Yankees Expect a Bidding War over Elite WAR Ratings for 2012 FA Tim Wakefield

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxdawg08. Show soxdawg08's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    I would like to see Tek come back in a coaching capacity in 2012. As a player, those days are over for him. It's time to sit down Tek. Thanks for a job well done! 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    *definately* 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    get ready moon, Wake has allowed 4 runs, the sky is falling, quick release him so we can satisfy the fans who can only accept conventional pitchers.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    In Response to Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield:
    [QUOTE]Danny, people like to use race for convenience and in convenient context. In reality, despite slight changes with generation X, more than 99 % of world people live intimate lives that are segregated based on skin color. It is a fact. Ram injected "racist" in his rant, because he doesn't like his favorite player criticized. Of course, his indigant protests about Granderson not measuring up to Ellsbury in the stat book is proof of his own bigotry. OPS is important.
    Posted by softylaw[/QUOTE]

    The stats and facts show Ellsbury to be having a suprior season to Granderson. You are wrong. The race thing you drag into this is simply pathetic.

    Ellsbury gets my support b/c you are so ignorant and wrong when it comes to your sad vendetta against him, not b/c he is my favorite player.


     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from rameakap. Show rameakap's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    Beckett, Papi, Gonzo, and Pedroia are my favorite Red Sox. I prob rank Wake, Tek and Lester over Ells as well, he squeaks into a top 10 list.

    I support all Red Sox players of course, if I had to rank the players that I 'like the least', it would be Lackey, Youk and Paps. Personally I just think their attitudes rube me the wrong way at times. 

    But again, I root like heck for them. I don't trash anyone like Softy pathetically does a dozen guys each year. what a terrible individual our board jester is.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    In Response to Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield:
    [QUOTE]get ready moon, Wake has allowed 4 runs, the sky is falling, quick release him so we can satisfy the fans who can only accept conventional pitchers.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    moon is a reasonable guy who probably has a lot of respect for Wake as I do, but this is a pennant race.  We all want Wake to get his 200th, win but we need to put our team in position to win first and foremost.  If he stays in and finishes well thats great but it's still a risky move.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    Oh, so when Wakefield allowed 8 hits in the last 14 IP prior to this game, he did not put the team in a position to win first and foremost. He did that for the thrill of it? Oh, wait, I see, you are saying that he gets hammered in all starts, and the fact the Sox scored 4 runs during those 14 IP, and 1 tonight in the first, that has nothing to do with putting the team in a "position to win." Oh, by the way, moon, I guess this is back to being a bash Wakefield thread. It's official, craze, not softy is leading the charge.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    craze4sox,

    Wake has been better than is career numbers from 2008 to 2011 and from 2009 to 2011. As Chris Farley would say, "For the love of God!" He had back surgery after 2009. Pitched pretty well as he recovered in 2010, even as he was jerked from starter to the pen 10 times. Of all the healthy starters on this team, he has put up better numbers than all but Beckett and Lester. He is getting paid dirt cheap compared to others doing worse. His percent of Quality starts and near quality starts are among the top of all Sox starters.
    His WHIP is 

    Wake's 15 starts:
                      IP  H  ER BB (comments)
    1) vs Sea  5.2  3  1  1  
    (left with 2 outs and man on 1st: Jenks allowed his runner to score plus 1 more and Wake gets no decision: Sox win anyways)

    2) vs Min  4.1  9  6  4 (started 5 days earlier/pitched relief 2 days before)
    (scored 2 runs on BB, IF hit, GB single and Balk)

    3) vs Cubs  6  7  4  1
     (shut out through 6.2, then two dbls = 1 run)

    4) @ Det   7   5  2  2
     (1 run scores on seeing eye GB single, SB and another seeing eye GB single.)

    5) vs CWS  6  7  4  1
     (shut out through 4.2, then BB, bloop single, SB, Groundout to SS, Gb double down 3B line that could have been fielded by Youk)

    6) @ NYY   5.1  5  5  3
     (Shutout through 4 IP, then 3 runs on BB, PB, 1B, 2B, GB -man to 3rd-Sac Fly, then in 6th 2 outs and BB, and Aceves comes in and allows his run to score.)

