Your call: Should Francona have used Bard in the 8th or Papelbon for a 2-inning save?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mr.Bump. Show Mr.Bump's posts

    Your call: Should Francona have used Bard in the 8th or Papelbon for a 2-inning save?

    Do you agree with Peter Abraham's following statements?
    1. You don't use your closer for a two-inning save on May 21.
    2. But the manager of a $161 million team is charged with winning a championship, not one game in May.
    Is a game in May not as important as a game in September?

    Daniel Bard appeared in 22 of the first 44 games this season, a pace that would give him 81 on the season — eight more than last season.

    He also has pitched 23 innings, more than all but five relievers in the American League. That's a pace that would give him 85 this season — 9.1 more than last season.

    Eight appearances and 9.1 innings may not sound like a lot. But Bard is 26 and has been pitching in relief for only four seasons. If you look at the Red Sox as a business, and that is very much what they are, he is one of the company's most valuable assets.

    To put it in perspective, the only AL reliever who appeared in more than 75 game last season was lefty specialist Randy Choate. The only one who pitched more than 79 innings was Tony Pena of the White Sox. He has a 5.60 ERA this season.

    Bard also had pitched four times in the previous eight days, throwing 95 pitches. So the decision was made before the game to rest him for a second straight night. Deciding so beforehand, Terry Francona said, takes the emotion out of it.

    “It’ll do him a world of good,” Francona said. “It didn’t do us a world of good tonight.”

    Not one bit. Given the responsibility of protecting a 3-1 lead, Matt Albers could not get an out. The Cubs sent 12 men to the plate in the eighth inning and scored eight runs. It was the first time this season the Sox had a lead after seven innings and didn't hold it.

    It was a bit of a circus as the Sox committed three errors and looked as silly as those all-white throwback uniforms some overeager marketing whiz decided were a good idea.

    Albers was a good choice, He had a 1.56 ERA and a 1.10 WHIP in 11 appearances this season. He also was the only choice. Bard was out. Scott Atchison also was out, having thrown three innings on Friday. Dan Wheeler and Rich Hill had already been used.

    That left Albers, Franklin Morales and Jonathan Papelbon.

    You don't use your closer for a two-inning save on May 21. Morales had arrived in town the previous day having thrown one pitch over the last week. It was Albers, do or die.

    Francona will take the heat on this one. It's your call whether you think he should or not. But the manager of a $161 million team is charged with winning a championship, not one game in May.

    If we presume the Red Sox are going to be contention in September, do you want Bard feeling like his arm is hanging by a thread or ready to go?

    Bard said he wanted to pitch. But he admitted a few seconds later that was his competitive nature talking and not common sense. The manager is the guy in charge of common sense. And sometimes that means Matt Albers in the eighth inning and sometimes that means a loss.

    If the alternative is Bard getting an MRI down the road and visiting Dr. James Andrews for a second opinion, I'll take the loss.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Your call: Should Francona have used Bard in the 8th or Papelbon for a 2-inning save?

    I agree with peter on this one. Albers had been pitching great for them. Id rather not over use Bard..Hes too young and too important.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from piersall. Show piersall's posts

    Re: Your call: Should Francona have used Bard in the 8th or Papelbon for a 2-inning save?

    If Albers had pitched well, all these expert opinions would be absent.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from playball01. Show playball01's posts

    Re: Your call: Should Francona have used Bard in the 8th or Papelbon for a 2-inning save?

    1. You don't use your closer for a two-inning save on May 21.
    2. But the manager of a $161 million team is charged with winning a championship, not one game in May.
    Is a game in May not as important as a game in September?


    Abraham is correct on this one. You don't burn out your closer and set-up guy in May "OR" games in "September" may not matter and you can write off hopes of a championship!!
     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from fir.eballer58. Show fir.eballer58's posts

    Re: Your call: Should Francona have used Bard in the 8th or Papelbon for a 2-inning save?

    Then why did Francona allow Beckett to throw 125 pitches against the Angels on April 21? And most people on this site didn't have a problem with that. However,

    there was no reason, whatsoever to push Beckett to capacity in a game in April.

