat to do it.   To a degree, the same exact rationale applies to why Bradley has stayed in the lineup so long despite an OPS below .600--he is a very good defensive centerfielder as we saw yet again last night when he made a play Ellsbury could never make.  

    Too many people keep ignoring that Ben C by and large returned last year's club except for Ellsbury, who in my opinion was very unlikely to be re-signed, especially after the Yankees let Cano go and needed a marquee player.  Plus I think Ellsbury was eager to leave because of the non-support by his teammates during the 2010 season.  Is it worth noting that the Sox current leadoff hitter, Holt, has a higher OBP and OPS than Ellsbury did last year (or has this year)?  

    I think most of us thought 2013 was semi-miraculous on several fronts--emergence of Uehara, Buchholz incredible early season run, etc,--but especially the hitting, which led MLB in runs scored when few thought that was possible.  So this year the big bats, including Ellsbury's (now with the Yankees), are down more than up.  Two of last year's quasi home run hitters, Victorino and Middlebrooks, have hardly played.  Bogaerts, who showed great promise last year and early this year, is in a slump.  Pedroia's hitting is again off.  Napoli's output is down.  And on and on.  Thus the emergence of Brock Holt and now Mookie Betts, both of whom got to the big club much faster than anyone expected.   



    I agree with most of that, but Napoli's numbers are very much in line with what they were last year.  The only thing that's down is RBI, but that's a result of fewer opportunities, I expect.



    Actually, the reason his RBIs are down is because he's hitting just .186 w/RISP, which is 70 points lower than last years and 60 points lower than his career, which obviously went down because of this year. If he was around .250 w/RISP, he'd likely have at least six more RBIs, maybe more, which would put him closer to being on pace for normal RBI totals after you account for time on the DL.  

     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from Fletcherbrook. Show Fletcherbrook's posts

    Re: Xander's 50 point dive

    In response to ThefourBs' comment:



     




    If Xander's slump is due to being moved to 3rd, maybe he should sit down with Brock Holt and have a discussion about the merits of versatility.




     




     




     




    I love the smell of asphalt in the morning.




     





    Very true. The potential problem I see with a young player is as follows...the inevitable pressure of being labeled by fans, media, teammates as a "can't miss" prospect must be pretty intense to begin with. Regardless of the head on your shoulders. Add to that becoming starting shortstop for the Boston Red Sox at 21 and there is another level of pressure. You are 2months in and having, so far, a great start to your career and the Sox switch you to an unnatural position. Then you almost immediately go into the longest/deepest slump of your young career. The way he responds over the next month or so will be incredibly interesting and possibly highly beneficial to his future growth. Not unlike Mr.Pedroia a few years ago.


     

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from jam789123. Show jam789123's posts

    Re: Xander's 50 point dive

    The trade off for Drew's .133 avg. and "outstanding" defense is well worth it.  Just ask Boras.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Xander's 50 point dive

    Xander has been eaten alive by breaking balls...that's the biggest problem fast-forwarding guys into MLB. That's why pitchers are dominating, that's why you see more No Hitters and 1-Hitters, and that's why averages are down, and that's why Steroids meant a lot in the battle between Pitcher v. Hitter. The leg up is gone and now there are way too many players who aren't ready for MLB in the big leagues....However, Xander will be fine. It will take him a while, but he's got tons of good tools.

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Xander's 50 point dive

    The fast track to MLB by current Sox players is wacky. Betts, Xander, JBJR...it's been get them to the majors as fast as possible. None of this Minors stuff. Lynn and Rice did the Minors just fine. You can still get to MLB with a little more seasoning. 

     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from steven11. Show steven11's posts

    Re: Xander's 50 point dive

    In response to dannycater's comment:

    Xander has been eaten alive by breaking balls...that's the biggest problem fast-forwarding guys into MLB. That's why pitchers are dominating, that's why you see more No Hitters and 1-Hitters, and that's why averages are down, and that's why Steroids meant a lot in the battle between Pitcher v. Hitter. The leg up is gone and now there are way too many players who aren't ready for MLB in the big leagues....However, Xander will be fine. It will take him a while, but he's got tons of good tools.




    Yep, there wasn't enough time for him to be exposed last year when he came up.  Last night may have been a night to put Xander in, that Yankee pitcher was young and threw some meatballs.

     
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