    7) @ TB     7   4  1  5
     (Shut out for 4.1 IP then HR, in 6th BB, PB, BB, GB runners advance and Passed Ball allows run to score.)

    8) vs Mil   8   3 2  1
     (2-runo HR in 2nd + solo HR in 7th: no bad luck)

    9) @ Pitt   6   7  5  4
     (shut out for 4.1 IP, and 1B, SB, BB, HR, 2B, GB single for 3 runs, 4th run scores on cheap single to 3B -Youk muffs it, and a 2B to CF that Ellsbury misjudged-could have been caught, then a GB to 2B.)

    10) @ Hou  5.1  11  5  0
     (1st inning: 1B, SB, GB runner to 3B, Sac Fly, 2 runs score in 2nd on 2B, 1B, bunt 1B to 3B, and 2B, in the 5th: GB single, WP, 2B)
     
    11) vs Tor    7    9  3  1
     (3rd inning: swinging bunt single, 1B, GB runners advance, Sac Fly, long 1B)

    12) @ Bal    4.2  9  3  2
     (1st: 2 outs then weak 1B to 3B, hard 1B, then 3B for 2 runs. 5th: 2 Ks, HR, HR, 1B, bloop 1B-could have been caught, BB, 2B clears bases)

    13) vs Sea  6.1  10  7  1
     (1st: HBP & HR, 5th: K, BB, seeing eye GB 1B, 2B scores 1, Wake enters the 7th ahead 11-3. He could have been relieved, but he stays in and allows: 4 runs on 3 singles and HR)

    14) @ CWS  7.0  3  3  2
     (Shutout through 5.1 innings, then bunt single to 3B, Bunt runner to 2B, WP, Sac Fly. 7th inning: BB and HR for 2 runs).

    15) vs Cleve  6.2  5  3  2
     (Shutout through 3IP, then HR, ground ball single, Ground ball 2B, ...2 runs, then in the 7th: 2B, Ground out, WP, K, 2B for 1 run) 

    It's easy to see how Wake could easily have an ERA of about 4.00 or 4.25, but it is what it is.

    I'm not trying to be a Wake apologist. I know he has let up a lot of runs this year. I know every pitcher has some cheap runs scored off them. I just know that Wake has pitched better than his numbers indicate. How much better? Look and judge objectively for yourself.

    1) The Sox are 10-5 in his starts with about the same run support as Lackey (team 10-9 in Lackey's starts).

    2) His WHIP is 1.298, (0.050 below his career average).

    3) His WHIP has fallen for 2 straight years.

    4) His BB/9 rate has been below his career average for 9 of his last 10 seasons (the other year it was just 0.1 above his 3.4 average).

    5) He leads the team in BB/9 rate at 2.5 from 2010 to 2011.

    6) His 6.2 IP per start is 3rd best on the Sox. 

    7) Basically, the only stat that is below is career average is ERA. (As,  I said above his ERA could easily be about 4.00 with just normal luck and a normal amount of his inherited runners not allowed to score.)

    Of course, Wake could decline at any time, but he has had his best results of his entire career after age 41. 

    He still remains the best option as our 5th starter (and perhaps even our 4h starter). 

    The argument that kids are being held back because of Wake is absurd. Douby has been hurt, Tazawa has been hurt, Miller & Weiland have way worse stats than Wake. Tell me what kid should be playing now instead of  Wake. Tell me why you want to put a rookie into the heat of a pennant race. I'm sure Weiland's time here really helped his confidence level. 



     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    After 5 IP, Wakefield has thrown 17 balls tonight. That might be a reason why the Twins are hitting a little bit. Too much control. But you're going to hear about how Salty's passed ball means Tim is out of control, and is causing the basepaths to thunder with his wildness. Career numbers in Minnesota have been poor, as in Texas, but you can bet Tito will set it up for Tim to throw there anyway. Don't want him facing the Yankees, though, a team he throws really well against. More shoddy defense behind Tim as well, but hey, he's getting bombed, right, fans?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    In Response to Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield : moon is a reasonable guy who probably has a lot of respect for Wake as I do, but this is a pennant race.  We all want Wake to get his 200th, win but we need to put our team in position to win first and foremost.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    It should ot be about 200 wins or the Sox win record. It should be about the team winning. I have actually thought Tito has left Wake in too long a few times. I have said I think Wake could use another rest (the extended allstar break being the other) at some point this summer. I know Wake is not an ace. However, he is an invaluable 6th starter filling in admirably for Buch and Dice-K. 