    Later, we learned that there might have been real consequences to Beckett’s unusually high pitch count on April 21st.  That it might have affected or even hurt Beckett somehow. 

    On Sunday, May 1st, the Red Sox told the media that Beckett’s next start would be pushed back until they see how Beckett does in his side session on Monday.  The earliest he’ll pitch is Wednesday,May 4, which would give him six days’ rest rather than four.

    Pitching coach Curt Young said Beckett is not injured but also said the team “just want(s) to make sure his body is feeling good and healthy.”

    It was a vague statement.  The team appeared to indicate, without openly admitting it out loud, that Beckett had showed some physical signs of concern as a result of his 125-pitch effort on April 21st.  The Boston Globe’s Peter Abraham posted a short story that stated that Beckett’s 125-pitch outing “has apparently taken a toll on him.”  

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from FenwayChuck. Show FenwayChuck's posts

    Re: Your call: Should Francona have used Bard in the 8th or Papelbon for a 2-inning save?

    In Response to Re: Your call: Should Francona have used Bard in the 8th or Papelbon for a 2-inning save?:
    If Albers had pitched well, all these expert opinions would be absent.
    Posted by piersall

    IF TITO had Morales warming up before the game was gone.. some would accept it...

    IF TITO had left Hillin to see how he did after striking out the two batters he faced- it would have been logical.


    SIMPLY what happened was that TITO flipped a coin, and he got the tail end.

    He was not smart enough to fight his way out of a paper bag, or fiund his way out of a one-way alley.  He chose to REST BARD for another day.  He did not want to overuse PAPS.... fine both of those work.... if the manager is savvy.  He put Wheeler, in and the guy was doing well.. Why not let him finish the 7th?  I mean you knew that you did not want to use one of your best pitchers, and you had a guy doing well..he was already in the middle of the inning, why not see if he could get the next batter out?   OKAY TITO DECIDES HILL IS A BETTER MATCH UP....   Sure....  SO he puts hill in.. Hill proceeds to strike out two batters in a row- His stuff is moving he is in the ZONE with movement, and tough to hit....  WHY not have him start the 8th?  Oh yeah because HILL is not an 8th inning reliver according to one poster.  SO now you have three players left to work with.  YOU will not use PAPS unless you have a lead in the 9th... OKAY.  SO why did he not start with Albers and have his UNKNOWN quantity up in the pen?    We left bard out because allowing him to pitch after a days rest may have meant he had an injury and had to get an MRI three weeks from next Monday?   While I am okay with protecting an investment.. I think the apologists are just willing to accept any excuse from TITO.... IT WAS POOR MANAGEMENT!   That is okay though..... at the end of the year when they look and the sox are 1 game out we shall have them eliminate this loss because it was from a game in MAY.... ASININE..  PURELY ASININE!

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from don444. Show don444's posts

    Re: Your call: Should Francona have used Bard in the 8th or Papelbon for a 2-inning save?