    Why so many of you choose our 6th starter, who has led our team to a 10-5 record) to bash is beyond reason.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    In Response to Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield : It should ot be about 200 wins or the Sox win record. It should be about the team winning. I have actually thought Tito has left Wake in too long a few times. I have said I think Wake could use another rest (the extended allstar break being the other) at some point this summer. I know Wake is not an ace. However, he is an invaluable 6th starter filling in admirably for Buch and Dice-K.  Why so many of you choose our 6th starter, who has led our team to a 10-5 record) to bash is beyond reason.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Not bashing Wake, just thinking as Terry should in the heart of a pennant race.  I agree Wake has been invaluable but those days are far and few between now moon.  Wake as a sixth starter is still a decent option but at this point others could probably have as much or more success moving forward. 




     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    They are not "far and few between". He's better than his career norm. If you insist on focusing on 2010, the year after his back surgery, the year he was jerked from role to role, you still don't have a case.

    Wake has 9 of his 15 starts this year at 3 ERs or under. His "norm" is pitching a good game. As you can see in the game by game summaries, some of his games with more than 3 ERs allowed were games where the pen let up his inherited runners, the opponents scored several runs on cheap hits, or Tito left him in too long. 

    Wake has pitched well. If anything, his bad games are what are "few and far between".
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    In Response to Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield:
    [QUOTE]They are not "far and few between". He's better than his career norm. If you insist on focusing on 2010, the year after his back surgery, the year he was jerked from role to role, you still don't have a case. Wake has 9 of his 15 starts this year at 3 ERs or under. His "norm" is pitching a good game. As you can see in the game by game summaries, some of his games with more than 3 ERs allowed were games where the pen let up his inherited runners, the opponents scored several runs on cheap hits, or Tito left him in too long.  Wake has pitched well. If anything, his bad games are what are "few and far between".
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Ok, moon, I see Wake's possible departure is a sore point with you.

    No problem!
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    In Response to Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield:
    [QUOTE]craze4sox, Wake has been better than is career numbers from 2008 to 2011 and from 2009 to 2011. As Chris Farley would say, "For the love of God!" He had back surgery after 2009. Pitched pretty well as he recovered in 2010, even as he was jerked from starter to the pen 10 times. Of all the healthy starters on this team, he has put up better numbers than all but Beckett and Lester. He is getting paid dirt cheap compared to others doing worse. His percent of Quality starts and near quality starts are among the top of all Sox starters. His WHIP is  Wake's 15 starts:                   IP  H  ER BB (comments) 1) vs Sea  5.2  3  1  1   (left with 2 outs and man on 1st: Jenks allowed his runner to score plus 1 more and Wake gets no decision: Sox win anyways) 2) vs Min  4.1  9  6  4 (started 5 days earlier/pitched relief 2 days before) (scored 2 runs on BB, IF hit, GB single and Balk) 3) vs Cubs  6  7  4  1  (shut out through 6.2, then two dbls = 1 run) 4) @ Det   7   5  2  2  (1 run scores on seeing eye GB single, SB and another seeing eye GB single.) 5) vs CWS  6  7  4  1  (shut out through 4.2, then BB, bloop single, SB, Groundout to SS, Gb double down 3B line that could have been fielded by Youk) 6) @ NYY   5.1  5  5  3  (Shutout through 4 IP, then 3 runs on BB, PB, 1B, 2B, GB -man to 3rd-Sac Fly, then in 6th 2 outs and BB, and Aceves comes in and allows his run to score.) 7) @ TB     7   4  1  5  (Shut out for 4.1 IP then HR, in 6th BB, PB, BB, GB runners advance and Passed Ball allows run to score.) 8) vs Mil   8   3 2  1  (2-runo HR in 2nd + solo HR in 7th: no bad luck) 9) @ Pitt   6   7  5  4  (shut out for 4.1 IP, and 1B, SB, BB, HR, 2B, GB single for 3 runs, 4th run scores on cheap single to 3B -Youk muffs it, and a 2B to CF that Ellsbury misjudged-could have been caught, then a GB to 2B.) 10) @ Hou  5.1  11  5  0  (1st inning: 1B, SB, GB runner to 3B, Sac Fly, 2 runs score in 2nd on 2B, 1B, bunt 1B to 3B, and 2B, in the 5th: GB single, WP, 2B)   11) vs Tor    7    9  3  1  (3rd inning: swinging bunt single, 1B, GB runners advance, Sac Fly, long 1B) 12) @ Bal    4.2  9  3  2  (1st: 2 outs then weak 1B to 3B, hard 1B, then 3B for 2 runs. 5th: 2 Ks, HR, HR, 1B, bloop 1B-could have been caught, BB, 2B clears bases) 13) vs Sea  6.1  10  7  1  (1st: HBP & HR, 5th: K, BB, seeing eye GB 1B, 2B scores 1, Wake enters the 7th ahead 11-3. He could have been relieved, but he stays in and allows: 4 runs on 3 singles and HR) 14) @ CWS  7.0  3  3  2  (Shutout through 5.1 innings, then bunt single to 3B, Bunt runner to 2B, WP, Sac Fly. 7th inning: BB and HR for 2 runs). 15) vs Cleve  6.2  5  3  2  (Shutout through 3IP, then HR, ground ball single, Ground ball 2B, ...2 runs, then in the 7th: 2B, Ground out, WP, K, 2B for 1 run)  It's easy to see how Wake could easily have an ERA of about 4.00 or 4.25, but it is what it is. I'm not trying to be a Wake apologist. I know he has let up a lot of runs this year. I know every pitcher has some cheap runs scored off them. I just know that Wake has pitched better than his numbers indicate. How much better? Look and judge objectively for yourself. 1) The Sox are 10-5 in his starts with about the same run support as Lackey (team 10-9 in Lackey's starts). 2) His WHIP is 1.298, (0.050 below his career average). 3) His WHIP has fallen for 2 straight years. 4) His BB/9 rate has been below his career average for 9 of his last 10 seasons (the other year it was just 0.1 above his 3.4 average). 5) He leads the team in BB/9 rate at 2.5 from 2010 to 2011. 6) His 6.2 IP per start is 3rd best on the Sox.  7) Basically, the only stat that is below is career average is ERA. (As,  I said above his ERA could easily be about 4.00 with just normal luck and a normal amount of his inherited runners not allowed to score.) Of course, Wake could decline at any time, but he has had his best results of his entire career after age 41.  He still remains the best option as our 5th starter (and perhaps even our 4h starter).  The argument that kids are being held back because of Wake is absurd. Douby has been hurt, Tazawa has been hurt, Miller & Weiland have way worse stats than Wake. Tell me what kid should be playing now instead of  Wake. Tell me why you want to put a rookie into the heat of a pennant race. I'm sure Weiland's time here really helped his confidence level.  . 
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Wow. For a moment, I thought this was another Lackey rant.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from REBEL. Show REBEL's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    In Response to Red Sox will not resign Wakefield:
    [QUOTE]My source tells me the Red Sox will not offer Wakefield a contract to pitch until age 46. Smart.
    Posted by softylaw[/QUOTE]

    Stupid!!  Wakes will be back because he is the best bargain in baseball!!
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    I liked craze response to moon when moon beat him like a wicked step-child over the ridiculous statement crazee made about the "few and far between." You know, sort of like intelligent posts by crazee...few and far between.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    In Response to Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield:
    [QUOTE]I liked craze response to moon when moon beat him like a wicked step-child over the ridiculous statement crazee made about the "few and far between." You know, sort of like intelligent posts by crazee...few and far between.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    The more he posts, the more he's exposed.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    I'm wondering if Marty Feldman grabbed abbynormal for craze4sox.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    In Response to Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield : Ok, moon, I see Wake's possible departure is a sore point with you. No problem!
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]