    In Response to Your call: Should Francona have used Bard in the 8th or Papelbon for a 2-inning save?:
    Do you agree with Peter Abraham's following statements? 1. You don't use your closer for a two-inning save on May 21. 2. But the manager of a $161 million team is charged with winning a championship, not one game in May. Is a game in May not as important as a game in September? By Peter Abraham, Globe Staff Daniel Bard appeared in 22 of the first 44 games this season, a pace that would give him 81 on the season — eight more than last season. He also has pitched 23 innings, more than all but five relievers in the American League. That's a pace that would give him 85 this season — 9.1 more than last season. Eight appearances and 9.1 innings may not sound like a lot. But Bard is 26 and has been pitching in relief for only four seasons. If you look at the Red Sox as a business, and that is very much what they are, he is one of the company's most valuable assets. To put it in perspective, the only AL reliever who appeared in more than 75 game last season was lefty specialist Randy Choate. The only one who pitched more than 79 innings was Tony Pena of the White Sox. He has a 5.60 ERA this season. Bard also had pitched four times in the previous eight days, throwing 95 pitches. So the decision was made before the game to rest him for a second straight night. Deciding so beforehand, Terry Francona said, takes the emotion out of it. “It’ll do him a world of good,” Francona said. “It didn’t do us a world of good tonight.” Not one bit. Given the responsibility of protecting a 3-1 lead, Matt Albers could not get an out. The Cubs sent 12 men to the plate in the eighth inning and scored eight runs. It was the first time this season the Sox had a lead after seven innings and didn't hold it. It was a bit of a circus as the Sox committed three errors and looked as silly as those all-white throwback uniforms some overeager marketing whiz decided were a good idea. Albers was a good choice, He had a 1.56 ERA and a 1.10 WHIP in 11 appearances this season. He also was the only choice. Bard was out. Scott Atchison also was out, having thrown three innings on Friday. Dan Wheeler and Rich Hill had already been used. That left Albers, Franklin Morales and Jonathan Papelbon. You don't use your closer for a two-inning save on May 21. Morales had arrived in town the previous day having thrown one pitch over the last week. It was Albers, do or die. Francona will take the heat on this one. It's your call whether you think he should or not. But the manager of a $161 million team is charged with winning a championship, not one game in May. If we presume the Red Sox are going to be contention in September, do you want Bard feeling like his arm is hanging by a thread or ready to go? Bard said he wanted to pitch. But he admitted a few seconds later that was his competitive nature talking and not common sense. The manager is the guy in charge of common sense. And sometimes that means Matt Albers in the eighth inning and sometimes that means a loss. If the alternative is Bard getting an MRI down the road and visiting Dr. James Andrews for a second opinion, I'll take the loss.
    Posted by Mr.Bump


    You hit the nail on the head !
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from playball01. Show playball01's posts

    Re: Your call: Should Francona have used Bard in the 8th or Papelbon for a 2-inning save?

    In Response to Re: Your call: Should Francona have used Bard in the 8th or Papelbon for a 2-inning save?:
    Then why did Francona allow Beckett to throw 125 pitches against the Angels on April 21? And most people on this site didn't have a problem with that. However, there was no reason, whatsoever to push Beckett to capacity in a game in April. Later, we learned that there might have been real consequences to Beckett’s unusually high pitch count on April 21st.  That it might have affected or even hurt Beckett somehow.  On Sunday, May 1st, the Red Sox told the media that Beckett’s next start would be pushed back until they see how Beckett does in his side session on Monday.  The earliest he’ll pitch is Wednesday,May 4, which would give him six days’ rest rather than four. Pitching coach Curt Young said Beckett is not injured but also said the team “just want(s) to make sure his body is feeling good and healthy.” It was a vague statement.  The team appeared to indicate, without openly admitting it out loud, that Beckett had showed some physical signs of concern as a result of his 125-pitch effort on April 21st.  The Boston Globe’s Peter Abraham posted a short story that stated that Beckett’s 125-pitch outing “has apparently taken a toll on him.”  
    Posted by fir.eballer58


    All this post does is support the argument that Bard and Papelbon shouldn't be put in a position to burn out early in the season. What you have failed to understand is that Beckett is called upon to pitch every 5th day but for some reason there are those that believe that Bard and/or Papelbon should be available to pitch every day.

    Maybe you can make the argument that relievers only throw a limited amount of pitches and only throw for an inning or 2 but many that have never pitched at any level fail to understand the warm up/stretching out process necessary "Before" entering the game. No pitcher can be expected to go through the complete process on a daily basis without the increased risk of injury.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Your call: Should Francona have used Bard in the 8th or Papelbon for a 2-inning save?

    Agreed without question. Also, history has shown that when Paps is brought on in the 8th, he's not nearly as effective in the 9th.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from FenwayChuck. Show FenwayChuck's posts

    Re: Your call: Should Francona have used Bard in the 8th or Papelbon for a 2-inning save?

    The SIMPLE fact is that TITO had "TWO" count them...1....2... Pitchers he had called on earlier in the evening that did rather well....