    I don't really even like Wake. If he retires, I'll be fine with it. If Theo offers him a lowball deal and he walks, I will not be happy, but I will understand if he tries to upgrade to a top 2/3 starter type and everyone gets knocked down a notch. I am not sure Theo can find a solid 6th starter at Wake's cost, and chances are we will need even more than 1 quality 6th starter in 2012. Look how we had to trade for Bedard, when he could have been signed cheaply. Will you be here bashing Theo when he fails to find a good 5th starter after someone gets hurt next year?

    My "sore point" is not about Wake staying or going, but rather people not realizing how well Wake is pitching this year as well as how well Wake has pitched since 2007. Being blinded by one stat (ERA) is not an excuse. Many factors go into what a pitcher's ERA is that are beyond the pitcher's control. Wake's season is way better than his 4.92 ERA indicates. We are now 11-5 in his starts. Yes, he has had some good run support in some of those wins, but he has pitched 3 or less ER/start ball in 10 of the 16 starts. At least 2 other starts were not as bad as the ERs allowed indicated. To me, he has pitched well in 70-75% of his 2011 starts. I don't think I'll ever trust one of our current young prospects to do better than that this year or next.  

    If we sign Wake and he stinks next year, we'll only be out about $2-3M, and that rookie will still get a chance. If we had a stud rookie then OK, but we don't. 

    It's not about being a homer. It's not about liking Wake or not. I have been very critical of some Sox players and their performances. It's about defending a player who does not deserve the abuse. It's about correcting inaccuracies and mistruths about Wake's skillset and performance level both now and recently. If fans were claiming Wake was the ace, I'd be "correcting" them too.


     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    In Response to Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield : Not bashing Wake, just thinking as Terry should in the heart of a pennant race.  I agree Wake has been invaluable but those days are far and few between now moon.  Wake as a sixth starter is still a decent option but at this point others could probably have as much or more success moving forward. 
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    He might be right here. I see pitchers all the time allow 16 hits over a 21 IP span over 3 starts. Happens for every team in MLB. Especially 6th starters.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    In Response to Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield:
    [QUOTE]Ellsbury is having an MVP caliber yr No, Granderson, Bautista, Agon, CC are having an MVP caliber year. Salty's recent improvement is quite nice. Varitek should not be given a 2012 roster spot.  
    Posted by softylaw[/QUOTE]

    Ellsbury is MVP, Wake is 6-4, and Tek is the best backup in BB.

    Great year for the RS.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    moon, let's face it. Wakefield is literally pitching to save his Sox career. If he doesn't throw an outstanding start or a quality start (or what he does more often than not), he is going to get thrown under a bus. What is truly amazing about Wakefield is that the fans are abusive toward him on this board, and don't even comprehend what he is doing for the Sox...helping the team win. They are absorbed with the 200 number getting in the way of the Sox winning, but they can't seem to understand that Wakefield is saving the Sox staff with Clay out and Dice-K done. And the fact remains, he is the only SP I know who could lose his spot in the rotation if Theo makes a waiver deal. That's how his own organization treats him as well. Tito would not be shaking his hands much if Wakefield went out there and gave up 7 ER and couldn't get out of the 3rd inning. He'd be sent to the pen faster than you can say Wasdin. But he keeps on chugging along. His performances speak for him. Anyone who actually looked at the overall performances would see a quality starter, not a fossil.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    I tell you what. If he is not back next year, and the Sox are rotating No. 5 starters like a sugar addict kid with a pez dispenser, you can bet there will be some fans who actually say, "damn, where is Wakefield when you need him." If he was with almost any other team, there would be no talk of 6th starter. He would be in the rotation without question, and it's up to him. If he wants to start for a NL team next season, he's getting a contract. People want pitchers like Wakefield, guys you can rely on consistently.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    And no he is not anyone's ace, but he's sure as hell can take anybody's No. 5 spot right now.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Red Sox will not resign Wakefield

    Maybe they'll end up rushing Wake back to town like Mirabelli was.
     

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