    He called on Wheeler, and things went good.... so he pulled him with one out in the 7th.. (after 4 outs) WHY??????????????????????????????????? Wheeler had thrown 19 pitches, and walked one batter.  WHY WAS HE PULLED?

    He put in Rich HILL with one out in the 7th inning......   OKAY.....  He is using yet another bullet in his depleted bullpen.  RICH HILL proceeds to strike out two of three batters he pitches to.  This ends the inning.  Hill has thrown just 17 pitches..... WHY is he Pulled?


    Then came ALBERS.... YUCK....  3 hits 2 walks and error- he threw 31 pitches.....  30% more than the TWO guys who were doing well.  However he was allowed to continue.
     6 runs later.......
    Now we get MORALES.... who Tito has chosen to use as a CRUTCH... He is (UNKNOWN QUANTITY).....  he is the one to blame for a fool not realizing he had a depleted pen, and needed to use WHEELER for the utmost time.. and/or HILL for the utmost time (if they had a good performance).  NOPE... he went to the guy that he trusted..... and when that guy was not good.. he continured to Trust him, and when it got worse, he continued to trust him, and when he just plain SUCKED.. he continued to trust him.... because he had an UNKNOWN QUANTITY in the pen.  SO at this point TITO had TWO CHOICES.... 1) The SUCK-O-Meter (Albers) or 2) an UNKNOWN Quantity (Morales).  He chose to keep going with ALBERS.....  not like MORALES could do any worse though was it? 

    Someone said- Well MORALES came in and gave up an immediate Double so he was not the answer.......  YES HE DID.... What did he come into?  He came into that mess pitched two innings gave up 2 hits and a walk and NO earned runs....  Apparently the Cubs were too tired to run the bases anymore so they could not earn their runs while he was there. He threw 32 Pitches and 24 of them were for strikes.

    Would Morales have been the answer if called on earlier?.... NO ONE KNOWS..... but most knew that ALBERS was not the answer as soon as he had pitched to the second batter.   NO ONE was up in the BP (Morales) until after 5 runs had scored. When he was gotten up he was rushed (Warmup) and gotten into the game- THIS IS TITO's FAULT.
    Pulling 2 Pitchers with good stuff.. IS TITO's FAULT!
    "IF" this team fails to make the playoffs by a game or two- THAT WILL BE TITO's FAULT!

    He could have protected Bard/Paps..... that was just an excuse given so that the people who are too ignorant to look into stuff would be placated..... it was YOUR PLACEBO!
    TITO IS AT FAULT FOR THIS LOSS.... and all wins/losses count the same in the standings at the end of the year.  It is NO big deal that they are not in first at this point..... it is a BIG DEAL that he gave a way a game that could have been won.... without any exposure to the people he wanted to rest.


     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Your call: Should Francona have used Bard in the 8th or Papelbon for a 2-inning save?

    Good thing we called up Bowden

    Francona was probably saving him for Wake's start.  Which is insane.  What if we are losing that game?  You gotta cash in when you have a chance to win!!!!!!!!

    Terrible managing...classic Francona.....he's done this before and he'll do it again.....
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from FenwayChuck. Show FenwayChuck's posts

    Re: Your call: Should Francona have used Bard in the 8th or Papelbon for a 2-inning save?

    The sad thing is that the PRESS has you believeing that TITO had only two choices.....

    GIve up the game...

    or-

    Take a chance of injuring Bard/Papelbon.

    That is just not true....
    Aceves did great- Came out after 86 pitches...56 for strike.... pretty good ratio there...  However, being he was a reliever until recently.... probably a good idea.

    Then he chose to put Wheeler in....  He got 4 outs from wheeler on 19 pitches... with one BB....   WHY IS HE PULLED? ....  WHy not extend him a few more pitches?  19?????? when your BP is depleted??? Really????? When he is doing well?????

    Then he puts in HILL... to end the 7th inning.... He gives up a hit, then strikes out the next two batters.....  LOOKS GOOD, stuff is moving....   he gets the between innings rest.....  He has thrown what .... OH 17 PITCHES.... things going well..... WHY PULL HIM?????? With a depleted bullpen you are going to pull a second guy who is doing well?  REALLY????? WHY??????

    Then ALbers comes in..... he is allowed to trudge along hit after hit, walk after walk, error..... 31 Pitches...... 6 runs......  NO ONE UP IN THE BULLPEN until 5 RUNS have scored.....



    THIS wasn't a case of would I rather have had BArd come in or PAPS pitch the two innings.......   It was a case of a manager not having a CLUE.  he removbed 3 pitchers who were doing well, to get to his chosen one then allowed them to STINK until the game was well out of hand.  BOWDEN? MORALES?.... all they needed to do was make it through one inning without giving up the farm.... PAPS could have pitched the 9th if it was a save possibility..... 1 INNING and TITO allowed the guy to stink. 

    HE MISMANAGED HIS TEAM!!!!!... Now they have one less win- which may or may not force them to make moves later in the year (with the roster) trying to get better and catch up.  It also may or may not be the difference in making the playoffs.... but one thing it was is MISMANAGEMENT!
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from newenglanderinexile. Show newenglanderinexile's posts

    Re: Your call: Should Francona have used Bard in the 8th or Papelbon for a 2-inning save?

    In Response to Re: Your call: Should Francona have used Bard in the 8th or Papelbon for a 2-inning save?:
    The sad thing is that the PRESS has you believeing that TITO had only two choices..... GIve up the game... or- Take a chance of injuring Bard/Papelbon. That is just not true.... Aceves did great- Came out after 86 pitches...56 for strike.... pretty good ratio there...  However, being he was a reliever until recently.... probably a good idea. Then he chose to put Wheeler in....  He got 4 outs from wheeler on 19 pitches... with one BB....   WHY IS HE PULLED? ....  WHy not extend him a few more pitches?  19?????? when your BP is depleted??? Really????? When he is doing well????? Posted by FenwayChuck


    Wheeler had just come off the 15-day disabled list.  He had been hurt, injured.  Four outs was a reasonable limit for someone's first outing after a period of being out with an injury, that is having been hurt, that is not having pitched in two weeks because of having an injury.  Unlike you, Francona has to think of preserving his bullpen over an entire season.  Therefore he thinks it is important not to overextend relief pitchers that have recently been injured or hurt. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Your call: Should Francona have used Bard in the 8th or Papelbon for a 2-inning save?

    No.

    Abraham's explanation makes sense.  Last night it was all Albers and he just couldn't pull it off.   I was really torqued when it happened, but not after I read the explanation. 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from eggplants. Show eggplants's posts

    Re: Your call: Should Francona have used Bard in the 8th or Papelbon for a 2-inning save?

                             Andrew and Chuck, Absolutely right in your analysis. Poor pre game planning with the pitching  coach on a way to use shorthanded BP. No Wake,no Bard only Hill and Wheeler available with a new guy who hadn't thrown a pitch in a week and a half. The way it looked was he,"T", couldn't wait to get to Albers. If Albers couldn't bridge to PaPs so be it, we'll take the loss. And that's what happened.   He has his favorites and Albers has become one. After Albers there is only Morales. Better believe he didn't want to go there but he short sighted himself with the way he used Wheeler and Hill. Again the Commander manages to pull defeat from the jaws of victory.  
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxSoldRed. Show SoxSoldRed's posts

    Re: Your call: Should Francona have used Bard in the 8th or Papelbon for a 2-inning save?

    What Peter completely misses in this loaded fluff article is the fact that no one was warming to be ready in case Alby melted down. Morales was not ready, with Tito tipping his hand by saying, pre-game, he wanted to get Morales feet wet in a mop up situation. His plan worked brilliantly.

    Tito makes millions to take the heat. Not using Bard and Papelbon was a red herring. He absoultely bungled the situation by not having another arm warmed up if Alby melted down.

    It's one thing to use the resources properly and still lose. Another, entirely, to get exposed by a low tide and have the other available option not ready to go.
     
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